The Han people and other Chinese ethnic groups in wuxia

[junzi]

In DGSD, Xiao Feng met this Jurchen guy, Wanyan Aguda. Later he became sworn brothers with the Liao Emperor Yelu Hongji.

What I am curious about is, later on in LOCH/ROCH, Wanyan seems to have become a Liao surname (Wanyan Honglie et al) and Yelu, a Mongolian one (Yelu Chucai et al). Were these surnames common to a few races? Or was this the result of conquering weaker territories?

Thanks.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeh Lut was the name of the ruling Khitan clan. This family ruled the Liao Empire of DGSD.

Yeun Nan was the name of the ruling Juchen clan. This family ruled the Jin Empire of LOCH.

It's that simple.

[junzi]

So the Yelus later moved to Mongolia?

I always assumed the Jins and the Liaos were one and the same.

So who set up the Qing Dynasty?

[Ken Cheng]

So the Yelus later moved to Mongolia?

Yes and no. The survivors of the Yeh Lut royal family fled west after their Liao Empire was destroyed by the Juchen (who then founded the Jin Empire). Some of them founded a Central Asian empire known as the Kara-Khitai Empire, which was later conquered by Genghis Khan's Mongols. Others, such as Yeh Lut Chai's father Yeh Lut Chor Choi (who was an actual historic figure), became vassals of Genghis Khan and helped the Khan in his conquest of the Jin.

While the Jurchens set up a Liao empire (but why would they use a name of a rival race)?

They didn't; the Juchens' empire in China was known as "Jin," ("gold") which was superior to the Khitans' "Liao." ("iron")

I always assumed the Jins and the Liaos were one and the same.

Oh, heck no. The Juchen and the Khitan were mortal enemies. It was the Juchen Jin Empire that destroyed the Khitan Liao Empire.

So who set up the Qing Dynasty?

The same Juchens that established the Jin Empire during Sung times, but by the end of the Ming Dynasty, they were called Manchurians.

[junzi]

While the Jurchens set up a Liao empire (but why would they use a name of a rival race)?

I deleted the above quote just as you were typing your second reply cos I realized that I was confused. :S

Anyway thanks Ken for enlightening me!

Am inspired to go do a module on Central/East Asian history if it's offered in uni.

[Suet Seung]

Hm...What about the surname of the Ching Dynasty's royal family? Is the Ching from the 2nd word in their four word surname? Did that surname have any history before their rule?

[Ken Cheng]

Hm...What about the surname of the royal family of the Ching Dynasty? Is the Ching from the 2nd word in their four word surname? Did that surname have any history before their rule?

That, I don't know, but it certainly wasn't the Yeun Nan clan that had led the Juchen during the 12th and early 13th Century.

This Wikipedia article might shed some additional light.

[Whsie]

Hm...What about the surname of the Ching Dynasty's royal family? Is the Ching from the 2nd word in their four word surname? Did that surname have any history before their rule?

You mean Qing Dynasty from 1644-1912?

The Taizu was Nurhaci all the way to Gwangxu with 12 emperors. Nurhaci, Huang Taji, Sunzhi, Kangxi, Yongzheng, Qianlong, JiaQing, Daoguang, XianFeng, Tongzhi, Gwangxu, Puyi.
Nurhaci made the surname Ai Xin Jue Luo (Love Heart Jue Luo)

[Suet Seung]

Woah, so the Jins really made a come back after so many centuries.

But could this be? The early Jins does not look like the later Jins/Manchurians. Were the ones ruling from a different tribe or clan? It seems their styles of clothing and hairstyle are so different. Was it just an updated look?

You mean Qing Dynasty from 1644-1912?

The Taizu was Nurhaci all the way to Gwangxu with 12 emperors.
Nurhaci made the surname Ai Xin Jue Luo (Love Heart Jue Luo)

Oh! I see. Thanks

[Whsie]

Woah, so the Jins really made a come back after so many centuries.

But could this be? The early Jins does not look like the later Jins/Manchurians. Were the ones ruling from a different tribe or clan? It seems their styles of clothing and hairstyle are so different. Was it just an updated look?

Same ancestors. But different ruling faimly.

[Suet Seung]

About Emperor Puyi , Did he die young? or Was he an adult ruling for a very short time period before the new government revolution took over?

[Ken Cheng]

Woah, so the Jins really made a come back after so many centuries.

The Manchurians who founded the Qing Dynasty were also much more successful than their 12th/13th Century Jin counterparts. The Juchen who founded the Jin Empire were never able to conquer southern China, and their occupation of northern China lasted only about 100 years before the Juchen themselves were vanquished by the Mongols. The Qing Dynasty, in contrast, ruled the entirety of China (including Mongolia and Tibet) and lasted nearly 300 years until 1911.

[Whsie]

About Emperor Puyi , Did he die young? or Was he an adult ruling for a very short time period before the new government revolution took over?

Revolutionary government just took over. Sun Yet San! However, he was soon kicked off by Yuan Shi Kai who created his own mini dynasty that lasted only his generation. Then Sun Yet San came back. And then Jian Jie Shi took over later.

[Whsie]

The Manchurians who founded the Qing Dynasty were also much more successful than their 12th/13th Century Jin counterparts. The Juchen who founded the Jin Empire were never able to conquer southern China, and their occupation of northern China lasted only about 100 years before the Juchen themselves were vanquished by the Mongols. The Qing Dynasty, in contrast, ruled the entirety of China (including Mongolia and Tibet), and lasted nearly 300 years until 1911.

Not to mention much better rulers. Qing Dynasty IMO is the 3rd best dynasty behind the Tang and Han. Qing had Huang Taji, Kangxi, Yongzheng, and Qianlong as decent rulers. Huang Taji died too early before he could take out his reforms. Kangxi was the one that stablized the country and eliminated the majority of the enemy. Yongzheng was the one that took out the corruptness of the government and made good reforms that strengthened the economy. Qianlong was the one that just took everything his ancestors gave him and rule the country. Qianlong also expanded the borders to its peak. However, Qianlong final 20 years of his 60 year reign was marked with corruptness returning most noticealby Heshen. And from that point on, the dynasty declined.

[dgfds01]

You mean Qing Dynasty from 1644-1912?

The Taizu was Nurhaci all the way to Gwangxu with 12 emperors. Nurhaci, Huang Taji, Sunzhi, Kangxi, Yongzheng, Qianlong, JiaQing, Daoguang, XianFeng, Tongzhi, Gwangxu, Puyi.
Nurhaci made the surname Ai Xin Jue Luo (Love Heart Jue Luo)

The name Aisin-Gioro is really a clan-name, not a surname.

It is worth noting that Aisin means gold in Manchurian, which is Jin in Chinese (ie Jin dynasty). Gioro means clan. So Aisin-Gioro means 'Gold Clan'. It may be that Nurhaci deliberately added Aisin to the clan-name in recognition of the former Jin Dynasty. Whether this is true is disputed.

Anyway, some descendants of the Aisin-Gioro clan changed their surname to Jin after the fall of the Qing Dynasty. One of them was Puyi's (the last emperor) younger brother Puren. He changed his name to Jin Youzhi.

[Ken Cheng]

About Emperor Puyi , Did he die young? or Was he an adult ruling for a very short time period before the new government revolution took over?

Puyi abdicated the throne before he was in his teens, but lived in China until 1967. Although he was no longer emperor, he was allowed to live in luxury at the imperial palace until he was in his twenties. He spent the 1920s and 1930s as a young playboy in Shanghai.

He also spent a few years in prison after the Communists took over, and ended his days as a gardener.

The 1987 film THE LAST EMPEROR was a fairly good biopic on Puyi.

[S Beaver]

Yes and no. The survivors of the Yeh Lut royal family fled west after their Liao Empire was destroyed by the Juchen (who then founded the Jin Empire). Some of them founded a Central Asian empire known as the Kara-Khitai Empire, which was later conquered by Genghis Khan's Mongols. Others, such as Yeh Lut Chai's father Yeh Lut Chor Choi (who was an actual historic figure), became vassals of Genghis Khan and helped the Khan in his conquest of the Jin.

why did he end up fighting against the mongols in ROCH?

funny how in dgsd it was agianst the khitan, in loch it was against the jin, then in roch, it's khitan+jin against mongol :P

[Whsie]

that is how chinese history worked.

During North Song, the main enemy was the Khitans. And the Khitans usually beat the Song. Khitan>Song in army.

Later, the Manchuranians in the north and the Song in the south trapped up the Khitans and defeated them. Unfortunetly, the Manchuranians became their own empire- the Jin.

So for 2/3 of South Song, the main enemy was the Jin. At first, there was success with Yue Fei as the main general, but when Song Gaozong (1st emperor of South Song) killed Yue Fei for VERY stupid reasons, the Song started losing every battle again. So overall speaking- Jin>Song in army.

It was later that the Mongols with the Song together that the Jin were completly destroyed. The Mongols gave lots of damage to Jin when it was Genghis Khan, but it was his son Ogodei that finished the job and completly destroyed Jin.

Well, guess what? Mongols now start fighting the Song dynasty. And as we probably can already guess, the Song also clearly was weaker. So, Mongols>Song in army for the 3rd time.

It would be Khublai Khan in the end that destroyed the Song dynasty. And note: Khublai Khan was also the one that destroyed Dali.

I think you can say that Song STINKS at army warfare since it never won.

[immakiku]

why did he end up fighting against the mongols in ROCH?

funny how in dgsd it was agianst the khitan, in loch it was against the jin, then in roch, it's khitan+jin against mongol :P

Yelu Qi came to the Song's side because his family didn't get along with the ruling mongols. Also, his official alliance was to GJ/HR/party in the wuxia world, I thought.

[immakiku]

Wow after reading that post above mine it seems like Song's always been on the defensive (in need of repelling invasion). Only come Ming did its people rule themselves, and then Qing took that away again?