Long Distance Attacks in XAJH and their triviality

[Ren Wo Xing]

I agree, but again, with the 20 years thing, I don't think FQY expected LHC to come across the likes of RWX and co. And it's absolutely true that he would've had to practice 20 years in order to 'normally' compete. Remember, in a 'real' battle, RWX would've trounced LHC handily, if by simply roaring he was able to knock LHC out; if it weren't for the fact he liked him, RWX could've simply killed him then.

Vs the Great Ying Yang Palm, a FOURTH tier fighter, again, if it weren't for the fact that he had all that energy inside him, he should've died, or come close to death.

LHC, in essence, had the luck to engage in several EXTREMELY high risk situations and come out alive, and each time he did so, his knowledge of DG9J increased immeasurably in the area he fought in. Think of his proficiency w/DG9J before and after he fought RWX; judging from the books description, I'd say it increased enormously. I don't think that it would've taken him nearly so long as to defeat Feng Buping after he fought RWX, as it did the first time. The novel states that DG9J's power increases with your opponents power; and since LHC had the luck to run into powerful opponents that, for some reason or another, didn't kill him, his DG9J's power increased much more than it would have normally.

Especially considering that FQY supposedly had sworn to never again touch a sword after he came back to the Huashan after the Qi/Sword fratricide, I don't think FQY had nearly as much experience fighting top-tier martial artists like RWX, and definitely no one like DFBB.

[bliss]

Just because Feng Qingyang mastered Dugu 9 Jian, doesn't mean he could beat people of DFBB's level.

That's not what I'm arguing ... I'm comparing the relative jump in martial arts level LHC received from ~1 year mastery to what FQY's martial arts level could be at with ~ 40-50 years and high rate internal energy.

There's certain passages in the first 20 chapters that as far as i remember may imply that LHC has surpassed FCY in DG9J, i will try to find that and dig that out.

I've looked over the novel and this is the only passage that suggest something similar but not really ...

"再拆四十余招，令狐沖出招越來越是得心應手，許多妙詣竟是風清揚也未曾指點過的，遇上了這敵手的精奇劍法 ，“獨孤九劍”中自然而然的生出相應招數，与之抗御。"

"After another forty moves or so, Linghu Chong found himself fighting with greater and greater facility. Many of the clever knacks he used were ones that even Fang Qingyang had never mentioned before. On encountering the brilliant sword moves from his opponent, the “Dugu Nine Swords” spontaneously originated corresponding moves to counter."

This only mentions that he was using parts of DG9J that FQY hadn't gone over with him. This doesn't seem too out of the ordinary since FQY mentioned that LHC would eventually have to feel out the sword art for himself.

Here is some more evidence that FQY learned DG9J after leaving Huashan and going into retirement...

"Your Master probably has never seen the moves of the Dugu Nine Swords, but he sure has heard about the name Dugu Nine Swords before. He just doesn’t want to mention it to you, that’s all,” Feng Qingyang said.

FQY was YBQ's martial uncle. If FQY knew Dugu 9 Jian during his yeas in Huashan, YBQ would've definitely seen the moves before. This seems to be what FQY is suggesting above.

[Ren Wo Xing]

""Your Master probably has never seen the moves of the Dugu Nine Swords, but he sure has heard about the name Dugu Nine Swords before. He just doesn’t want to mention it to you, that’s all,” Feng Qingyang said.

FQY was YBQ's martial uncle. If FQY knew Dugu 9 Jian during his yeas in Huashan, YBQ would've definitely seen the moves before. This seems to be what FQY is suggesting above."

If we take that as true, and

"Feng Qingyang shook his head. “You are Yue Buqun’s apprentice. I really shouldn’t teach you any Kung Fu. That day…that day…I swore an oath that I would never fight anyone in the remaining of my life."

That would mean that FQY never fought anyone after learning DG9J.

[bliss]

I agree, but again, with the 20 years thing, I don't think FQY expected LHC to come across the likes of RWX and co. And it's absolutely true that he would've had to practice 20 years in order to 'normally' compete. Remember, in a 'real' battle, RWX would've trounced LHC handily, if by simply roaring he was able to knock LHC out; if it weren't for the fact he liked him, RWX could've simply killed him then.

Vs the Great Ying Yang Palm, a FOURTH tier fighter, again, if it weren't for the fact that he had all that energy inside him, he should've died, or come close to death.

LHC, in essence, had the luck to engage in several EXTREMELY high risk situations and come out alive, and each time he did so, his knowledge of DG9J increased immeasurably in the area he fought in. Think of his proficiency w/DG9J before and after he fought RWX; judging from the books description, I'd say it increased enormously. I don't think that it would've taken him nearly so long as to defeat Feng Buping after he fought RWX, as it did the first time. The novel states that DG9J's power increases with your opponents power; and since LHC had the luck to run into powerful opponents that, for some reason or another, didn't kill him, his DG9J's power increased much more than it would have normally.

Especially considering that FQY supposedly had sworn to never again touch a sword after he came back to the Huashan after the Qi/Sword fratricide, I don't think FQY had nearly as much experience fighting top-tier martial artists like RWX, and definitely no one like DFBB.

Hmm very good points. But several counter-points ... LHC got into many high-risk situations and was luucky to get out with more experience mostly when he had no internal energy. After he learned XXDF and had a decent level of Internal Energy, that is when they faced off with DFBB. I take that as the best comparison point of LHC's ability. That is when he seemed to be on par with RWX.

About the quote you mentioned ...
但我當年……當年……曾立下重誓，有生之年，決不再与人當真動手
Yes, this indeed is very strange. But on the exact wording, FQY claims that he won't ever engage in a SERIOUS ( 當真 ) fight. Perhaps he still had friendly duels? Still, it's hard to believe that in a life and death situation, that FQY would just not act. Also, there is the case of Fang Sheng, who said FQY had done him a great favor.

On Feng Qingyang having no worthy opponents to increase his DG9J, although not mentioned, the timeline works out that Feng Qingyang and Lin Yuantu both roamed the realm during the same era. I'm not saying it's certain, but he was a very possible candidate for a sparring partner!

I'm not saying your assessments are wrong, they are very good counter points. I also think that there are just a lot of inconsistencies in Feng Qingyang's story, that it's easy to see it either way. Thanks for your insight and input!

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ooooooooooo.

That's an interesting point, about Lin Yuantu.

I was wondering, myself, why Feng Qingyang would suggest that it would take 'twenty years' for LHC to compete with top notch fighters, when, really, there were only one or two around, and he made it seem like there were many. When you toss in the likes of Lin Yuantu....yeah, that's a very interesting idea.

And no worries, this is an extremely interesting discussion

[bliss]

Ooooooooooo.

That's an interesting point, about Lin Yuantu.

I was wondering, myself, why Feng Qingyang would suggest that it would take 'twenty years' for LHC to compete with top notch fighters, when, really, there were only one or two around, and he made it seem like there were many. When you toss in the likes of Lin Yuantu....yeah, that's a very interesting idea.

And no worries, this is an extremely interesting discussion

Yes ... it's fun to stray away from the normal accepted opinions of this forum and delve into new and exciting ideas!

Another interesting find from Chapter 10 again ...

“But what if the enemy didn’t have any move either?” Linghu Chong asked.

“Then he must be a first-class elite fighter also. The result of the fight could go either way. Maybe you are better, or maybe he’s better,” Feng Qingyang answered. He let out a sigh and said, “In today’s world, it’s very difficult to find such an elite fighter. If by chance you meet one or two, then you have really good fortune. During my entire life, I’ve only met three of them.”

When Linghu Chong asks who were the 3, Feng Qingyang changes the subject. Why couldn't FQY just tell LHC who the 3 were!?!?!

So ... Feng Qingyang claims that in his lifetime he has encountered 3 first-class elites. My guess is that these would be Ren Woxing, Lin Yuantu, and whoever taught him DG9J (unless he learned it from some manual but this is unlikely because why wouldn't he just give the manual to LHC when he left then?). No one else seems to fit the mold of someone Feng Qingyang could've encountered. He never met Fang Zheng or Chong Xu. He only met Fang Sheng, who was still far from Fang Zheng because he didn't have Yijinjing. Unless there are some other super elite fighters in wulin who had since passed away, the only logical candidates are Ren Woxing (there clearly was some sort of past between the two), Lin Yuantu (timeframe seems to match ... plus we know LYT is at least as good or better than DFBB), and FQY's teacher (definitely was not someone from Huashan ...).

Thoughts?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Makes sense. After all, we know that Yue Buqun's master was friends with the Qingcheng head Taoist at the time, and the Qingcheng Taoist had fought (and lost) to Lin Yuan-tu.

Since Feng Qingyang is in the same generation as Yue Buqun's master, it's entirely possible that he had fought Lin Yuantu before. In fact, considering Lin Yuantu's fame, and Feng Qingyang's own fame, as well as Feng Qingyang's adventuresome and lively spirit, it's almost implausible that he WOULDN'T have sought out Lin Yuantu.

[Candide]

plus we know LYT is at least as good or better than DFBB

No we don't. LYT created his own version of QFBD based on bits and pieces he got from the two arguing Huasan folks. DFBB had a more complete version. LYT's best feat (that we know of) was to hand Yu Canghai's master his arse (hardly impressive). DFBB made 4 of the best fighters in his era his biatches. While I have no doubt that LYT was a very powerful fighter, I'd very much hesitate to put him on DFBB's level.

When Linghu Chong asks who were the 3, Feng Qingyang changes the subject. Why couldn't FQY just tell LHC who the 3 were!?!?!

I can bet RWX wasn't one of them. Firstly RWX wasn't old enough to be one that dueled with FQY at his prime (when he still roamed the world). RWX was likely to be one promising big mouthed kid that FQY met during his autumn years and had some interesting sword chats with.

Just to make some guesses... One of those 3 could be the master of Fang Zheng and Fang Sheng, or the previous Shaolin Abbott. Since both FZ and FS said that FQY did Shaolin a great favour, I think FQY was probably friends with one of the Shaolin leaders then. Considering FQY's age, he should be on the same level (of seniority) as FZ's master.

Another one must be someone whom FQY had very fond, but possible painful, memories with which set him into that "dreamy" mood when LHC asked him and made him change the subject. Could possibly be one similar to the WCY-LCY pair.

The last one, considering the time frame, must be LYT, as some have suggested already.

[ChronoReverse]

Actually LYT was also a pretty smart guy and did in fact read over the entire KHBD and was able to explain it to the Huashan people in a way to make the two parts merge.

That alone indicates he has very good martial arts understanding.

In fact, it's likely that PXJF is even superior to KHBD because LYT would've made sure it flows properly.

[CC]

We've talked about Bi Xie vs Kui Hua before.

Its definitely possible that Bi Xie is superior to Kui Hua because Kui Hua was only pieced together due to the martial arts understanding of LYT. If LYT was good enough to piece together and make sense out of the 2 fragments, its not unreasonable to assume that his own understanding of the martial art couldn't be worse then the manual which he was responsible for creating.

But the interesting point is that FQY mentioned 'masters with _no moves_'.

According to Yu Canghai, his master saw the moves and copied them, which was why half the sect could recognise the 72 strokes. So did LYT restrict himself to using the 'rigid' 72 strokes for purposes of hiding his true ability? Or was LYT never 'formless'?

And why was Yu Canghai's master numbskull enough not to see that it was superior speed that defeated him? The whole damn sect was still trying to dissect the real secret behind the 72 strokes years later. Its pretty obvious if you are getting trashed in a fight if the opponent is smacking you with faster speed. I am guessing that LYT tried to hide his real ability by firstly using the 72 'rigid' strokes as a cover, and possibly not showing his real speed in a fight (i.e. move _just_ fast enough to win, not crazy fast like DFBB unecessarily).

[Han Solo]

1) Bliss,

That was one of the small paragraph that i was thinking. There was another one, i think.



2) Regarding the comment that FQY must have had learnt the DG9J after the Huashan years just because YBQ did not managaed to see his DG9J does not make sense to me, why must it be so?

Even LHC never seen all of YBQ's martial arts, and he is the the lead disciple of YBQ.


3) How good is Lin YuanTu? The SOD era's Yu Chang Hai is said to have surpassed his master Evergreen already.



Han Solo

[bliss]

Very interesting ... is there ANYONE we know of besides Feng Qingyang who was formless? Ren Woxing knew many many different forms and perhaps could appear formless by simply switching at will and seamlessly like he did when he fought LHC.

But for Lin Yuantu's case ... I really think 72 Strokes of Evil Eradicating Sword Art might be just a cover. Remember, he secretly studied KHBD, then left the monkhood. From then on, he created a whole new identity, and made up a new name for the skill he interpreted. Plus, I really doubt he needed much effort to defeat Yu Canghe's master, he could've easily hidden his true power. It was said in XAJH that Yu Canghe had already exceeded his master, and Yu Canghe is pretty scrubby ... so Lin Yuantu's level should be MUCH higher than Yu Canghe's master. The only question as to whether Lin Yuantu could be comparable to Dongfang Bubai is just how long did he get to study Pixie before his former master Duye from Shaolin came and reprimanded him, making him swear to give up the art completely?

[bliss]

Regarding the comment that FQY must have had learnt the DG9J after the Huashan years just because YBQ did not managaed to see his DG9J does not make sense to me, why must it be so?

Even LHC never seen all of YBQ's martial arts, and he is the the lead disciple of YBQ.

Han Solo

No, my main argument why Feng Qingyang might've learned Dugu after his Huashan years is that, with the exception of Fang Sheng, ALL the upper tier masters didn't identify Linghu Chong's skill by name. Furthermore, Ren Woxing was completely caught by surprise when he saw Linghu Chong use DG9J. Refer back to 1st post. The Yue Buqun comment was just supplementary evidence. The context seems to hint that this is the case.

[bliss]

Bump. Lots of questions regarding the levels and rankings of XAJH lately, this thread has a lot of good information for the newer members to peruse.

Another point just occurred to me regarding the original theory that FQY learned DG9J only AFTER leaving Huashan ... Feng Buping and Cong Buqi, who should be one generation down from Feng Qingyang in the Sword faction, were completely oblivious to DG9J when LHC used it against them.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Bump. Lots of questions regarding the levels and rankings of XAJH lately, this thread has a lot of good information for the newer members to peruse.

Another point just occurred to me regarding the original theory that FQY learned DG9J only AFTER leaving Huashan ... Feng Buping and Cong Buqi, who should be one generation down from Feng Qingyang in the Sword faction, were completely oblivious to DG9J when LHC used it against them.

Issue: Fang Sheng recognized DG9J, and Xiang Wentian, after seeing Linghu Chong fight use DG9J, immediately knew that he was taught by Feng Qingyang.

How do we reconcile this with RWX feeling that there was no way LHC's sword art could have been taught by Feng Qingyang?

[PJ]

Issue: Fang Sheng recognized DG9J, and Xiang Wentian, after seeing Linghu Chong fight use DG9J, immediately knew that he was taught by Feng Qingyang.

How do we reconcile this with RWX feeling that there was no way LHC's sword art could have been taught by Feng Qingyang?

Maybe Fang and Xiang know more about Feng Qingyang than Ren?

[the.raven]

maybe after getting locked up in the dark for 12 years, ren woxing's memory of feng qing yang is fuzzy. its possible.

[CC]

Considering that DG9J is supposed to be 'formless' and there was no internal theory behind the moves (e.g. Dog Beating Stick or XL18Z). How could Xiang Wentian 'recognise' it? If he could recognise the moves, what is to stop him from using DG9J anyway?

[the.raven]

Considering that DG9J is supposed to be 'formless' and there was no internal theory behind the moves (e.g. Dog Beating Stick or XL18Z). How could Xiang Wentian 'recognise' it? If he could recognise the moves, what is to stop him from using DG9J anyway?

because hes not creative enough to figure out surprising positions?

[bliss]

Considering that DG9J is supposed to be 'formless' and there was no internal theory behind the moves (e.g. Dog Beating Stick or XL18Z). How could Xiang Wentian 'recognise' it? If he could recognise the moves, what is to stop him from using DG9J anyway?

I'm not sure that XWT ever recognized it. He did deduce that LHC was FQY's disciple, since he knew LHC was from Huashan and probably figured there was no way LHC's sword art could've been taught by YBQ. Unless there's a passage that I missed which suggests otherwise.