Zhang WuJi vs Golden Wheel Monk: a battle of chokemeisters

[jhudsui]

There's plenty of evidence that has led the most members of this forum, I think, to believe that GJ and YG are at least a slight notch above the elder Greats.

I don't think whacking an unarmed guy with a 120lb sword proves a lot about your relative martial arts abilities but other than that, ok, fair enough. It does look like something reasonable to infer even though it's never explicitly spelled out.

[PJ]

1. Yaoshi doesn't seem to have too much difficulty countering Sad Palms with his Finger Flick.

They were having a friendly match, and the length was very short. In DGSD, Su Xinghe simultaneously blocked 2 palms by Jiumozhi and Ding Chunqiu, the combined force of which is about 5 times greater than Su Xinghe's power. But since it did not prolong, it could be done. This means when the fight is too short, it doesn't always indicate the fighters' real level.

2. Of those considered the Greats at the time, I think Guo Jing and Yang Guo are the only ones whose signature styles are very "hard" with a focus on raw power. Finger Flick and One Yang Finger both seem very "finesse" styles and Zhou Botong's signature is a "soft" palm style.

Yiyang Finger is definitely yang, as the name indicates. It became refined in Yideng's hands, but you can also say that XL18Z became more refined than raw in Guo Jing's hands.

[Wu Wudi]

Broken Wheel Monk took A DAY to beat QQR! Not only was QQR not quite great level, he was also approaching 100 years old. I've no idea how anyone can find that "feat" impressive.

[jhudsui]

Broken Wheel Monk took A DAY to beat QQR! Not only was QQR not quite great level, he was also approaching 100 years old. I've no idea how anyone can find that "feat" impressive.

As much as I hate to give JLFW credit for anything, QQR actually is Great level, he just never gets the props he deserves, either because he's short or because he's an unlikeable *******. Earlier in ROCH the author opines that in a QQR vs Yideng match he'd probably put the odds on QQR.

[Ken Cheng]

The Golden Wheel Monk vs. Kau Cheen Yan is, in of itself, a battle of chokers extraordinaires. Lest we forget: Kau Cheen Yan choked away a number of battles he should have won in LOCH and ROCH. During LOCH, he always had much more difficulty fighting the young Gwok Jing than he should have. Ying Goo was much weaker than Kau Cheen Yan was, but Kau was *terrified* of Ying Goo and was unable to kill her. In ROCH, he was unable to defeat a Yeung Gor who wasn't yet powerful enough to really take him on straight up yet.

So the battle between the Golden Wheel Monk and Kau Cheen Yan was almost a contest of whose choker aura was greater.

[jhudsui]

No, not because 'tactically, he is an idiot'. Because Huang Rong and the condors continuously interfered with him, followed by Zhou Botong as well. Reread the translation. As with the previous fight against ZBT, he was winning the actual battle. Outside factors (read: multiple elite martial artists against him, some of whom have no scruples against interfering) that no one can control prevented him from actually causing harm to Yideng.

Ok, just to make this clear, we are both in agreement that JLFW has (even prior to the 16-year training period) Greats-level internal energy and techniques. Yet, somehow, he keeps losing all the time! (Except to QQR.) Is this "outside factors that no one can control", or is it that JLFW is dumb? In the incident in question, where he is ganged up on by three Greats, the questions here are:

1. Was this an avoidable situation?
2. Is the fact that JLFW got into it an anyway an example of poor decision making on his part?
3. IMPORTANT: If #1 and #2 are both correct - is this not just an isolated incident but consistent with an ongoing pattern of incompetence on his part?

Let's review this scene. Guo Xiang has just jumped down the cliff, JLFW is standing there holding part of her robe, Huang Rong and Zhou Botong show up, things get ugly. He ends up being double-teamed by ZB and Yideng and realizes that is an unwinnable fight, runs away. Now, all of his decisions up to this point have been sound, particularly the running away as soon as ZB joined in his duel with Yideng instead of continuing the fight and waiting to start losing. But then Huang Yaoshi shows up and INSTEAD OF CONTINUING TO RUN AWAY HE STOPS TO CHAT WITH HYS, GIVING YIDENG AND ZB TIME TO CATCH UP.

He thought, “That small rock was shot from afar and shook my wheel. This person’s internal strength is not inferior to the Old Urchin and the old monk, how is it possible that another such expert exists?”
While he was stunned for a minute, an old man in a long green robe walked out of the forest. He looked very suave and distinguished. Zhou Botong was happy to see him and shouted, “Old Heretic Huang! This damn monk is responsible for the death of your granddaughter. Let us capture him together.”
Jinlun Fawang struck his wheels together creating a loud ‘dang’ sound, similar to the cry of a dragon. He said, “I take it you are the Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi?”
Huang Yaoshi nodded and said, “Yes, I am, Reverend. What can I do for you?”
Fawang said, “Even back in Tibet we have heard that only the Eastern Heretic, Western Poison, Southern Emperor, Northern Beggar and Central Divinity were all-powerful in the Central Plains. It pleases me to see that you live up to your reputation. I would like to ask where the other four great masters are.”
Huang Yaoshi replied, “The Central Divinity, Northern Beggar and Western Poison have passed away many years ago. This Reverend Yideng here is the Southern Emperor and Brother Zhou is the younger martial arts brother of the Central Divinity.”
Zhou Botong came fast. He said, “If my martial arts brother was still alive, would you be able to withstand even ten of his stances?”
Reverend Yideng also came fast. Together with the Eastern Heretic, they formed a triangle surrounding Fawang. Fawang looked at Yideng; then at Botong; and finally at the Eastern Heretic. He sighed and threw his five wheels to the ground.

There is absolutely NO REASON he should be stopping to talk to Huang Yaoshi. He might not know who Huang Yaoshi is, he might be really really curious who Huang Yaoshi is, but THAT was not the time to find out. He already knew HYS was 1. not on his side, 2. powerful enough to affect the outcome, 3. not even necessary to defeat him if ZB and Y can catch up to him.

[jhudsui]

In ROCH, he was unable to defeat a Yeung Gor who wasn't yet powerful enough to really take him on straight up yet.

YG had a 120 lb sword. QQR is "Iron Palms Water Skimmer", not "Metal Even Denser Than Iron So That A Normal Sized Jian Made Of It Weighs 120 Pounds Palms Water Skimmer".

[PJ]

Broken Wheel Monk took A DAY to beat QQR! Not only was QQR not quite great level, he was also approaching 100 years old. I've no idea how anyone can find that "feat" impressive.

It's impressive because it's better than any of the other old Greats could do.

OK, Zhou Botong might be able to do it, but Yideng and Huang Yaoshi have no chance.

[jhudsui]

OK, Zhou Botong might be able to do it, but Yideng and Huang Yaoshi have no chance.

What are you basing that on?

In ROCH when YG fights QQR, it is said that between Y and QQR the odds are on QQR. Not that Y would have no chance against QQR.

Also this thread is getting increasingly distracted from what should be the topic at hand, which is how much JLFW sucks. (He sucks a lot.) More on this in a bit.

[PJ]

What are you basing that on?

In ROCH when YG fights QQR, it is said that between Y and QQR the odds are on QQR. Not that Y would have no chance against QQR.

The novel said that Yideng MIGHT have a chance at defeating Qiu Qianren BY HALF A STANCE if he utilized the highest level of Yiyang Finger. But he cannot critically injure Qiu Qianren like Golden Wheel Monk did.

Huang Yaoshi is an equal of Yideng, so the result should be the same.

Zhou Botong is slightly above Yideng so he has a better chance.

[jhudsui]

So, various mistakes JLFW makes over the course of ROCH:

1. The very first time he shows up in the book, at the Wulin Chancellor tournament, Yang Guo poisons his disciple. Yang Guo offers to trade antidotes with him to get the antidote to Hou Du's poison to cure Zhu Ziliu. But JLFW just assumes that he is such a medical badass that he will be able to cure Hou Du's poison without YG's help, so he ignores the offer and leaves without the antidote. But then, in the next chapter we find out his knowledge was totally insufficient to cure the poison and he was having to consider a break-in to retrieve the antidote.

2. Yang Guo attempts to join forces with him to take revenge for his father's death. As soon as the very first opportunity to betray YG comes up, when all of the Mongolian Crew hit Passionless Valley, JLFW jumps all over it, even though it's a shitty opportunity that doesn't amount to anything. He goes out of his way to alienate YG when discussing the impending wedding, and then when YG duels Gongsun Zhi he manages to reveal a couple of stances of YG's moves in advance, which has pretty much no outcome on the duel whatsoever.

3. Later, when everyone is leaving Passionless Valley, JLFW is such an incredible dick that he manages to instigate a five-way gang up on himself completely out of thin air. It's a spectacular feat of anti-politics unmatched by anything else in ROCH.

4. Complete and total failure to cooperate with the Mongolian Crew during YG and Guo Jing's escape from their camp when rescuing the Wu brothers. This was Mongolia's golden opportunity to do away with Guo Jing and he and Xiaoxiang Zi throw it away in their attempt to hog glory for themselves.

5. Ok I am going to quote it again:

Jinlun Fawang stood on the rooftop with a wheel in each hand. He laughed, “Brother Yang, how does it feel to be a man who goes back on his word?”
He laughed, “Fawang, you’re right. I don’t know what came over me that day; I don’t know why I helped Guo Jing escape. But once he got back to Xiangyang, I don’t know where he’s gone and I can’t find him, It’s only now that I’ve regretted what I’ve done. Do you know where he is?” He then leapt up to the roof and stood a few feet in front of him.
Fawang squinted, he knew that this little kid was very crafty and didn’t know whether he was telling the truth or telling a lie. He laughed, “If you find him, what will you do?”
Yang Guo said, “There’s a sword in my hand.”
Fawang scoffed, “Huh, you’d actually dare stab him?”
Yang Guo said, “Who said I’d stab him?”
Surprised, Fawang replied, “Who then?”
The Gentleman Sword pierced the air as it came towards Fawang’s left side very quickly. At the same time, Yang Guo laughed, “You of course!” This attack came out of nowhere and with great force. With the close distance and being caught unaware, had Fawang’s martial arts been just a little lower, like that of Nimoxing and Xiaoxiang Zi, he would surely have died from that attack. Fawang managed to react in time and gathered chi in his left arm and blocked the attack. However, the Gentleman Sword is an extremely sharp blade, his arm was cut by the sword and he suffered a wound inches deep and blood flowed.
Fawang might have known that Yang Guo was sly, but he would never have guessed that he would actually attack him.

There is probably more, I am stopping at Chapter 22 for now.

[PJ]

They both choke against unconventional kung fu.

Zhang Wuji has several unconventional kung fu's (Sacred Fire Tablet & Qiankun Danuoyi), while Goldie has none. So Goldie would more likely choke on Zhang Wuji's kung fu.

[ChanceEncounter]

Well let's see. Golden Wheel Monk has the Dragon Elephant Prana. Zhang Wuji has 9 Yang, the Universe Reversal, AND Taiji. That's 1 Great-level kung fu (at level 10) against 3 Great-level kung fu's. In terms of martial arts, Zhang Wuji has major major advantages.

In a fair fight, I think Zhang Wuji would win. In a real combat situation, Golden Wheel Monk might cheat to win, but that doesn't count.

When has ZWJ shown to use both QKDNY and Taiji at the same moment? The overall number of techniques you have is relatively pointless discussion. GJ and YG both have more great level techniques than GWM, and they've struggled against him.

Don't forget that GWM's wheels were able to instantly slice through YG's sword when he tried to use Jade Maiden. ZBT also claimed that he never faced anyone with such incredibly powerful internal as GWM. Considering he knows GJ and YG, both of whom knew parts or the whole of 9Yin (and in YG's case, had snake gallbladders), it's fair to say GWM's internal should be at least on par with ZWJ's.

As for techniques, what specifically does ZWJ has to fend off GWM's wheels? He could attempt to redirect them with QKDNY, but he'd have a hard time fending off that manage edges at once.

It'd be a close fight of internal energy, and I doubt ZWJ wins because of 'more' techniques.

[PJ]

The first time Goldie encounters Sacred Fire Tablet, one of the funkiest kung fu's around, I'm sure he will be zapped before he can do much.

[Ken Cheng]

When has ZWJ shown to use both QKDNY and Taiji at the same moment?

Isn't that what he did when he faced off against Ah 3, Ah 2, and Ah Dai at Mt. Mo Dong?

[kyss of the sword]

ZWJ is severly inexpirenced with fighting against opponents with equal inner force with him. if JLFW goes all out at him, he would be beaten.

[superboy]

Well, by the end of ROCH GWM is able to fatally wound a near Great level fighter which was stated even Yi Deng may only have the chance to out do him by 'half-a-stance', then it should be safe to assume that he is at least at the level of a Great or a bit above. Where he lacks in techniques or guts they're compensated by his power and experience. I consider someone that's slightly better than a Great to at least be at ZWJ's level. =0

[wuyuejin]

ZWJ has the Tulong Saber and the Yitian Sword so Jinlun Guoshi's wheel is cut into pieces easily. Being the kindest fighter in JY's novels, however, ZWJ does not take advantage of this opportunity. He throws his weapons away to enter a barehanded battle with JLGS. The Sacred Flame Tablet Divine technique permits ZWJ to b.tch slap the hell out of Jinlun multiple times before the monk can figure out a way to counter it. And facing Wuji's Taiji boxing technique and QKDNY technique, the attacks Jinlun sends out all are neutralized or driven back to the skinheaded dude himself. Being unable to effectively lay a single finger on ZWJ's body while having to suffer many counterattacks, Jinlun explodes in rage and exposes weaknesses. ZWJ immediately closes the distance and give him the critical blows with the Boxing of 7 Injuries technique. Jinlun's internal organs are crushed. He spews a current of blood out from his mouth and dies.

[yittz]

ZWJ is severly inexpirenced with fighting against opponents with equal inner force with him. if JLFW goes all out at him, he would be beaten.

That's because Z3F is the only equal in terms of internal force. JLFW's experience comes from him losing just about every battle in ROCH.

[Guo Fu ):]

why do people say GWM is lacking in technique? he can juggle 5 wheels at once, thats technique ^^