Ming Cult martial artists after Cheung Mo Gei and Yeung Siu

[Ken Cheng]

In the Ming Cult of Cheung Mo Gei's time, Cult Leader Cheung Mo Gei was far and away the cult's best martial artist. A distant second after him would be Left Herald of Light Yeung Siu, the only other Ming Cult member of the time who had even limited training in the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. Beyond those two, however, how did the rest of the following rank as individual martial artists in the Ming Cult (and who were their closest equivalents from the six orthodox sects)?

Right Herald of Light Fan Yiu
Purple Robed Dragon King Dor Yee See (Granny Golden Flower)
White Browed Eagle King Yan Teen Sing
Golden Haired Lion King Tse Tsun
Green Winged Bat King Wai 1 Siu

Everybody else in the Ming Cult, I presume, was much farther down on the martial arts scale than the above named cult elders.

[Naruto-kun]

I think the order will be : Fan Yao, In Thian Sing, Golden Flower Granny, Wie it-siaw then Xie-xun.

Because Fan Yao and In Thian Seng always keep them-selves at their top condition (training etc) but In Thian Seng was already rather old. Golden Flower Granny was on par with that stone-headed Emei leader (but with a weaker weapon) so she's becoming a formidable fighter later on than she was when Xie-xun told her origin. Possibly Wie It-siaw and Xiexun was on par since Xie-xun got blinded, but he didn't get any better since he's been living in Fire/Ice island. While It-siaw starting to regain health after his poison was cured by Wuji (I pressume he's getting stronger then). But that's just my guess.

[K2Grey]

It might depend on what time period this is. Xie Xun was good enough to beat Cheng Kun at the end of the novel, which would make him considerably better than Yang Xiao and Fan Yao at the time of the attack on Wudang, but then again they might have improved much between then and the end of the novel.

There is also that one Flag Leader (not sure which element) who broke Mie Jue's sword. But then she cheated and used Yi Tian Jian to compensate for her inferior swordsmanship.

[shadow8899]

It might depend on what time period this is. Xie Xun was good enough to beat Cheng Kun at the end of the novel, which would make him considerably better than Yang Xiao and Fan Yao at the time of the attack on Wudang, but then again they might have improved much between then and the end of the novel.

There is also that one Flag Leader (not sure which element) who broke Mie Jue's sword. But then she cheated and used Yi Tian Jian to compensate for her inferior swordsmanship.

XX was only able to beat Cheng Kun because they were fighting in the dark, which gave XX an upper hand, since he couldn't see anyway.

[Extremer88]

Xie Xun's internal energy cultivation improved when he was living in Fire Ice Island. It was said that living there would improve the practitioner's internal energy cultivation due to harsh temperature conditions on the island. Xie Xun lived there for almost 15-20yrs, so his internal energy should improve. So compare to others, XX's internal energy should be better.

[Tazzy1972]

also the wu san ren's martial arts are not too shabby

[yittz]

Didn't it say that both XX and Golden granny (purple dragon) improved significantly since they last met. Even though XX was blind, he can match it with Golden granny due to his superior weaponry. I thought Purple was the weakest before they left, and it's hard to imagine she improving more than XX.

So ranking XX, are we including his dragon blade or not?

[The_One]

Was Tse Tsun's martial arts better than Yeung Siu before he went to the Ice Fire Island? Since Tse Tsun was named as the successor to Yeung Ding Tian.

I'm sure he would rank higher than the other dragon kings at least.

[yittz]

He was talented and had most potential. Don't think his MA was above YX before.

[Candide]

They were all unique.

The two heralds:

- Yang Xiao's styles were sharp and efficient. Min number of moves for max hits.
- Fan Yao's techniques were flowery. He knew martial arts of many schools and would switch between them constantly.

They were considered equal, although it was briefly mentioned that Fan Yao was full of admiration for Yang Xiao's techniques during the fight with the 3 Shaolin Elders. Yang Xiao also knew level 2 of QKDNY so that was another advantage he had over other top Ming Cult fighters.

The two Heralds were placed above the four Lords because they were more cunning and good strategists, not because they were better fighters.

The four Lords:

- Yin Tianzheng (White Brow Eagle Lord): his inner energy was said to be the highest. He used simple techniques mostly (except for his main one) and relied on strong inner power to win. His main technique though was his Eagle Claws which seems to be very complex. It was said that nobody had ever been able to block his Eagle Claws.

When Yang Xiao was racing with him to Wudang, it was said that they all arrived at the same time as Yang Xiao's lightness kungfu was better but Yin Tianzheng's inner power was immense. It might mean that Yin's inner power was greater than Yang Xiao's.

- Xie Xun (Golden Mane Lion Lord): his styles were pretty similar to Yin Tianzheng's. High inner power plus simple but powerful and deadly techniques. At the Dragon Sabre exhibition on (warning: bad pinyin) Wangpan Island, when talking about Yin Tianzheng to Zhang Cuisan and Yin Susu, he seemed to imply that he and Yin were equals.

He then had 20 years on Ice-Fire Island which was said to have improved his inner energy training, but he was blind, so it's a little hard to say if he got better than other Lords. We could perhaps judge him from his fight against Cheng Kun, who, according to ZWJ, was at the level of the 3 Shaolin Elders, and one Shaolin Elder could comfortably fight both Yin Tianzheng and Yang Xiao. Xie Xun was losing against Cheng Kun, but IMO he lasted longer against Cheng Kun than Yin Tianzheng or Yang Xiao would last in a one on one fight against a Shaolin Elder. However, Xie Xun had the following advantages:

- He knew most of Cheng Kun's techniques.
- He was driven by revenge. It was the last chance in his life he had to kill Cheng Kun. That should boost his fighting ability a little bit.
- Cheng Kun lost his best technique - (bad pinyin again) Xuanyin Finger (a very yin and poisonous finger technique) which he used to immobilize Yang Xiao, Wei Yixiao and the 5 Idle Men. He lost it after he used it on Zhang Wuji and it was destroyed by the 9 Yang shield. Btw that showed just how powerful ZWJ's 9 Yang is. He just stood there and let his auto-protect shield destroy the best technique of one of the best fighters of his time.

- Wei Yixiao (Green Wings Bat Lord): his inner energy was not as high as others but not much behind. His Soft Icy Palm was as deadly as any top technique from other Lords and Heralds. He clearly had superior lightness kungfu. He however wouldn't last long in a fight against a top opponent like a Shaolin Elder (which is why ZWJ didn't pick him). He was the mail delivery man in that fight and was almost shocked out of his shell by the leader of the Shaolin Elders' high inner power. He also carried an internal injury that seriously hampered his inner energy training. It was half cured by Zhang Wuji after the Brightness Peak battle but it was still there.

I'd put Wei at half a level behind the previous 4.

- Dai Yishi (I forgot her name in pinyin) the Purple (? I know what this next word refers to but not sure how to translate it) Dragon Lord. She was similar to Wei Yi Xiao, IMO. Lower inner power, but could make up for it with weird and unpredictable (Persian) techniques. It seems to be implied in Xie Xun's story about her that she was not as powerful as other Lords, but was promoted to that rank because she saved face for the Ming Cult leader Yang Dingtian and because she was so beautiful. Again she should be half a level below other Lords and Heralds.

The 5 Idle Men were good fighters. The one who didn't talk much was the best fighter. The rest were roughly equal. Not sure how good they were compared to fighters from orthodox schools but Yang Xiao could handle all five.

The 5 Flag Captains were all capable fighters, but only the Metal Flag Captain stood out. He was very strong and his inner energy was profound. He broke Miejue's sword and would've defeated and killed her right there if she hadn't had the Heavenly Sword as backup. IMO he was at least as good as Wei Yixiao.

Yin Yiwang, Yin Tianzheng's son and Zhang Wuji's uncle, was said to be not much behind Yin Tianzheng in kungfu. He was knocked out by a weakened Cheng Kun (who was also out, but he only pretended so) but wasn't seriously injured. Never had any fight that we had the chance to read about but he seemed to be pretty comfortable and sure of himself when challenging Miejue and didn't mind chasing and challenging Wei Yixiao on his own. Again, probably half a level below the two Heralds and top two Lords.

[yittz]

Shuo Bu De of 5 idle man also specialised in Lightness kungfu and had unpredictable Wal-mart bagging technique.

Yin Ye Wang did arive at the scene of Wu Dang at the same time as Ding Tian (one of the idle man). So his lightness kungfu wasn't that impressive.

[K2Grey]

Hmm, was the name of Cheng Kun's finger technique changed in one of the editions? I remember that in the zhaomin.org translation of HSDS 1st edition Cheng Kun was using Yiyin Zhi, but it seems like JY decided not to go overboard with the ROCH yin/yang parallels.

That is some auto-protect though. Too bad it wasn't enough to kill Cheng Kun.