If Gwok Jing's fathers-in-law were to meet and talk: Genghis Khan and Wong Yerk See

[Ken Cheng]

We all know how Princess Hua Jeng and Wong Yung felt about Gwok Jing. We also know how the two girls' fathers, Genghis Khan and East Heretic Wong Yerk See, thought of Gwok Jing as well. Genghis Khan and Wong Yerk See were both great men in very different ways, and their attitudes towards Gwok Jing couldn't be more different. To Genghis Khan, Gwok Jing was the son-in-law that he always wanted. Genghis deeply admired Gwok Jing's courage, determination, heroic spirit, and loyalty, and held Gwok Jing in the highest esteem. Wong Yerk See, on the other hand, found those same traits in Gwok Jing irritating - hallmarks of the kind of dull mind and rigid morality that Wong Yerk See held in contempt. For Wong Yung's sake, Wong Yerk See gradually came around to appreciating Gwok Jing's positive qualities, but he never truly liked his son-in-law.

Genghis Khan and Wong Yerk See never met during LOCH. Were the two of them to meet and discuss the subject of Gwok Jing, what would each of them say? What would happen when they disagree?

[SkineePanda]

Based on HYS's personality, he probably has no patience to talk to Genghis on the matters of GJ, he probably storm out beczuse he feels too cultured for anyone in his camp. Look at how many times HYS just appeared and then left abruptly. That's his personality, coming and going like the wind.

Putting GJ aside, Huang Yaoshi has a patriotic heart. The moment he realizes Genghis's ambition to conquer the central plains, he's kill him. He probably kill him just for the hell of it, why?........becoz he's Huang Yaoshi.

[Ken Cheng]

Putting GJ aside, Huang Yaoshi has a patriotic heart. The moment he realizes Genghis's ambition to conquer the central plains, he's kill him. He probably kill him just for the hell of it, why?........becoz he's Huang Yaoshi.

It's too bad that Genghis and Wong Yerk See never met, because I've often wondered how the two would regard each other. Wong Yerk See did admire and respect self-made men who had a vision of what they wanted and had full confidence in their plans for achieving their goals. Genghis Khan was the ultimate example of that. Although Wong Yerk See would not have supported the Khan's ambition to conquer China, I have a feeling he would have nevertheless admired the Khan himself.

[Ken Cheng]

Reviving this thread because I never really did get an answer on how Genghis Khan and Wong Yerk See might have regarded each other had they met.

Genghis Khan admired men of culture and learning, as evidenced by the esteem he had for Yau Chui Gei. Wong Yerk See, if anything, was perhaps even more cultured and learned than Yau Chui Gei. He would likely have greatly impressed the Khan.

Wong Yerk See had no respect for the average man, but Genghis Khan was by no measure average. Genghis was a leader with ambition and vision, and the charisma to lead an entire nation. Would he have impressed Wong Yerk See?

[jhudsui]

Genghis deeply admired Gwok Jing's courage, determination, heroic spirit, and loyalty, and held Gwok Jing in the highest esteem. Wong Yerk See, on the other hand, found those same traits in Gwok Jing irritating - hallmarks of the kind of dull mind and rigid morality that Wong Yerk See held in contempt. For Wong Yung's sake, Wong Yerk See gradually came around to appreciating Gwok Jing's positive qualities, but he never truly liked his son-in-law.

I don't think Huang Yaoshi actually actively disliked Guo Jing's rigidly honorable nature, I thought he was just indifferent to it, and it was his actual slow-wittedness that he disliked. I am pretty sure Huang Yaoshi approved of Guo Jing's courage, at least, and that he always got points for that. (Just not enough points to qualify as a proper fiance for his daughter.)

[pannonian]

I don't think Huang Yaoshi actually actively disliked Guo Jing's rigidly honorable nature, I thought he was just indifferent to it, and it was his actual slow-wittedness that he disliked. I am pretty sure Huang Yaoshi approved of Guo Jing's courage, at least, and that he always got points for that. (Just not enough points to qualify as a proper fiance for his daughter.)

HYS disliked observing the rules of honour for the sake of rules. He was interested in ideas, and if they coincided with conventional honour, he wouldn't be contrary for the sake of being contrary. As with everything else he did, he created his own code of principles from his own thinkings. What he disliked was the Freaks' (and Guo Jing's) adherence to a code of honour because it was the accepted code of honour.

IMHO HYS would admire Genghis' ambitions and respect his principles, but only so far as it didn't collide with his own world. If there was a danger of the latter, then HYS would put his world first, and eliminate the threat.

[Han Solo]

Reviving this thread because I never really did get an answer on how Genghis Khan and Wong Yerk See might have regarded each other had they met.

Genghis Khan admired men of culture and learning, as evidenced by the esteem he had for Yau Chui Gei. Wong Yerk See, if anything, was perhaps even more cultured and learned than Yau Chui Gei. He would likely have greatly impressed the Khan.

Wong Yerk See had no respect for the average man, but Genghis Khan was by no measure average. Genghis was a leader with ambition and vision, and the charisma to lead an entire nation. Would he have impressed Wong Yerk See?

The attraction of YCG and the QZ sect for Genghis Khan lies solely in the immortality teachings propagated through Taoism. I don't think that HYS would interest him that much.

[Ken Cheng]

The attraction of YCG and the QZ sect for Genghis Khan lies solely in the immortality teachings propagated through Taoism. I don't think that HYS would interest him that much.

Perhaps not. Let us not forget that Wong Yerk See was, as his name suggests, a master of herbal medicine. Literal immortality might have been out of reach, but Genghis might have been curious if Wong had some concoction that could at least prolong life. In fact, Wong Yerk See likely knew more about such concoctions than any member of the Cheun Jen Sect (including Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung) did.

[Dennis Chen]

I doubt they'd get along. One is a hermit, the other is a conqueror.

[mawguy]

perhaps they would not see eye-to-eye on the subject of kwok ching, but i think they would have & show mutual admiration and respect. who knows, maybe wong yeuk see would have joined genghis khan in his empire-building project. ha, imagine how much conflict he'd have with kwok ching then!

[endo]

maybe with his heretic nature...HYS might have join forces with Ghenghis? Since HYS held so much contempt for the current emperor and the corrupt government...he might have join sides with Ghenghis and overthrow the useless government and in that way, help out the common people (and of course....if HYS was on Ghenghis' side, he would also help prevent the slaughter of innocent civilians maybe?)


That's what i don't get about GJ...why he would put his life defending a corrupt and useless emperor and government. If he switched sides and fought with the Mongols, Ghenghis will have no doubt made him the ruler of inner China and GJ can then help the general populace that way instead of blind loyalty protecting a useless emperor/government that is so weak and corrupt that it will eventually fall anyways.

[Ken Cheng]

That's what i don't get about GJ...why he would put his life defending a corrupt and useless emperor and government. If he switched sides and fought with the Mongols, Ghenghis will have no doubt made him the ruler of inner China and GJ can then help the general populace that way instead of blind loyalty protecting a useless emperor/government that is so weak and corrupt that it will eventually fall anyways.

The problem with that is that the Han Chinese would be at the mercy of Genghis and his heirs. Today, Genghis might be feeling generous and decide to allow Gwok Jing to determine how to manage his Chinese conquests; tomorrow, Genghis or one of his sons or grandsons might change his mind and order Gwok Jing to enslave or slaughter the Chinese population en masse. Too much was at stake to take that risk. Even in LOCH, we saw Genghis harboring plans to slaughter the Chinese population regardless of his ties with Gwok Jing. Genghis Khan was that Machiavellian (remember how he also betrayed his anda brothers Wang Khan and Jamuqua when supremacy over Mongolia was on the line).

[Ken Cheng]

I doubt they'd get along. One is a hermit, the other is a conqueror.

Genghis Khan and Yau Chui Gei were also an unlikely pair of friends, but look how that turned out.

[Ian Liew]

That's what i don't get about GJ...why he would put his life defending a corrupt and useless emperor and government. If he switched sides and fought with the Mongols, Ghenghis will have no doubt made him the ruler of inner China and GJ can then help the general populace that way instead of blind loyalty protecting a useless emperor/government that is so weak and corrupt that it will eventually fall anyways.

That was the original line of reasoning Genghis Khan and his people tried to use to convince Guo Jing to join them when he had discovered their plan to invade China. However, Guo Jing's mother wisely drew a very strong and relevant parallel between Guo Jing's position and Yang Kang's position - both children of loyal Chinese heroes, raised by a foreign power, secure in a royal position within the families, in a position to betray the country of their origin and help their adopted country and to win great glory, and consequently bring shame upon the great men Guo Xiaotian and Yang Tiexin. No matter how attractive the situation might be and how noble the cause (remember, Yang Kang had his morals. When the Jin were in decline against the Song-Mongol alliance Yang was still steadfastly loyal to his adopted father, family and people) it would still have counted as a betrayal of the Han Chinese, and thankfully Guo Jing had already taken that stand, and just needed his mother to support it.

[endo]

That was the original line of reasoning Genghis Khan and his people tried to use to convince Guo Jing to join them when he had discovered their plan to invade China. However, Guo Jing's mother wisely drew a very strong and relevant parallel between Guo Jing's position and Yang Kang's position - both children of loyal Chinese heroes, raised by a foreign power, secure in a royal position within the families, in a position to betray the country of their origin and help their adopted country and to win great glory, and consequently bring shame upon the great men Guo Xiaotian and Yang Tiexin. No matter how attractive the situation might be and how noble the cause (remember, Yang Kang had his morals. When the Jin were in decline against the Song-Mongol alliance Yang was still steadfastly loyal to his adopted father, family and people) it would still have counted as a betrayal of the Han Chinese, and thankfully Guo Jing had already taken that stand, and just needed his mother to support it.

There's a huge difference between YK's goals and GJ's goal. Sure...there is some parallel to both of their stories but YK's after riches and fame and glory. GJ's goal is to help ease the suffering of the Han people. With the mongol conquest, GJ would be in a much better position to help his people. Fighting for a lost cause, even as heroic as it was, I think in the end cost more innocent lives. The Song government was in such a weak state that having a new ruler might be more beneficial.

[Ken Cheng]

There's GJ's goal is to help ease the suffering of the Han people. With the mongol conquest, GJ would be in a much better position to help his people.

Not really. It all depends on how much autonomy that Genghis or his heirs would want to extend to Gwok Jing, and considering what a control freak Genghis was, we can't expect that to be much. Don't forget: the final orders that Gwok Jing received as a commander in the Mongol army from Genghis was to attack Seung Yeung and slaughter its people. That would have been just the beginning.

[pannonian]

Not really. It all depends on how much autonomy that Genghis or his heirs would want to extend to Gwok Jing, and considering what a control freak Genghis was, we can't expect that to be much. Don't forget: the final orders that Gwok Jing received as a commander in the Mongol army from Genghis was to attack Seung Yeung and slaughter its people. That would have been just the beginning.

The last plans discussed in speech was how to finish off the Jin resistance in Daliang. Guo Jing explained the idea of attacking but not attacking, not attacking but attacking from the Wumu legacy to Ogedei and Tolui, then a delighted Genghis revealed his own plans, which were exactly those voiced by Guo Jing (which impressed GJ, since his was book learning, while Genghis' was natural talent). After explaining the details to the 3 army commanders, they were each given a sealed sachet, to be opened together once they'd defeated the Jin and were in occupation of Daliang. Later, Guo Jing and his mother picked opened his sachet to read the orders inside.

Turned out it was Genghis Khan?s secret order to Ogedei, Tuolei and Guo
Jing; as soon as the Jin is defeated, they were to proceed south to
Lin'an in the shortest time possible, to defeat the Song and unify it
under the Great Mongolia. The secret order also said that if Guo Jing
rendered a great merit, he was to be crowned the prince with all glory
and honor belonging to that title; but if he harbored a different mind,
Ogedei and Tuolei were to behead him immediately, and his mother must
also be executed.

Get the 2003 series with Li Yapeng and Zhou Xun. If you haven't read the book, it's the next best thing, as it's an incredibly faithful adaptation. The bad thing is that it might spoil your enjoyment of other text to screen adaptations, since nothing else I've seen in any genre is quite that close to the original text.

[endo]

The last plans discussed in speech was how to finish off the Jin resistance in Daliang. Guo Jing explained the idea of attacking but not attacking, not attacking but attacking from the Wumu legacy to Ogedei and Tolui, then a delighted Genghis revealed his own plans, which were exactly those voiced by Guo Jing (which impressed GJ, since his was book learning, while Genghis' was natural talent). After explaining the details to the 3 army commanders, they were each given a sealed sachet, to be opened together once they'd defeated the Jin and were in occupation of Daliang. Later, Guo Jing and his mother picked opened his sachet to read the orders inside.

Turned out it was Genghis Khan?s secret order to Ogedei, Tuolei and Guo
Jing; as soon as the Jin is defeated, they were to proceed south to
Lin'an in the shortest time possible, to defeat the Song and unify it
under the Great Mongolia. The secret order also said that if Guo Jing
rendered a great merit, he was to be crowned the prince with all glory
and honor belonging to that title; but if he harbored a different mind,
Ogedei and Tuolei were to behead him immediately, and his mother must
also be executed.

Get the 2003 series with Li Yapeng and Zhou Xun. If you haven't read the book, it's the next best thing, as it's an incredibly faithful adaptation. The bad thing is that it might spoil your enjoyment of other text to screen adaptations, since nothing else I've seen in any genre is quite that close to the original text.

Exactly...if he was crowned prince of Song after the Mongol conquest, he would be in a much better position to help the common Han people than what he was doing by being a rebel in the eyes of both the Song and the Mongol. The Songs didn't believe in him enough to send troops and the Mongols saw him as a traitor.

[Ian Liew]

There's a huge difference between YK's goals and GJ's goal. Sure...there is some parallel to both of their stories but YK's after riches and fame and glory. GJ's goal is to help ease the suffering of the Han people. With the mongol conquest, GJ would be in a much better position to help his people. Fighting for a lost cause, even as heroic as it was, I think in the end cost more innocent lives. The Song government was in such a weak state that having a new ruler might be more beneficial.

The ends do not justify the means. If Guo Jing had the ambition to become an emperor, then he might have acted differently. His concern was not only that the people of China did not starve and suffer, but also that the Chinese may lift up their heads as independent people with dignity. Much of the Southern Song dynasty had the Han being humiliated by the Jins whenever they crossed paths, and the Han were very much bullied. Having a Mongol government was not going to change that (and eventually, under the Yuan, Han fears were realised. It took a great man like the Qing dynasty's Kangxi emperor, against all odds and expectation, to make a monumental effort to run the country fairly as a foreigner).

Yang Kang's case was much closer than you expect. Towards the end Yang Kang no longer had riches to look forward to. He resigned himself to end up a prisoner and a nationless man should the Jin ever fall - he was determined to fall with them. It was a loyalty which should be admired by the Jins for the best reasons, in the same way Guo Jing's loyalty to the Khan was admired by the Mongols. The difference was that Guo Jing embraced his Han heritage, while Yang Kang didn't, and hence he could never side with the Mongols. Make Yang Kang the same offer against the Jin and he would most likely reject it as well (although he might feign acceptance and turn later, he would never betray the Jin people).

Exactly...if he was crowned prince of Song after the Mongol conquest, he would be in a much better position to help the common Han people than what he was doing by being a rebel in the eyes of both the Song and the Mongol. The Songs didn't believe in him enough to send troops and the Mongols saw him as a traitor.

Whether the Song government regarded him as a rebel or not didn't matter. The people of China respected him as a hero. It makes me think that if Singapore or China ever invaded Malaysia, would I defend my country knowing that the government does not have my interests at heart, or do I side with the Chinese and Singaporeans because I know (well, assume) that I'll have a better life under them? The tale of Guo Jing makes me lean toward the former. If the Malaysian government does fall to an invasion, it will not be because I betrayed the trust my country put in me. I might support the removal of the current government through internal democratic process, but never through siding with an outsider who has his own agenda.

[Ken Cheng]

Most importantly, even if Genghis were to grant Gwok Jing the title "King of Sung," that hardly means that Gwok Jing will be given autonomous power to rule over the Han population as he pleases. Ultimately, Gwok Jing would still be a vassal of the Mongol Empire and if the Mongol leadership decides to order Gwok Jing to massacre or enslave the Han people (as is likely), he would be obliged to follow those orders if he were to remain in the Mongols' good graces. How would this be helping the Han people? They'd just be exchanging one group of foreign oppressors (the Jin) for another (the Mongols).