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Thread: Did Jin Yong end up with the final story that he envisioned when he started?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Did Jin Yong end up with the final story that he envisioned when he started?

    As was often the case with novel writers until the late 20th Century, Jin Yong presented his novels in serial form: all of his novels were first published in small installments in his MING PAO DAILY newspapers. As Jin Yong's full-length novels each ran rather long, the stories would often take years to fully unfold.

    That makes you wonder: did Jin Yong end up with the story that he started out writing? For example, when writing the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY novels or STATE OF DIVINITY or DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS, did he already know in Chapter 1 what would ultimately happen to each of the characters by the final chapter? Or did he kind of just make it up as he went along with some vague ideas of where he wanted the story to go, but with no real set plan?

    Each of Jin Yong's novels must have been an incredible effort of planning out plotlines and character developments, especially the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. Taken together, LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS form a storyweb that spans hundreds of named characters over a 150-year (approximately) continuity. I wonder what process Jin Yong went through to build such an epic.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    i doubt JY had HSDS in mind when he wrote LOCH, but i do think throughout each novel, he probably had a rough plotline of what was going to happen, and minor stuff just went with the flow. i mean, considering he still revises the stuff he wrote years earlier, he probably changed some of his ideas when writing.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    i doubt JY had HSDS in mind when he wrote LOCH, but i do think throughout each novel, he probably had a rough plotline of what was going to happen, and minor stuff just went with the flow. i mean, considering he still revises the stuff he wrote years earlier, he probably changed some of his ideas when writing.
    One fairly well known fact about the writing of ROCH was that Jin Yong originally intended for the story to have a tragic ending, with both Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl dying. He never published that ending because he decided that it was too much of a "downer" ending, and would probably even affect the sales of MING PAO DAILY. Hence, he wrote the happy ending for ROCH that we all know.

    Later, however (after MING PAO DAILY was on firmer footing and didn't need Jin Yong's wuxia stories to sell copies anymore), when Jin Yong wrote DGSD, I think Jin Yong transferred the tragic ending that he had originally intended for Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl to Kiu Fung and Ah Chu. DGSD does have somewhat of a downer ending, or at least an ambiguous one.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    I also read somewhere that Yang Guo and Guo Fu were supposed to end up together but JY decided to go with the flow of the story and made YG ends up with XLN instead.
    Last edited by kidd; 07-18-06 at 01:38 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Lucky he did. He wrote Guo Fu to be such an unlikeable character. And GX is unfortunately far too young for YG =/

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    or perhaps he made GF so dispicable b/c he decided to make YG end up with XLN

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying
    or perhaps he made GF so dispicable b/c he decided to make YG end up with XLN
    He seemed to have been developing Gwok Fu as a foil for Yeung Gor from the very beginning, so probably not.

    If anything, had the Little Dragon Girl dead, Yeung Gor survives scenario played out, Little Dragon Girl's replacement would likely have been Ching Ying.

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Jin Yong wrote "Linked Cities" based on the real-life experience of a man he knew during childhood. After being framed for theft, tortured and thrown into jail, the man (who also lost his pretty fiancee in the process) eventually had a reprieve when JY's grandfather (who was a member of the local authority) helped to secure his release. The man eventually found shelter and safety as a servant in the young JY's home.

    Therefore, I think "Linked Cities" was written with a fairly positive ending in mind, because like the servant, Di Yun lost almost everything, but eventually found shelter, safety and peace in a most unlikely place.

    This true story (in Chinese) is found here.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

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    i've read the stories, and as an over all look/feel, i do feel like the stories were writting as it's going along. i'm not so sure on each individual story, but the triology i have a feeling he was just feeling it out along the way...

    his story are so complicated, and that what makes me think that it's not entirely planed out. i mean if u add the triology together, that's like freaking thousands of events/plot line and in between all the little details and twist. JY was a good writer but i'm not sure if he couldda thought of something like that all together.

    and also if he had a sad ending for ROCH, i'm pretty sure the sale would drop like a rock ... it's already sticking to me about the 16 years wait. it just make me feel that the author didn't want a happy ending.

    i'm thinking he's writing the stories by junk, let say sometimes 1-3 chapters together, then he plan out the next junk. and not per issue....

    it's kindda similar to shows on TV. the whole seasons are planned out with scripts and everything, but the 2nd season is starting with new scripts/story line once it's been confirm to air... they never write the 2nd season before the 1st season is over unless they know it's gonna continiues. and once the shows starts to slow down, they'll plan out the finally season even if it is forced to change the story line a bit, they must finish it by that season.
    Last edited by warlock110; 07-18-06 at 02:48 AM.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    While Jin Yong was off on holiday, his good friend Ni Kuang came up with the idea of blinding Ah Zhi, and he continued with that.
    ..ext88

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    While Jin Yong was off on holiday, his good friend Ni Kuang came up with the idea of blinding Ah Zhi, and he continued with that.
    Jin Yong probably didn't have much choice. Although DGSD was his novel, it would have been insulting to his friend Ni Kuang to just retcon out what Ni had written.

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    Senior Member Laviathan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    One fairly well known fact about the writing of ROCH was that Jin Yong originally intended for the story to have a tragic ending, with both Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl dying.
    Not quite true. Please get your facts right: Jin Yong intended ROCH to have an open ending, with the dissapearance of Dragon Girl, and Yang Guo deciding to wait for her. The later chapters (post-16 years separation) were added after fans became unhappy.
    對 敵 須 狠 , 斬 草 除 根 , 男 女 老 幼 , 不 留 一 人

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That makes you wonder: did Jin Yong end up with the story that he started out writing? For example, when writing the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY novels or STATE OF DIVINITY or DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS, did he already know in Chapter 1 what would ultimately happen to each of the characters by the final chapter? Or did he kind of just make it up as he went along with some vague ideas of where he wanted the story to go, but with no real set plan?
    At least in the earlier phase of his career as a novelist, Jin Yong used to write each installment of the serial the night before it was published. I have a feeling that LOCH was written without too much planning; I think JY just let his pen follow his imagination, and funnily enough, LOCH turned out the best in the Trilogy. ROCH and HSDS bear the hallmarks of being relatively more 'constructed', but they actually ended up suffering for it.

    Writing a novel in this way is not optimal. There are problems throughout the Trilogy - filler scenes, awkward narration of multiple subplots, and above all pretty unconvincing and rushed endings - that can be traced from this method of composition. Many things would have been 'fixed' as a result of JY's successive revisions, but the fact is that much of the substance of each novel was basically created on the fly. I imagine it's a bit like painting a picture by first of all dividing your canvas up into several hundred little patches, and then painting each patch in turn, one per day. When you finally stand back after a year or two and look at the whole thing, the overall picture might be a bit of a surprise, and it might be pretty messy.

    From what I hear, JY got better at dealing with this over time.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    Jin Yong wrote "Linked Cities" based on the real-life experience of a man he knew during childhood. After being framed for theft, tortured and thrown into jail, the man (who also lost his pretty fiancee in the process) eventually had a reprieve when JY's grandfather (who was a member of the local authority) helped to secure his release. The man eventually found shelter and safety as a servant in the young JY's home.

    Therefore, I think "Linked Cities" was written with a fairly positive ending in mind, because like the servant, Di Yun lost almost everything, but eventually found shelter, safety and peace in a most unlikely place.

    This true story (in Chinese) is found here.
    I've read part of this artcle (section involving He Sheng only). The part about is grandpa has too many phrase I don't understand, so , I skip it. The article just said He Sheng was framed by a rich guy, but why did the rich guy frame him?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    I've read part of this artcle (section involving He Sheng only). The part about is grandpa has too many phrase I don't understand, so , I skip it. The article just said He Sheng was framed by a rich guy, but why did the rich guy frame him?
    He wanted his fiancee.
    ..ext88

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    He wanted his fiancee.
    Which part of the aticle said so?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    The article just said He Sheng was framed by a rich guy, but why did the rich guy frame him?
    There is actually no explicitly-stated connection between the rich guy who framed him and the reason why the rich guy did so.

    But here are 2 lines (in the sequence they appeared in the story) that you will find helpful:

    (1)
    他的未婚妻给财主少爷娶了去做继室.
    His fiancee had been taken by the son of the rich man as his second wife, for the first wife had passed away.

    (2)
    他从牢里出来之后,知道这一切都是那财主少爷陷害.
    After coming out of jail, he found out that he had been framed by the son of the rich man.

    Therefore, a logical reading would eventually lead to this conclusion: That the son of the rich man framed He Sheng because he wanted to marry He Sheng's pretty fiancee.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    There is actually no explicitly-stated connection between the rich guy who framed him and the reason why the rich guy did so.

    But here are 2 lines (in the sequence they appeared in the story) that you will find helpful:

    (1)
    他的未婚妻给财主少爷娶了去做继室.
    His fiancee had been taken by the son of the rich man as his second wife, for the first wife had passed away.

    (2)
    他从牢里出来之后,知道这一切都是那财主少爷陷害.
    After coming out of jail, he found out that he had been framed by the son of the rich man.

    Therefore, a logical reading would eventually lead to this conclusion: That the son of the rich man framed He Sheng because he wanted to marry He Sheng's pretty fiancee.
    Damn. How did I miss this whole line?

    在这段时期中,他父亲、母亲都气死了,他的未婚妻给财主少爷娶了去做继室。

    Got to get my brain and eyes check. I sure look stupid now (someone so stupid that she can't even put two and two together to make a conclusion). So mad at myself now.
    Last edited by kidd; 07-19-06 at 02:12 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member c13:4567's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    Jin Yong intended ROCH to have an open ending, with the dissapearance of Dragon Girl, and Yang Guo deciding to wait for her. The later chapters (post-16 years separation) were added after fans became unhappy.

    this is news to me, thanks Laviathan. fans do mean something afterall

  20. #20
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c13:4567
    this is news to me, thanks Laviathan. fans do mean something afterall
    Jin Yong did have to pay the bills, after all, and it doesn't help one's pocketbook to alienate the fan base.

    Moreover, he must have concluded that after dragging Yeung Gor through so much in ROCH, having the story end on a bum note really wasn't the way he wanted to go (unlike later in DGSD, where he had a point to make with the tragic ending of Kiu Fung; if ROCH were to end tragically, the final message would have been that love is futile and vain).

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