View Poll Results: Should the Chinese forgive the Japanese?

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  • Definitely not. What they did in the past was horrific!

    49 33.33%
  • Yes. What's past is past, we should forget and move on...

    73 49.66%
  • No opinion on this issue

    25 17.01%
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Thread: Should the Chinese forgive the Japanese?

  1. #41
    Senior Member xiaoshan's Avatar
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    No comments for this though what happened in the past was really bad. I think the older generation might not be able to get over it. As for us, those who had not gone through that horrible period will not know how it feels like.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnydayz3
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_Aquaris
    If possible, letting the Japanese know about the horrific events that happened years ago is a way of making old events re-occur.
    I cannot for the life of me understand how letting the Japanese descendants know about the horrific events that happened years ago would make old events re-occur. What are you saying exactly? By having the Japanese government admit past wrongs will one day make a young Japanese man go "hey, my grandfather raped a bunch of women, guess I'll go do it too"?!
    Got to agree with sunnyday23 on this one.

    In fact, I would go further and say *not* letting them know, not reminding them (which is what your forgiving entails basically), is just one road to having it re-occur!

    How can they learn their lesson, if they forget or never admit it ever happened?

    If a kid did something wrong and doesn't admit it, it would be premature to forgive him.... Not if you want to prevent the same thing from happening again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetDriftr
    I wonder if the Jews hold the same sentiment for the Germans...
    Well it sure helps that the Germans admit what they did. Heck they are so determined that it will never happen again and that people will not forget , they have laws that make denying the holocaust a crime for example and laws supressing neo-nazism activity.

    Germans are very ashamed about Hitler and WWII,it is so ingrained into their psyche that they see shadows everywhere, talk to any German and you will see .... They fear the rise of Hitler like figures that they see them everywhere.

    Compare this to japanese who are hardly aware of what they have done in world war ii. What little they know about WWII, is written from a POV that justifies their aggression!
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  4. #44
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    Time doesn't cleanse away the atrocities, but the Jap government certainly think that. Do they not think of themselves as superiors of asia.

  5. #45
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    The Japanese justification attitude probably originated when MacArthur wanted to keep the Emperor as touchstone for the Japanese people. They made Tojo recant his first war crimes trial statement which implicated the Emperor as having full knowledge of what went on. His new statement said the the Emperor knew very little about what actually went on during the war. The Japanese historians may have used that bit of sanitizing as an excuse to do the same.

    The attitude of superiority is not exactly unknown in China either.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesG
    The Japanese justification attitude probably originated when MacArthur wanted to keep the Emperor as touchstone for the Japanese people. They made Tojo recant his first war crimes trial statement which implicated the Emperor as having full knowledge of what went on. His new statement said the the Emperor knew very little about what actually went on during the war. The Japanese historians may have used that bit of sanitizing as an excuse to do the same.
    By self justification I refer to the fact that the american and british denied Japan access to natural resources like rubber, tin etc... This meant that the japense had to invade south east asia to seize these resources.

    Plus, they wanted to free their fellow asians from the evil western overlords of course.
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  7. #47
    Senior Member Phoenix_Aquaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnydayz3
    You seem to be saying "ok, let's just forget about it and go on because let's all not fight anymore!". Which is a valid point if only the Japanese acknowledged their faults. The danger of just forgetting and moving on is that the Japanese or their descendants will not realize the mistakes of the past and the Chinese and Koreans can never really bury the hatchet in terms of the animosity.
    The future generation of Japan will have to ask for forgiveness for the mistakes made by their ancestors?

    This might be reasonable though. IF the Japanese admitted their mistakes, the fact remains that they don't. The new generation Japanese knew little about the atrocities committed in WWII, and suddenly they met this huge mob of people howling for their blood. And their elders and their textbooks told them "no such thing happened in the past, all you hear from the Chinese are mere unfounded fabrications".

    Indeed, burying the hatchet means realising mistakes, but the young Japanese were not informed of it. There is no way of getting the message through with the interference of the older generation, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be forgiven. We know how the Japanese government is behaving now, yet we still try to force it right down in the throats of all the Japanese about their past. As if the Japanese who were there during the WWII would just sit there letting the whole nation know. A moment as everybody calm down, when it is a opportune moment to do so, do it. This may take a long time but the cHinese must understand and stop these pointless arguments and concentrate on other affairs. This heated argument will lead to nowhere good, I don't deny the Japanese are being quite overbearing in this aspect, but it is really no good continuing this.

    I cannot for the life of me understand how letting the Japanese descendants know about the horrific events that happened years ago would make old events re-occur. What are you saying exactly? By having the Japanese government admit past wrongs will one day make a young Japanese man go "hey, my grandfather raped a bunch of women, guess I'll go do it too"?!
    I said if possible. That is, if both countries began turning violent if this matter does not have a happy ending to it. I'm comparing this possibility to the part where the Japanese have yet to realise their horrific past. Unless you say...
    Quote Originally Posted by Spanner
    Got to agree with sunnyday23 on this one.

    In fact, I would go further and say *not* letting them know, not reminding them (which is what your forgiving entails basically), is just one road to having it re-occur!

    How can they learn their lesson, if they forget or never admit it ever happened?

    If a kid did something wrong and doesn't admit it, it would be premature to forgive him.... Not if you want to prevent the same thing from happening again.
    This falls into the trap of assuming future generations will follow what their ancestors did, even without knowing what happened during those times. When these "kids" did nothing wrong, you will have to punish them for what their seniors did, eh?

    The kid you mentioned is not the kid who committed those mistakes. And might i mention this "mistake" we are talking about- the killings and the rapings, is not something all kids(or people/countries in reality) might start doing if not given the proper punishment. If you forgave these new generation of Japanese, must you make sure every coming generation of Japanese must also ask for forgiveness, to prevent the same old cycle from happening again? This is as well as saying only Japanese do such crimes!

  8. #48
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    If the Japanese government wants to end the animosity some chinese ppl foster towards the Japanese govt and the PRC's use of it to beat them down politically then they should take a leaf out of Germany's book. Formally recognising the evils that happened and apologising properly - not disguising the wording so much that it becomes meaningless. Educating it's public about it, not allowing the constant revisions of textbooks about it.

    The PM also needs to stop visiting the shrines of war criminals - i think not even the Emperor goes there. Of course the PM is doing it for his own political purposes but can you imagine the German chancellor doing it?

    When a recent japanese manga contained propaganda and BS such as "Korea invited the invasion" i think Japan's efforts fall far short of Germany.

    I often wonder if it is linked to Japan's psyche that they rather sweep it under the rug rather than admit wrong and tackle it once and for all.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_Aquaris
    This falls into the trap of assuming future generations will follow what their ancestors did, even without knowing what happened during those times.
    Trap? Nobody is saying that the Japanese are certainly doomed to repeat their mistakes, but certainly not knowing that they made the mistake, makes it more likely to be repeated.

    You know what they say about not learning from history....


    The kid you mentioned is not the kid who committed those mistakes.
    Given that we are talking about questions of country "character" and "culture", the 'kid' is certainly the same one.

    National culture and character is deeply ingrained and seldom changes, unless there is a big painful shock to the system.

    That was what happened to the Germans after WWII as I have said.

    The Japanese unfortunately have not changed because they have no reason to. Why shold they? According to them they didn't do anything, this means the culture that was capable of all this evil still remains and it is not good to bet against the same thing happening if circumstances permit.



    And might i mention this "mistake" we are talking about- the killings and the rapings, is not something all kids(or people/countries in reality) might start doing if not given the proper punishment.
    My dear girl, please refrain from spewing absolutes. If you are looking for absolute certainity by talking about "all kids", "might do" etc, but course no one can give you certainty.

    But it is reasonable to assume that if yoon't know what mistakes you have made, you are more likely to repeat them. That is wisdom that deserves to be heeded, without worrying if it applies to "all kids".

    Or is this how you get out of punishments?

    "I know it's true that most kids need punishments for them to learn discipline, but it doesn't apply to me, I'm not one of these kids."

    "BTW because it doesn't apply to all kids, you shouldn't punish kids at all because it is not necessary for everyone"
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_Aquaris

    This falls into the trap of assuming future generations will follow what their ancestors did, even without knowing what happened during those times. When these "kids" did nothing wrong, you will have to punish them for what their seniors did, eh?
    Omg, for the last time, no one is looking to punish the 'kids' for what their ancestors did! No one is looking to throw the 'kids' in jail for what their grandparents did. No one is looking to 'repeat the cycle' by forcing the 'kids' to beg for forgiveness for what their ancestors did! We're not looking to damn the 'kids' to hell. We realize that the kids and their grandparents are separate entities and must be treated as such.

    What people want is for the kids to realize what their ancestors did so that they know it is wrong and know their country's true history so the same mistakes won't be repeated!
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  11. #51
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    I think the Chinese, Japanese and Korean have had reason to hate for a lot longer then 60 years.

    Given that the peace in the world can only be maintained by the united harmony of all mankind, we must do our best to acheive this lofty aspiration. For this I propose that China annex Korea and Japan and any dissenters shall be punished.

    Seriously, I don't think whether China/Korea should or should not forgive Japan matters. In the short term China and Korea /will/ not forgive Japan. In the long term if things proceed as it has in the last thousand or so years, there will be no love-fest between China/Korea and Japan.

    Government and the people that operate it will continue to whitewash it's laundry list of sins.
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  12. #52
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    I think that the Chinese should forgive the Japanese after the Tibetians have forgave the Chinese.

    After that, then the Chinese should demand apologies from the Mongols!
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  13. #53
    Senior Member Phoenix_Aquaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnydayz3
    What people want is for the kids to realize what their ancestors did so that they know it is wrong and know their country's true history so the same mistakes won't be repeated!
    It is their fault that they can't realise what their ancestors did, when they kept receiving chants such as "What the Chinese said are all lies.. Don't believe them.."?

    We know they are two different entities, as you called them, but why do you think that the Chinese shouldn't forgive them if they did no such wrong?

    My dear girl, please refrain from spewing absolutes. If you are looking for absolute certainity by talking about "all kids", "might do" etc, but course no one can give you certainty.
    And you talk about not spewing absolutes..

    That was what happened to the Germans after WWII as I have said.
    The Germans knew of what happened during WWII. Knowing what their ancestors might make them feel right to do the same, of course they did not really find it a mistake, hence no correction done.

    National culture and character is deeply ingrained and seldom changes, unless there is a big painful shock to the system.
    I'm sure their national culture encourages them to get as violent and cruel as their ancestors.

    But it is reasonable to assume that if yoon't know what mistakes you have made, you are more likely to repeat them. That is wisdom that deserves to be heeded, without worrying if it applies to "all kids".
    IF they committed a mistake, yes, they deserved to get punished. But did they? It is admirable to do something to prevent the same thing from happening again. I did not say they should be kept in the dark for long, but at least for the time being, forcing the truth down their throats is not a wise thing to do yet IMO.

    You seem to be giving me the impression of punishing the kids when they committed no offence(or in your case, yet). If the message can't get through, I do not mean for China to give up and pretend nothing has happened, but it is just clearly not working for the time being!

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_Aquaris
    You seem to be giving me the impression of punishing the kids when they committed no offence(or in your case, yet). If the message can't get through, I do not mean for China to give up and pretend nothing has happened, but it is just clearly not working for the time being!
    You keep insisting on not 'punishing the kids for what they didn't do'. So what you're saying is that having the kids know their true history is a punishment?!
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  15. #55

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    Bad things happen in war time, the Russian armies committed mass rape during the "liberation" of Germany from Nazi rule. I haven't met many Germans that still hold a grudge against that (though, as in Fawlty Towers, the Germans don't like to bring up the war ), and it's not like the Chinese wouldn't have slaughtered the Japanese if China had the opportunity to invade Japan.

    *Yawn* This is a non-issue in my opinion. If the Japanese DO apologize, will the Chinese government tone down its rhetoric and propaganda? No, of course not and it'll be naive to think that they will. If the Japanese DON'T apologize, are they "doomed" to repeat the same "mistakes" again? No, not really (seriously, if you can forsee a circumstance in which Japan will raise an imperialistic army and invade/conquer Korea and China within the next 20 to 50 years all the while avoiding at least an UN/NATO/EU economic sanction and at worst an invasion force from NATO, well, then let's just say you have an active imagination). If the Chinese DO "forgive" Japan, what happens? Nothing. If the Chinese DON'T, then what? Well, it's not like the US and Russia will allow China to invade Japan (nor could the Chinese), then all China can do is sit there and throw hissy fits like a spoiled brat/bully. And it's not like either China or Japan can afford to stop doing business with one another. Hey! What do you know? We are back where we started!

    Forgetting? There's no danger of anybody (even within Japan) forgetting what happened. (Hey, has any one forgotten the Spanish Inquisition? How about the Crusades? Oh, no? Wow, amazing, and nobody had to constantly wonder if we will forget either huh?)

    Yeah, the Japanese board of education made a mistake in approving a very seldomly used textbook that glossed over massacres. Those guys should be replaced and that textbook should not have been approved. But saying that it's symptomatic of the entire Japanese alleged "white washing", well, that's just wrong.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix_Aquaris

    And you talk about not spewing absolutes..
    I'm sure you think this is a clever remark, but pointing out a specific example of you doing that hardly means I'm guility of the same crime.

    The Germans knew of what happened during WWII. Knowing what their ancestors might make them feel right to do the same, of course they did not really find it a mistake, hence no correction done.
    You need to rephrase this, what are you trying to say again?

    I'm sure their national culture encourages them to get as violent and cruel as their ancestors.
    If you are trying for scarasm, you are failing badly. As mentioned by several others, the japenese sense of superority to the chinese is still alive and well and is indeed a contributing factor..


    It is admirable to do something to prevent the same thing from happening again. I did not say they should be kept in the dark for long, but at least for the time being, forcing the truth down their throats is not a wise thing to do yet IMO.

    LOL, they shouldn't be kept in the dark, but they shouldn't be told either, so what should be done?

    Remember not doing anything is keeping them in the dark by default.


    You seem to be giving me the impression of punishing the kids when they committed no offence(or in your case, yet).
    This is the most hilarous remark in the whole thread. Notice the thread is about whether we should "forgive" and not about punishment per se. You are the only one in the whole thread going on and on about punishment as if not forgiving japense means we are going to take a plane to tokyo and kill japenese.

    The fact is though, I think you consider even making japense recognise the facts or "forcing truth down their throats" (wow , you sure make delusion sound good) as you so colorfully put it as 'punishment'.

    Also there are other forms of 'punishment' like financial restitution which is a reminder and warning....
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    and it's not like the Chinese wouldn't have slaughtered the Japanese if China had the opportunity to invade Japan.
    Discussing hypothethicals is fun. But irrelevant. If such a thing did happen, no doubt, in some hypotheical board some japense will be having the equalavant of this discuss, on whether they should forgive the chinese.

    Pointing to the fact that other people have done the same, also doesn't excuse the crime.

    *Yawn* This is a non-issue in my opinion. If the Japanese DO apologize, will the Chinese government tone down its rhetoric and propaganda? No, of course not and it'll be naive to think that they will.
    Whether the chinese government will do or not is irrelevant and I seriously doubt you are qualified to guess at what will happen. For me and for many posters on this thread, the fact that they don't even admit the crimes is a sticking point, how can you forgive someone if they don't even have the decency of admitting they did wrong?

    If the Japanese DON'T apologize, are they "doomed" to repeat the same "mistakes" again? No, not really (seriously, if you can forsee a circumstance in which Japan will raise an imperialistic army and invade/conquer Korea and China within the next 20 to 50 years all the while avoiding at least an UN/NATO/EU economic sanction and at worst an invasion force from NATO, well, then let's just say you have an active imagination).
    Well, I'm sure you have a crystal ball that tells you that Japan will never ever become militaristic again, the rest of us are not so lucky. Could anyone living at the turn of the 20th century have predicted the role Japan would play in WWII?

    Probably not. Thinking you know for sure that Japan won't ever repeat their mistakes is sheer arrogance.

    If the Chinese DO "forgive" Japan, what happens? Nothing. If the Chinese DON'T, then what? Well, it's not like the US and Russia will allow China to invade Japan (nor could the Chinese), then all China can do is sit there and throw hissy fits like a spoiled brat/bully. And it's not like either China or Japan can afford to stop doing business with one another. Hey! What do you know? We are back where we started!
    Well you should seperate the issues. One is whether Japan SHOULD apologise. Talking about whether china has the power to force japan to apologise or whether it will do anything if it doesn't is a seperate issue.

    Forgetting? There's no danger of anybody (even within Japan) forgetting what happened.
    You would be surprised. Japense visitors to Singapore who visit Sentosa and learn about what they did in Singapore and Malaya are totally shocked. And they did far worse in china. They didn't forget so much as didn't know at all.

    (Hey, has any one forgotten the Spanish Inquisition? How about the Crusades? Oh, no? Wow, amazing, and nobody had to constantly wonder if we will forget either huh?)
    Well thankfully, in these cases both sides have admitted it. Heck the native americans are still having a field day.

    Yeah, the Japanese board of education made a mistake in approving a very seldomly used textbook that glossed over massacres. Those guys should be replaced and that textbook should not have been approved. But saying that it's symptomatic of the entire Japanese alleged "white washing", well, that's just wrong.
    LOL, you just lost whatever creditability you had. "Glossed over the massacres" in one "seldom used textbook" ? Until fairly recently there was NO mention at all. The fact that you refer to a textbook that "glosses over" is probably an improvement at least they admit there is something to cover up...
    A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a ****ing cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant.

  18. #58
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    Reasons are stated before but I'll say it again.

    The past is a past. Sure I know what they did was super horrific but- it wasnt mostly their people in general. It was more of their military forces and soldiers that did this type of shit.

    I think we should just forget it and get along well- too bad not everyone will buy into this- or else the world would'nt have been embraced with such hatred, troubles and war.

    But really, generations these days had no idea what it really was like back in those days in WWII so most of us go like : "eh forgive the Japanese.. [after all they did give us yummy food, sushi, cool electronics, anime, manga ..!! XDDD !!!]Love them :3 <333 "
    because generally they have 0 experience of what the nightmare was like and all about. Most of the unforgivers were the ancestors and of the older generation, who had experienced, suffered, saw with their own eyes, or cried with pain and hatred. Or anything similar to this.
    Unlike many of us, who only had the sympathy in our hearts for our people from the past few decades, and then shook it off to move on with life.

    But what's nagging is, although it cant be blamed at times, that the older generations had to constantly remind the younger ones of history and that the Japanese were "cold-blooded, ruthless and a joke to humanity to do such a thing" , and most of their intentions (not all), if you ask me, are to pass down that undying hatred forever so that we all know the Japanese are stupid sushi jerks.

    But besides having no experience at all whatsover - I hold no hate for the Japanese at all - lets not forget that it was mostly the Jap. soldiers and militaries, not their people in general. So we should get over it, hope the Japanese learn from this past mistake, promise to never repeat such a thing, and just move on. But again I probably wouldn't have said the same if I were one of those unfortunate ones back in the days.

    And I was one of the people who cant really bring myself to hold such loathe for the Japanese, as they did really give us many wonderful things and advance in technology :P Last but not least- I LOVE what they offered- the wonderful Japanese De-Ionization Straightening Have never experienced such a wonderful miracle in straight, sleeky and silky hair with such flow and shine
    Last edited by Kiss7; 08-04-06 at 04:42 AM.

  19. #59
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    Let's not forget that the Japanese soldiers and military were drawn from the Japanese people. This is not to say that one can assume directly that the people would behave the same as the soldiers, but merely to indicate that the behavior of the soldiers is indicative in some way of the temperment of the people. They are not two monolithic groups but rather there is much overlap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Let's not forget that the Japanese soldiers and military were drawn from the Japanese people. This is not to say that one can assume directly that the people would behave the same as the soldiers, but merely to indicate that the behavior of the soldiers is indicative in some way of the temperment of the people. They are not two monolithic groups but rather there is much overlap.
    Environment change people. The Red Guards during Culture Revoluntion disowned, critisized, punished and some even shot their own parents. So, can we say that chinese on a whole is a bunch ungrateful, unfilial heartless people by nature? That this is the chinese temperament?

    People can be brainwashed by environment. Soilders, after all the bloodshed and daily brainwashing by their leaders can become jaded, losing their conscience. These soilders were encouraged to be cruel to weaken the enemies. This doesn't mean the Japanese's temperament on the whole is like this.
    Last edited by kidd; 08-04-06 at 05:29 AM.
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