View Poll Results: Should the Chinese forgive the Japanese?

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  • Definitely not. What they did in the past was horrific!

    49 33.33%
  • Yes. What's past is past, we should forget and move on...

    73 49.66%
  • No opinion on this issue

    25 17.01%
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Thread: Should the Chinese forgive the Japanese?

  1. #61
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    I agree with kidd for most parts. Environment does change people, and many of these soldiers lost conscience under the many influences of leaders who were encouraging them to lose their humanity and act like beasts to the chinese people.

    And K2 - you do make a little sense- but seriously its not like their people and citizens in general wanted their troops to torture, put down and do such horrid things to our people. Im sure many of them felt bad, hoped their soldiers would quit such inhumanity and brutalness to innocent beings, and how such acts really provided a horrible reprsentative to them and their country, causing them to be hated by many.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    Environment change people. The Red Guards during Culture Revoluntion disowned, critisized, punished and some even shot their own parents. So, can we say that chinese on a whole is a bunch ungrateful, unfilial heartless people by nature? That this is the chinese temperament?

    People can be brainwashed by environment. Soilders, after all the bloodshed and daily brainwashing by their leaders can become jaded, losing their conscience. These soilders were encouraged to be cruel to weaken the enemies. This doesn't mean the Japanese's temperament on the whole is like this.
    However, the leaders are also part of the Japanese people. The definition of "people" does not mean "good", even though no one will claim an entire people are evil.

    It all boils down to human nature and how people change according to the environment. During the Cultural Revolution, Chinese soldiers (which count as people) under Chinese leaders (which also count as people) disowned, criticized, ed, shot, etc. the Chinese people (which also count as the people).

    This is not to say that there are not many occurences in which people of other cultures or races kill each other, nor is it to say that the Chinese or the Japanese are particularly unique in killing each other, or even that peoples differ in their tendencies towards these kinds of things. I am merely pointing out that it is not so simple to divide the population into two groups, that of The People and that of The Evil Government.

    It's sorta like when people claim that human nature is repressed by society, I disagree because it's human nature to make societies in the first place. Or when people say that a person's online behavior isn't indicative of their personality, I disagree because their personality dictates how they act when online, and if they act differently online/offline, that is part of their personality too. Although if you don't get what I am talking about in this paragraph, that is not particularly surprising since I'm not sure how it relates either now that I think about it.

  3. #63
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    No they are not allowed to forgive the Japanese until the Vietnamese forgive both of them first.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spanner
    Discussing hypothethicals is fun. But irrelevant. If such a thing did happen, no doubt, in some hypotheical board some japense will be having the equalavant of this discuss, on whether they should forgive the chinese.
    And no doubt with the same results.

    Pointing to the fact that other people have done the same, also doesn't excuse the crime.
    No, you are discussing this from a moralistic point of view, I'm discussing it from a practical/political point. Nowhere in there did I say Japan should or should not apologize or that China should or should not forgive. But whether they will or will not, for political reasons.

    Whether the chinese government will do or not is irrelevant and I seriously doubt you are qualified to guess at what will happen. For me and for many posters on this thread, the fact that they don't even admit the crimes is a sticking point, how can you forgive someone if they don't even have the decency of admitting they did wrong?
    That's assuming they want/need your forgiveness. If they don't care, as is the case now, it's all makes for a non-issue.

    And I seriously doubt you are qualified enough as a moralist to postulate as to the right and wrongs of "apologies" and "forgiviness" for debatably structured war crimes carried out in a geo-political/historical/philosophical environment. But hey, I take your opinion into consideration.

    Well, I'm sure you have a crystal ball that tells you that Japan will never ever become militaristic again, the rest of us are not so lucky. Could anyone living at the turn of the 20th century have predicted the role Japan would play in WWII?
    Uh, yes. Actually, everyone could. In 1894, Japan invaded Korea. There's a sign there. And then in 1904, Japan attacked the Russian base of Port Arthur and started the Russo-Japanese War. It was obvious Japan is turning imperialistic and militaristic due to the lack of natural resources for industry on the Japanese islands. You picked a bad case for your counter example here.

    Note I didn't say Japan never will, just not in the next 20 to 50 years. Another 50 years, WW2 will be as far away to as the American Civil War is to us. By then, something else will dominate global politics and then who knows?

    Probably not. Thinking you know for sure that Japan won't ever repeat their mistakes is sheer arrogance.
    And repeat it on whom exactly? China? Korea? Russia? Who is Japan going to invade and slaughter?

    Which country in that region looks like it's going to go for a hegemony huh? China or Japan? Which is the country with the nuclear weapon? Which is the country who is currently throwing its military weight around and trying to intimidate other nations into relinquishing claims to the Spratley Islands?

    Well you should seperate the issues. One is whether Japan SHOULD apologise. Talking about whether china has the power to force japan to apologise or whether it will do anything if it doesn't is a seperate issue.
    Quite correct, so therefore we are talking about 2 different things. What I said does not infringe on what you are arguing... much.

    You would be surprised. Japense visitors to Singapore who visit Sentosa and learn about what they did in Singapore and Malaya are totally shocked. And they did far worse in china. They didn't forget so much as didn't know at all.
    And I'm sure you'd be surprised to learn exactly what China did in Tibet and other places (assuming you are Chinese, if you are Singaporean, how the Chinese and the locals interacted when the Chinese first migrated to Singapore, etc.). People don't like to talk about crap they did to other people in detail. Not to mention different things are played up at different places. For example, as a Chinese, you are never taught about what Japan did in Singapore and Malaysia either. Does that make us ignorant on the subject of Japanese brutality as well?

    Well thankfully, in these cases both sides have admitted it. Heck the native americans are still having a field day.
    No, not at all. The Native American community is still the poorest demographic in America. Those casinos on Indian Resorts are "fool's gold" as the community just loses money to the casinos (ya know, living right next to it). It is just sad situation overall.

    LOL, you just lost whatever creditability you had. "Glossed over the massacres" in one "seldom used textbook" ? Until fairly recently there was NO mention at all. The fact that you refer to a textbook that "glosses over" is probably an improvement at least they admit there is something to cover up...
    Umm... I think you are wrong there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing...tbook_incident

    The controversy flared up again in 1982, when the Japanese Ministry of Education censored any mention of the Nanking Massacre in a high school textbook. The reason given by the ministry was that the Nanking Massacre was not a well-established historical event. The author of the textbook, Professor Saburō Ienaga, sued the Ministry of Education in an extended case, which was won by the plaintiff in 1997.
    Also:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_Japan#1990s

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_Japan#2000s

    See if you think those are good enough. If not, well, I wouldn't expect much more than more along similiar lines in the future, from a practical political point of view.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 08-04-06 at 09:08 AM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    Umm... I think you are wrong there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing...tbook_incident
    Also:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_Japan#1990s
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...by_Japan#2000s

    See if you think those are good enough. If not, well, I wouldn't expect much more than more along similiar lines in the future, from a practical political point of view.
    Please, let's refrain from using wikipedia as a 'scholarly resource', hmm?
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    No they are not allowed to forgive the Japanese until the Vietnamese forgive both of them first.
    That's a different debate and a worthy one, may I add.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon
    And I'm sure you'd be surprised to learn exactly what China did in Tibet and other places (assuming you are Chinese, if you are Singaporean, how the Chinese and the locals interacted when the Chinese first migrated to Singapore, etc.). People don't like to talk about crap they did to other people in detail. Not to mention different things are played up at different places. For example, as a Chinese, you are never taught about what Japan did in Singapore and Malaysia either. Does that make us ignorant on the subject of Japanese brutality as well?
    Not necessarily, what with Chinese propaganda Chinese have to search for 'detailed history' (for lack of a better word) for what their own government has done to other people as well. Your example of China in Tibet - the 'ordinary Chinese' may not know much about it due to China's propaganda/biased media but there are Chinese who do know what the Chinese government did. I'm a good example. I wrote my undergraduate thesis on it. It's useless to argue about which country has used propaganda, biased media, etc. We all know that all countries do it, and I'm sure 100% of the posters here know that China is no saint (I mentioned this point on this thread somewhere, probably pg 2).

    My point is that you can't use the reasoning of 'Oh, China hasn't fully admitted to what happened in Tibet so Japan doesn't need to with regards to China/Korea either' - that's an entirely different debate. Maybe create another thread on 'Should the Tibetans forgive the Chinese' and all the posters here can move there and discuss that.
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spanner
    This is the most hilarous remark in the whole thread. Notice the thread is about whether we should "forgive" and not about punishment per se. You are the only one in the whole thread going on and on about punishment as if not forgiving japense means we are going to take a plane to tokyo and kill japenese.
    Thank you. I feel like I'm talking to a wall or something. Haha j/k.
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  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunnydayz3
    Please, let's refrain from using wikipedia as a 'scholarly resource', hmm?
    Not scholarly sources, but sources for reference, especially for that list of quotes. It's a quickhand list of statements of things people have said. I wasn't about to go and find the actual sources where they made those statemends.

    But anyways, here's something that seems fairly comprehensive about the textbooks. (I think it actually has quotes from the books.)

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050328_2.htm

    My point is that you can't use the reasoning of 'Oh, China hasn't fully admitted to what happened in Tibet so Japan doesn't need to with regards to China/Korea either' - that's an entirely different debate. Maybe create another thread on 'Should the Tibetans forgive the Chinese' and all the posters here can move there and discuss that.
    Quite right. It is a sort of non-sequitor. However, it works to put the "shoe on the other foot" against a particular debator, so to speak. Different debate, different situations, I agree completely. But the Chinese "Tibet? Yeah, not fun..." attitude is not far away from the Japanese sentiment of "well, I'd rather not talk about such unpleasant things".
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 08-04-06 at 10:19 AM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  10. #70

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    LOL, you just lost whatever creditability you had. "Glossed over the massacres" in one "seldom used textbook" ? Until fairly recently there was NO mention at all. The fact that you refer to a textbook that "glosses over" is probably an improvement at least they admit there is something to cover up...
    Anyways, here we go:

    http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050328_2.htm

    Slightly more reliable than wikipedia, to say the least.

    The 2001 versions of this particular text book is pretty glossy, pointing out that the Chinese wasn't exactly completely innocent either. But still, that's a "blame the victim" tactic.

    The proposed 2005 revisions are pretty bad in general. I do not know if they have been accepted or not for this particular text book. Maybe someone who knows better can inform us (well, me at least).

    But if you scroll down some more, you get:

    "Please be mindful that the controversy is raised over one proposed history textbook that has been submitted for screening and may yet be rejected, and that schools can choose to use other textbooks. The 2001 edition of this book was adopted by only 0.1% of Japan's middle and high schools. So this is not a mainstream phenomenon, but it manages to be a lightning rod."

    Like I said, seldomly used textbook that an ultra-right wing group wrote in 1982, and it was only approved by the Board in 1989.

    So I don't know where you got the idea that "until recently there was no mention at all".

    Last I checked, less than 0.1% is, well, considered seldomly used.

    The page I linked on went on to say:

    "The real story here is that a small number of ultra-rightists is pushing their revisionist agenda in the educational system by patiently nibbling at history textbooks one sentence at a time, with the connivance of a few highly placed officials who are contravening a provision of "consideration for Japan's Asian neighbors" in such matters. What else can the Asians do other than 'give them hell' every four years?"

    The answer? Not much. And even the ultra-right wingers are fighting for pittance here as well. Anything they dream up, one good movie or so 50 years down the road and it'll all change. (Braveheart anyone?)
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  11. #71
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    I've heard someone put it nicely once, "Forgive, but not forget".

    What they did was pretyt horrendous...I mean, sure, the US might be dropping bombs in Iraq now, but the Japanese swept through entire cities and murdered/raped everyone they saw - men, women, children.

    Because Japan and China have both changed since then, I think that China should forgive Japan for that incident, but never forget the experiences it brought to those who lived through the incident.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon

    No, you are discussing this from a moralistic point of view, I'm discussing it from a practical/political point.
    Of course I am. Please read the title of the thread again, and ask yourself whether it makes sense to discuss it from a political point

    That's assuming they want/need your forgiveness. If they don't care, as is the case now, it's all makes for a non-issue.
    Bingo , that makes your own argument from the practical/political point of view pretty silly no?


    And I seriously doubt you are qualified enough as a moralist to postulate as to the right and wrongs of "apologies" and "forgiviness" for debatably structured war crimes carried out in a geo-political/historical/philosophical environment. But hey, I take your opinion into consideration.
    What a mouthful lol.

    Trust me, I'm way more qualified to do that compared to you predicting whether a war will occur in some indefinite future or not!

    Uh, yes. Actually, everyone could. In 1894, Japan invaded Korea. There's a sign there. And then in 1904, Japan attacked the Russian base of Port Arthur and started the Russo-Japanese War. It was obvious Japan is turning imperialistic and militaristic due to the lack of natural resources for industry on the Japanese islands.
    Actually, I already knew you would say that. But you heard what they said about hindsight being 20/20? If it was so predictable, the Americans wouldn't have being caught with their pants down. Who would have thought they would be bold enough to attack America without warning?

    The actual always seems to be predictable once it has happened but surprisingly few of those fortune tellers succueed in giving warnings in advance..

    Note I didn't say Japan never will, just not in the next 20 to 50 years. Another 50 years, WW2 will be as far away to as the American Civil War is to us. By then, something else will dominate global politics and then who knows?
    National character of the united states has remained roughly constant for over 150 years , Japan for even longer, looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing.

    And repeat it on whom exactly? China? Korea? Russia? Who is Japan going to invade and slaughter?
    yes it is unthinkable now that Japan will invade Korea, Russia etc. Just as unthinkable it will launch a crazy war against the Allies...

    Which country in that region looks like it's going to go for a hegemony huh? China or Japan?
    Japan already has as good as a hegemony by exterting it influence over the united states. Whether they will be satisifed with that in the future who knows? Right, you do.

    Which is the country with the nuclear weapon?
    Which country has threatened to go for nuclear weapons if North korea gets her own?

    And I'm sure you'd be surprised to learn exactly what China did in Tibet and other places (assuming you are Chinese, if you are Singaporean, how the Chinese and the locals interacted when the Chinese first migrated to Singapore, etc.).
    What makes you think I don't know about it (check your assumptions though).

    People don't like to talk about crap they did to other people in detail. Not to mention different things are played up at different places. For example, as a Chinese, you are never taught about what Japan did in Singapore and Malaysia either. Does that make us ignorant on the subject of Japanese brutality as well?
    Wow, talk about poor logic.

    The mainland chinese may not know about brutalities in Singapore can hardly be equated with Japanese not knowing about brutalities they did!

    The former is not part of the history of china (so why should they know it?), the latter IS part of the history of the japense so of course they are ignorant if they don't know about it!
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0-0-0
    american history books claim WW1 started in 1916
    how self centered of them!
    Ummm... I never learned that WW1 started in 1916... WW1 started in 1914. All my "american history books" say so. I can't find any reference that says WW1 started in 1916...

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spanner
    Of course I am. Please read the title of the thread again, and ask yourself whether it makes sense to discuss it from a political point
    Are you? I'm sorry, I don't see it.

    Bingo , that makes your own argument from the practical/political point of view pretty silly no?
    Huh? What? I guess you mis-understood my point. They don't care politically; so practically, they won't apologize, even if they do care morally (and many Japanese do). Nor do Japan, politically, need China's forgiveness.

    What a mouthful lol.
    Well, I was trying to avoid being too general. It's what I get for being polite.

    Trust me, I'm way more qualified to do that compared to you predicting whether a war will occur in some indefinite future or not!
    Uh huh.

    Didn't I say my prediction stands only for the next 20-50 years? I never said anything about it beyond 20-50 years. Hah! Nice try, but you can't sneak that one by me.

    Actually, I already knew you would say that. But you heard what they said about hindsight being 20/20? If it was so predictable, the Americans wouldn't have being caught with their pants down. Who would have thought they would be bold enough to attack America without warning?
    Wow, there's a statement from someone who has no idea of the history of WWII. America didn't get caught by surprise strategically, only tactically at Pearl Harbor. Started in 1890 by Teddy Roosevelt, revised in 1898, the US navy commissioned a war plan called Plan Orange that basically spelt out how the Navy thinks a pacific war against Japan would play itself out. The plan was further revised and developed in 1930. It basically started off with the premise that Japan will launch a surprise attack on an American base in the Pacific (either Manilla, Midway, or Pearl Harbor, they did not know which) to try and knock out the American Pacific fleet for at least a space of time, which would allow the Imperial Navy to gain vast amount of territorial gains and sue for peace before America gets around to hitting the Japanese back (basically, the Japanese strategy for the Russo-Japanese War, except on a larger scale).

    By 1941, most people in the American armed forces knew that if the US didn't go to war with Japan, Japan would go to war first. And if they do, they'd do like they always do: surprise attack, again, at one of the 3 places. Of course, nobody knew exactly where or when. But to say that it was completely unexpected is also very wrong.

    Of course, after Pearl Harbor, the US gov't really played up the "unprovoked" angle for propaganda sake.

    (First hit on a google search for "Plan Orange": http://www.avalanchepress.com/gameNPO.html)

    Although, I think wikipedia offers a bit more:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Plan_Orange

    Or maybe this:

    http://history.acusd.edu/gen/st/~pbugler/page5.htm

    "Phase I: United States expected that Japan would take over lightly defended American outposts to secure supply of oil and other raw materials. These territories would involve the American outposts to the south and west of Japan. The United States would not be able to defend these territories successfully due to the War Plan Orange War Plan Orange concentration of the US Navy at home ports. However, the US Navy could mobilize in the Eastern Pacific."

    Those "American outposts"? Could it be places like Wake Island and the Philippines?

    Of course, War Plan Orange did not anticipate that the Japanese attack would be so good as to knock out all battleships in the US Pacific fleet or the general prominence of air-craft carriers. Oh well, they are not you, I suppose. Can't predict the future like you.

    There is, also, of course, the Robert's Commission, to examine why the naval base of Pearl Harbor was so ill prepared to deal with attack. The Commission found that the commanding officers at the base was at fault, mainly due to the fact that before the attack, many orders were issued to the base regarding the rising possibility of the Japanese declaring war.

    This is a direct quote from the Robert's Commission:

    "On the same day (November 27, 1941), the Chief of Naval Operations sent
    a message to the commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, which stated
    in substance that the dispatch was to be considered a war warning; that
    the negotiations with Japan in an effort to stabilize conditions in the
    Pacific had ended; that Japan was expected to make an aggressive move
    within the next few days; "


    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/roberts/roberts.html

    Lastly, if America was so completely and utterly surprised by this whole thing, then why was the US and Japan even negotiating leading up to the attacks? Why do you suppose they were negotiating? To, maybe, avoid going to war?

    For someone who is very good at predicting the future, you sure don't know about the past very much at all.

    The actual always seems to be predictable once it has happened but surprisingly few of those fortune tellers succueed in giving warnings in advance..

    National character of the united states has remained roughly constant for over 150 years , Japan for even longer, looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing.
    Before I go on, I'd like to point out that you wrote those 2 paragraphs back to back. Let's pause and think on this for a moment.

    150 years ago, almost all blacks in America were slaves, most of the midwest and great plains states were all Indian terroritory, there was hardly any Americans in California, and the biggest city in America had less than 1 million people living in it.

    Japan's national character switched DRAMATICALLY about 150 years ago, from an completely insular nation to a nation yearning to learn from the outside. Then, 100 years ago, it became imperialistic again for the FIRST TIME SINCE 1590s.

    yes it is unthinkable now that Japan will invade Korea, Russia etc. Just as unthinkable it will launch a crazy war against the Allies...
    So unthinkable that the US navy department worked out a entire war plan in 1930 detailing how the US should defeat Japan. So unthinkable that less than 2 weeks before the actual attack, the US Navy department in Washington issued a dispatch telling Pearl Harbor that war was imminent.

    But anyways, I like your arguments here. My argument has been:

    1) Japan will not be a military threat to anybody in that region in the next 20-50 years because of the political situation it has found itself surrounded in and
    2) after that, I haven't the vaguest of clues.

    Your counter, however has been:
    1) At the turn of the 20th Century, nobody predicted Japan would get into a war 41 years later and that
    2) "looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing".

    So basically, you are arguing that my guess should be reduced to the next "20-40" years instead of the next 20-50 years (based on one, fairly relevant, example, if you discount the fact that at the beginning of the 20th century, Japan just got done fighting 2 imperialistic wars, as opposed to at the beginning of the 21st century, when the Japanese military had not had any overseas action since 1945.) and that to look ahead 20-50 years is a simple thing to do, except those at the turn of the 20th Century when guessing the rise of Japan as an Imperial power opposite the US in the Pacific over US's newly acquired territory of the Phillippines.

    Nice.

    Japan already has as good as a hegemony by exterting it influence over the united states. Whether they will be satisifed with that in the future who knows? Right, you do.
    And vice versa, the US exerts quite alot of influence on Japan (it has military bases there). Not to mention China is influencing Japan the same way Japan is influencing the US (by lending it money, lots of money).

    Which country has threatened to go for nuclear weapons if North korea gets her own?
    Which country IS nuclear already? Which country IS the bully of the region already? Which country HAS nuclear missiles aimed at other countries? Which country frequently runs war games dangerously close to the maritime properties of other nations for no reason other than to show off?

    What makes you think I don't know about it (check your assumptions though).
    Just an example, it was spoken in general terms as well. The average Chinese does not know, whether or not they think they are above average. You are obviously not average. But I wasn't referring to you specifically. (Such is the danger of using pronouns, my bad.)

    Wow, talk about poor logic.

    The mainland chinese may not know about brutalities in Singapore can hardly be equated with Japanese not knowing about brutalities they did!
    But the Japanese do know it (well, the more famous Chinese stuff anyways). I, umm... have covered this in another post that you are not replying to. (Ya know, the one where they actually went through and listed the text from the 0.1% used offending textbook?)

    The former is not part of the history of china (so why should they know it?), the latter IS part of the history of the japense so of course they are ignorant if they don't know about it!
    I agree, and they do know it to a fair amount. Do you think the Germans teach about the bad things they did to the Greeks? In detail? Do you think it might have gotten lost in the the suffering of the Jews, the Poles, and the Russians?

    Another analogy, in China, when they taught me about the wars China was involved in the 20th century, they usually fail to mention much about the numerous wars and conflicts that China got into against Vietnam and India. Just because it's a part of Japanese history doesn't mean they need to be thoroughly familiar with the details of it. It's stupid to suggest so.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 08-11-06 at 05:52 PM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  15. #75
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Take responsibility for what you (and your ancestors/government etc, unfortunately) do. Japan should act like a... man, and apologize to China.

    Currently, many Chinese people of my generation absolutely detest anything related to Japan. I don't think that's a very healthy sign for world peace.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinllieon

    Wow, there's a statement from someone who has no idea of the history of WWII. America didn't get caught by surprise strategically, only tactically at Pearl Harbor.
    You surely didn't think I was that ignorant did you?

    I set a nice trap.....

    Started in 1890 by Teddy Roosevelt, revised in 1898, the US navy commissioned a war plan called Plan Orange that basically spelt out how the Navy thinks a pacific war against Japan would play itself out. The plan was further revised and developed in 1930. It basically started off with the premise that Japan will launch a surprise attack on an American base in the Pacific (either Manilla, Midway, or Pearl Harbor, they did not know which) to try and knock out the American Pacific fleet for at least a space of time, which would allow the Imperial Navy to gain vast amount of territorial gains and sue for peace before America gets around to hitting the Japanese back (basically, the Japanese strategy for the Russo-Japanese War, except on a larger scale).
    And yet they were wiped out Pearl habour because of a single tactical error as well as over confidence (also supposedly the brits withheld knowledge of the attack for example to get the americans in the war). If such a small event can completely change the course of events, how can you be sure Japan of the 50 years in the future weren't have the same chance?

    If you looked at it on paper in 1941, someone like you wouldn't have thought Japan had a chance, given the strength of the american fleet. You would say
    who's japan going to attack? USA? They have such a strong fleet and they are ready... And you would tell everyone on internet forums (if they existed) that there is noway Japan is going to attack.

    Yet they did.... And they won!

    Just as you look at the situation today and think there is nothing for Japan to invade because it is obviously boxed in.

    Of course, War Plan Orange did not anticipate that the Japanese attack would be so good as to knock out all battleships in the US Pacific fleet or the general prominence of air-craft carriers. Oh well, they are not you, I suppose. Can't predict the future like you.
    My point exactly, there is no point in saying you can predict long term trends if you can't predict short term events that will totally change the course of history.

    For someone who is very good at predicting the future, you sure don't know about the past very much at all.
    Hmm you must be confused, the only one making claims on the future is you.



    150 years ago, almost all blacks in America were slaves, most of the midwest and great plains states were all Indian terroritory, there was hardly any Americans in California, and the biggest city in America had less than 1 million people living in it.
    And your point? If you are trying to attack the strawman that I'm saying America didn't change at all......

    Japan's national character switched DRAMATICALLY about 150 years ago, from an completely insular nation to a nation yearning to learn from the outside. Then, 100 years ago, it became imperialistic again for the FIRST TIME SINCE 1590s.
    You need to do some work on your math. 150 years ago = roughly 1850.

    Meiji Restoration ring any bells for you?This is the period where they started adopting western technology that eventually lead to their imperialitic expansion starting with the first invasion of China in 1894-95!


    1) Japan will not be a military threat to anybody in that region in the next 20-50 years because of the political situation it has found itself surrounded in and
    2) after that, I haven't the vaguest of clues.
    And you would be arguing in in


    Your counter, however has been:1) At the turn of the 20th Century, nobody predicted Japan would get into a war 41 years later and that
    2) "looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing".

    So basically, you are arguing that my guess should be reduced to the next "20-40" years
    [/quote]

    I think you misunderstand. I have always maintained that the future is difficult to predict even a decade in advance much less 50. In hindsight, historians will always say they knew it was inevitable, or marveled at how the people were caught off guard (if you like to call it a tactical error I will go along with that!) but of course it's always easy to say such things.

    My comment was 20-50 years behing nothing refers to the fact that if there's anything that remains stable it is national character is much more stable over a longer period of time except for certain shocks to the system.


    instead of the next 20-50 years (based on one, fairly relevant, example, if you discount the fact that at the beginning of the 20th century, Japan just got done fighting 2 imperialistic wars, as opposed to at the beginning of the 21st century, when the Japanese military had not had any overseas action since 1945.)
    and that to look ahead 20-50 years is a simple thing to do, except those at the turn of the 20th Century when guessing the rise of Japan as an Imperial power opposite the US in the Pacific over US's newly acquired territory of the Phillippines.
    I'm not quite sure what you are arguing here.

    But let me point out the thing about history, sometimes your predictions are right, sometimes they are wrong. If your predictions were always wrong, then history would be predictable!


    Which country IS nuclear already?
    Which country IS the bully of the region already? Which country HAS nuclear missiles aimed at other countries? Which country frequently runs war games dangerously close to the maritime properties of other nations for no reason other than to show off?
    Taiwan is a rebel province of China!

    But the Japanese do know it (well, the more famous Chinese stuff anyways). I, umm... have covered this in another post that you are not replying to. (Ya know, the one where they actually went through and listed the text from the 0.1% used offending textbook?)
    I'm actually looking for the actual source article I read a while ago. But looking
    at your links I notice it talks only about events around 2001 and is silent about events around the 80s and the 90s. I'm pretty sure Japanese textbooks have gone through quite a few political upheavals, since i remember reading about them in the newspaper in the 80s and 90s.

    I agree, and they do know it to a fair amount.
    This is the topic under discussion of course, how much they actually know.

    But I still don't understand why you felt the need to bring in the point about mainland chinese people not knowing about japense murdering singaporeans..

    How does that contribute to the discussion?


    Do you think the Germans teach about the bad things they did to the Greeks? In detail? Do you think it might have gotten lost in the the suffering of the Jews, the Poles, and the Russians?

    Another analogy, in China, when they taught me about the wars China was involved in the 20th century, they usually fail to mention much about the numerous wars and conflicts that China got into against Vietnam and India. Just because it's a part of Japanese history doesn't mean they need to be thoroughly familiar with the details of it. It's stupid to suggest so.
    You have this bad habit of going back to the flawed argument because everyone else does it, it is right. We disposed of this argument a whle ago didn't we?
    A lot of Christians wear crosses around their necks. You think when Jesus comes back he ever wants to see a ****ing cross? It's like going up to Jackie Onassis wearing a rifle pendant.

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spanner
    You surely didn't think I was that ignorant did you?

    I set a nice trap.....
    Which you yourself stepped in because you set your trap in the wrong places.

    I didn't think you were that ignorant, but... your posts have been that ignorant up until now.

    And yet they were wiped out Pearl habour because of a single tactical error as well as over confidence (also supposedly the brits withheld knowledge of the attack for example to get the americans in the war). If such a small event can completely change the course of events, how can you be sure Japan of the 50 years in the future weren't have the same chance?
    There are theories that some people in the higher ups of the American chain of command did such things (such as FDR moving his fleet from SF to Pearl Harbor against the advice of War Plan Orange), however, not much is speculated with regards to the British.

    The British did know about the sinking of the Luthatania, but that was WWI. I think you might have gotten your World Wars confused.

    Though, seriously, what tactical error did America make? They had no tactics, the point of a "surprise attack" is to catch the enemy with no tactics.

    Besides, you are missing my point. My point is that, contrary to your point, people saw ahead of time that Japan was going to get into a conflict against America at the start of the 20th century. Was Japan a military threat in 1941? Yes. Did people in America see this in 1890? Yes, so much so they drew up a war plan on a hypothetical war against Japan. There is a big gap between seeing a military threat developing and predicting where and when an attack on your military base will be.

    If you looked at it on paper in 1941, someone like you wouldn't have thought Japan had a chance, given the strength of the american fleet. You would say
    who's japan going to attack? USA? They have such a strong fleet and they are ready... And you would tell everyone on internet forums (if they existed) that there is noway Japan is going to attack.
    Umm, no I wouldn't. Japan WAS AT WAR AT THE TIME ALREADY. They were already attacking someone, namely, the Chinese (ya remember? since 1937?). They were under an US embargo that was draining their resources and ability to make war (on the Chinese). They WERE negotiating with the US for a reason you know?

    On December 6th, 1941, the state of the US armed forces was rather weak compared to Japan. The potential of populations and industry was there for everyone to see, but the state of the active armed forces was not the all-conquering force it was just a year later (Pearl Harbor served as a great motivation and propaganda tool).

    Just as you look at the situation today and think there is nothing for Japan to invade because it is obviously boxed in.
    Except, it's not the same.

    In 1941, Japan was knee deep in a 4 year war against China and was feeling the brunt of an US embargo. Slightly different from the situation today isn't it? Last I checked, Japan isn't in a war with anyone, and haven't had one for over 50 years now.

    Oh, and back in 1941, Japan didn't have a smaller armed force than Singapore, like it does today.

    My point exactly, there is no point in saying you can predict long term trends if you can't predict short term events that will totally change the course of history.
    You missed the point, again.

    Hmm you must be confused, the only one making claims on the future is you.
    Yes, and statements like: "if they are doomed to repeat blah blah blah" is not a prediction or anything.

    And your point? If you are trying to attack the strawman that I'm saying America didn't change at all......
    Your quote: "National character of the united states has remained roughly constant for over 150 years , Japan for even longer, looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing."

    I'm attacking your point that America's national character has not changed much over 150 years, that's totally bogus.

    You need to do some work on your math. 150 years ago = roughly 1850.

    Meiji Restoration ring any bells for you?This is the period where they started adopting western technology that eventually lead to their imperialitic expansion starting with the first invasion of China in 1894-95!
    Your quote: "National character of the united states has remained roughly constant for over 150 years, Japan for even longer, looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing."

    Glad you brought up the Meiji Restoration, I'd say a restructuring of their entire beauracracy, the elimination of a class system, an opening up of their ports and borders to foreigners for the first time in over 250 years, and the re-adjustments to ideas and attitudes to the outside world would constitute a change in national character. I think you made my point for me.

    Besides, they DIDN'T invade China in 1894, they invaded Korea! Korea sought Chinese aid and well, we lost.

    I think you misunderstand. I have always maintained that the future is difficult to predict even a decade in advance much less 50. In hindsight, historians will always say they knew it was inevitable, or marveled at how the people were caught off guard (if you like to call it a tactical error I will go along with that!) but of course it's always easy to say such things.

    My comment was 20-50 years behing nothing refers to the fact that if there's anything that remains stable it is national character is much more stable over a longer period of time except for certain shocks to the system.
    Your quote:" National character of the united states has remained roughly constant for over 150 years , Japan for even longer, looking 20-50 years ahead is nothing."

    Yes, certain shocks to the system, like a world war, civil war, or two.

    I'm not quite sure what you are arguing here.
    Well, do tell what's confusing you. because I'm not sure what you are arguing.

    But let me point out the thing about history, sometimes your predictions are right, sometimes they are wrong. If your predictions were always wrong, then history would be predictable!
    Yay for tautology at work. You managed not to say anything at all, good job.

    Of course, you are right, predicting the future is silly. But the problem is that your counter-examples have been very poor indeed. Had you cited say, the time frame between Admiral Perry's visit to Japan to the Russo-Japanese War (1854-1904), you'd have had a much better case.

    Taiwan is a rebel province of China!
    Please please, your colors are showing. What about the Phillippines and the Spratley Islands? Why do you assume I was talking about Taiwan?

    I'm actually looking for the actual source article I read a while ago. But looking
    at your links I notice it talks only about events around 2001 and is silent about events around the 80s and the 90s. I'm pretty sure Japanese textbooks have gone through quite a few political upheavals, since i remember reading about them in the newspaper in the 80s and 90s.
    Yes, this is true because, if you ACTUALLY read the article. It says that the ultra-right wing nut-jobs that wrote the textbook began writing textbooks in the 80s. HOWEVER, the Japanese Board of Education kept on rejecting their textbooks until 1989, which I'd assume means they toned down their language enough by then. So there might have been newspaper articles about books that went before the Japanese board of education in the 80s, but since they were not used in schools, it's a non-issue.

    The 1989 approval of the books might have led to more news, except China kinda had its own little bit of craziness to deal with in 1989 and it probably got lost in the shuffle. And since it was only adapted in the 0.1% of the schools, well, I suppose people thought not much of it.

    The 2001 edition of the books were a marked revision that turned up the language some more, hence causing more uproar, especially when it went before the board and got approved.

    And then there's this 2005 version, which I do not know if it was approved or not. I've been asking and nobody has been able to supply me with an answer.

    But I still don't understand why you felt the need to bring in the point about mainland chinese people not knowing about japense murdering singaporeans..

    How does that contribute to the discussion?
    It contribute to that not everyone is familiar with all of the atrocities that happens to people. We, Chinese, over the course of history, has slaughtered ALOT of people. Hey, we don't learn about them at all. Whadayaknow?

    You have this bad habit of going back to the flawed argument because everyone else does it, it is right. We disposed of this argument a whle ago didn't we?
    Did I say it was right? No. Did I say that it was a politically maintainable/stable situation? Yes. What's right/wrong is a moral issue that I'm not engaging in at this point, because it is pointless.
    Last edited by Moinllieon; 08-12-06 at 06:09 PM.
    春花秋月几时了,
    往事知多少?
    小楼昨夜又东风,
    故国不堪回首明月中.
    雕栏玉砌应犹在,
    只是朱颜改.
    问君能有几多愁,
    恰似一江春水向东流.
    --南唐后主,李煜.

  18. #78
    Gundam-Freedom
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    We should all concentrate our future not our history IMO!

  19. #79
    Senior Member trizz251's Avatar
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    The past is the past. we can forgive but not forget. The japanese todays are not the ones who commited the war crimes on us. But i think the government should apologize for its mistakes in the past, just saying sorry would heal lots of peoples heart and turn hatred possibly into love. why not just say it, it's only a 6 letter word with 2 syllables how hard is it?

  20. #80
    Senior Member MysteriouX's Avatar
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    "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it themselves." However that means taking lessons, not haboring past grudges and blames. We should all look back at history and try to correct our mistakes to ensure that it never happens again, not remember the past and let it overshadow our futures.

    We all wish we could wipe the slate clean and start over, but we can't. But if we still keep scores of what happened in the past and let it influence our future how will we ever evolve past our dark desires. We should endeavour for a better future and world community, not hold grudges and settle scores.

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