Would you hate Gwok Fu so much if she'd hurt someone other than Yeung Gor?

[Ken Cheng]

A useless character like her should've been killed off.

Actually, Gwok Por Lo, her younger brother, was more of a "useless" character who should have been "killed off"...or not created in the first place. You could say that Gwok Fu was irritating, but she played an important role in ROCH as a foil to Yeung Gor. She was a necessary character for the story that Jin Yong wanted to tell. I have nothing against Gwok Por Lo at all, but his function in ROCH was to do...not much. He basically occupied space.

[R!chard]

Let's not go there. In my experience in debates, pulling the "Hitler card" never leads anywhere good...since there are very few people in fiction or reality who can live up to old Adolph's particular brand of malevolence. He's in a class of his own.

Back on topic: my reaction to Gwok Fu, from the very beginning, has always been very different from most other people's. Most people's position on Gwok Fu is, "She's rotten and I hate her." My reaction to her has always been, "She shouldn't have done that, but I can totally understand why she did. There are actually ways to help her, but for some reason, nobody around her is trying them."

In ROCH, it seemed to me that everyone around Gwok Fu reacted to her misdeeds after she'd done them rather than try to guide her *before* she did something stupid. Even her better intended moments had a tendency to go awry as well (the poisoning of Little Dragon Girl, for example). There were opportunities to straighten her out early on, but her elders never took them.

I don't often bring out the Hitler card but as a hardcore YG fan, GF's deeds are indeed comparable to Hitler's IMO.....

And I don't really think you should bring out the 'background' card. If we look at every villain, we can always find excuses to exonerate the person.......

So in the end shouldn't everyone just hold hands and sing a medley?

[Suet Seung]

I don't often bring out the Hitler card but as a hardcore YG fan, GF's deeds are indeed comparable to Hitler's IMO.....

And I don't really think you should bring out the 'background' card. If we look at every villain, we can always find excuses to exonerate the person.......

So in the end shouldn't everyone just hold hands and sing a medley?

I just disagree with you.

Actually, Gwok Por Lo, her younger brother, was more of a "useless" character who should have been "killed off"...or not created in the first place. You could say that Gwok Fu was irritating, but she played an important role in ROCH as a foil to Yeung Gor. She was a necessary character for the story that Jin Yong wanted to tell. I have nothing against Gwok Por Lo at all, but his function in ROCH was to do...not much. He basically occupied space.

Well He isn't actually there just to occupy space, Jin Yong just wanted to give Gwok Jing a male heir and then have the whole family (except Gwok Seung) to die patriotically. I don't know what happened between the end of ROCH and the time the fortress was taken over and the Gwok family died, but I imagine Gwok Por Lo would've fought alongside with his parents and died. At least he didn't live to ruin other people's lives and act all selfish as his oldest sister.

[R!chard]

And oh, why would you hate YG, Ken? You can't really hate him because no one besides XLN (who herself is rather clueless social wise) and OYF (who is as crazy as you can get) cared for him.........so how would he know how to act? At least he a benign heart and ends up a hero through his own efforts. Why can't you sympathize with him as you have with Guo F.U.'s character?

[R!chard]

I just disagree with you.

*Slaps SS around a bit with a large trout* NO ONE has the audacity to disagree with the ultimate XF + YG/XLN lover, nobody!

[Ken Cheng]

I but as a hardcore YG fan

A-ha!

And I don't really think you should bring out the 'background' card. If we look at every villain, we can always find excuses to exonerate the person.......

We can and should, and frankly, that's what's great about Jin Yong's characters, especially the villains. Mo Yung Bok, Siu Yeun San, Teen San Tung Lo, Lee Chou Sui, Au Yeung Fung, Mui Chiu Fung, Yeung Hong, Kau Cheen Yan, Lee Mok Sau, Kau Cheen Chek, Gung Sheun Tze, the Golden Wheel Monk, Sing Kwun...numerous villainous characters have factors in their background that don't justify the things they did, but nevertheless humanize these characters and show them as more than just two-dimensional cartoon villains.

And in the end, that's all I want for Gwok Fu. Nobody has to praise her or call her some kind of misunderstood hero. I'm submitting the idea that she's more complicated than just a two-dimensional spoiled brat. Nobody "just is," and I like getting to the psychological core of certain characters.

So in the end shouldn't everyone just hold hands and sing a medley?

I have a dream epilogue of ROCH where Yeung Gor, Little Dragon Girl, Yeh Lut Chai, and Gwok Fu go drinking at some tavern together and have a few laughs over good and bad old times.

[Suet Seung]

*Slaps SS around a bit with a large trout* NO ONE has the audacity to disagree with the ultimate XF + YG/XLN lover, nobody!

*Dumps tons of gallons of elephant feces on R!chard*

Only you would grab somebody from real life (hitler) and plug it into a wuxia FICTIONAL debate. Not really convincing anyone with that debating strategy.

BTW Hitler was a madman, Gwok Fu was a misguided, spoiled-brat, with no common sense or humbleness.

[R!chard]

We can and should, and frankly, that's what's great about Jin Yong's characters, especially the villains. Mo Yung Bok, Siu Yeun San, Teen San Tung Lo, Lee Chou Sui, Au Yeung Fung, Mui Chiu Fung, Yeung Hong, Kau Cheen Yan, Lee Mok Sau, Kau Cheen Chek, Gung Sheun Tze, the Golden Wheel Monk, Sing Kwun...numerous villainous characters have factors in their background that don't justify the things they did, but nevertheless humanize these characters and show them as more than just two-dimensional cartoon villains.

And in the end, that's all I want for Gwok Fu. Nobody has to praise her or call her some kind of misunderstood hero. I'm submitting the idea that she's more complicated than just a two-dimensional spoiled brat. Nobody "just is," and I like getting to the psychological core of certain characters.

Haha, knew you would go there! Blah, at least don' hate on YG anymore

[Ken Cheng]

And oh, why would you hate YG, Ken? You can't really hate him because no one besides XLN (who herself is rather clueless social wise) and OYF (who is as crazy as you can get) cared for him.........so how would he know how to act? At least he a benign heart and ends up a hero through his own efforts. Why can't you sympathize with him as you have with Guo F.U.'s character?

You'd be surprised. Somewhere buried in the depths of the forum there's a thread about a year old listing some of the reasons I *like* Yeung Gor. Yes, that's right...*like*.

I don't like Yeung Gor and he doesn't need my sympathy. He's got a large and loyal fan club. Gwok Fu, on the other hand, seems to be a character who suffers from an overabundance of hate, and needs an advocate for her side of the story. It's an underdog thing, maybe. In some ways, Gwok Fu was the real underdog of ROCH.

[R!chard]

*Dumps tons of gallons of elephant feces on R!chard*

Only you would grab somebody from real life (hitler) and plug it into a wuxia FICTIONAL debate. Not really convincing anyone with that debating strategy.

BTW Hitler was a madman, Gwok Fu was a misguided, spoiled-brat, with no common sense or humbleness.

Hitler was an arrogant genius who happened to lack common sense and was awfully misguided.



*reflects the feces back with XL28Z*

[R!chard]

You'd be surprised. Somewhere buried in the depths of the forum there's a thread about a year old listing some of the reasons I *like* Yeung Gor. Yes, that's right...*like*.

I don't like Yeung Gor and he doesn't need my sympathy. He's got a large and loyal fan club. Gwok Fu, on the other hand, seems to be a character who suffers from an overabundance of hate, and needs an advocate for her side of the story. It's an underdog thing, maybe. In some ways, Gwok Fu was the real underdog of ROCH.

Who knew the fascist leader of the anti-YG cult was a hypocrite?! Brothers, lets cut off his arm to honor comrade Yang!

[Ken Cheng]

Hitler was an arrogant genius who happened to lack common sense and was awfully misguided.



*reflects the feces back with XL28Z*

Let's get this back to Gwok Fu and away from Hitler.

[R!chard]

Let's get this back to Gwok Fu and away from Hitler.

Alright. GF is a despicable character in ROCH. I hate her more than the Tellytubbies. Oh wait, we are back on square 1.....

[Ken Cheng]

Who knew the fascist leader of the anti-YG cult was a hypocrite?! Brothers, lets cut off his arm to honor comrade Yang!

I still generally don't like Yeung Gor, but he has his moments and I once listed them out.

I've located it for your viewing pleasure.

[Suet Seung]

I still generally don't like Yeung Gor, but he has his moments and I once listed them out.

I've located it for your viewing pleasure.

Ken, conserve your energy for others with actual logic and reason.

[R!chard]

I still generally don't like Yeung Gor, but he has his moments and I once listed them out.

I've located it for your viewing pleasure.

LOL, may I have the honor to challenge you to name 10 negative points of YG?

[Ken Cheng]

Ken, conserve your energy for others with actual logic and reason.

Rich is OK by me. A little misguided on the Yeung Gor thing, but a good fellow nonetheless.

Let's save Hitler for the Open Debate Forum, however. Not many uses for Hitler on a Wuxia Forum unless you want to compare him to Genghis Khan or Chu Yeun Cheung.

[Ken Cheng]

LOL, may I have the honor to challenge you to name 10 negative points of YG?

That would be EASY. How would I be able to stop at just ten?

[R!chard]

That would be EASY. How would I be able to stop at just ten?

Haha, moping around Gugu doesn't count (that should eliminate 9 of them)...heck, even I mope around my gugu all the time too....oops, too much info?

[Da Bao]

I never really "hated" Guo Fu, it's more like I just GREATLY disliked her. I mean... She cut off Yang Guo's arm (well... She was incited), and a bunch of other stuff. But in the end I forgive her because she showed a better side of herself.