Would you hate Gwok Fu so much if she'd hurt someone other than Yeung Gor?

[Ken Cheng]

This is a Phase 2 companion thread/poll to the earlier "Would You Like Yeung Gor If He Were Ugly" thread/poll.

Gwok Fu is one of the most hated characters in the Jin Yong canon. Looking at her misdeeds, however, she is not (by far) the worse human being that Jin Yong ever wrote about. Certainly, I don't see her as being worse than Ah Chi, Madame Ma, Kau Cheen Chek, Lee Mok Sau, Mit Jeut See Tai, or late-HSDS Chow Chi Yerk (and that's just among the women).

So is it because Yeung Gor (and Little Dragon Girl) were the main victims of Gwok Fu's misdeeds that she is so hated? What if she had done the same things to somebody else...say, Fok Do or Gung Sheun Tze? Would she be a hero then?

[Suet Seung]

To me, it has always been Gwok Fu's character that makes her dislikeable, not the victims of her thoughtless acts of spoiled-brat-syndrome.

[Ken Cheng]

To me, it has always been Gwok Fu's character that makes her dislikeable, not the victims of her thoughtless acts of spoiled-brat-syndrome.

Gwok Fu was no saint, but she attracts more criticism and dislike than some of those other characters I listed...most of whom are more patently evil and did much worse things. I often wonder why Gwok Fu gets criticized more heavily than those more truly evil characters.

[Suet Seung]

Perhaps because Gwok Fu is the daughter of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung, that we expect more of Gwok Fu?

Ah Chi - She was raised by an evil man like Old Ding, who taught her to sadistic and evil.

Gwok Fu - Her parents were Gwok Jing and Wong Yung, what's her excuse for being so thoughtless and unconsiderate and bratty? Oh her parents spoiled her? She's just not worthy of such famous parents.

Madame Ma - We're made to hate her for ruining Xiao Feng's life, but perhaps because Ah Chi caused Madame Ma's death that we actually like Ah Chi better? Well, for some, we just love the scene between Madame Ma and Ah Chi.

Kau Cheen Chek - That woman has issues with bad husband and well I can't say much because I don't know if she was warp before she got married or after.

Lee Mok Sau - She actually has redeeming factors and she's not completely evil.

Mit Jeut See Tai - She's just blood thirsty on destorying all the evils, no matter if they have a good conscience, as long as they're following the unorthadox cult, they're enemy. Well, I don't hate her, she's just an old lady with a very small perception.

Chow Chi Yerk - Things changed her. She's got a purpose for her actions.


Gwok Fu - She's just useless in everything she does or tries to do. For what reason she got a husband like Yelut Qi, we don't know, maybe he's just power hungry for leader of the Beggar association and the title as Gwok Jing's son-in-law or just totally blind by her "simple" beauty.

Another thing, Gwok Fu is just a lazy, arrogrant, low IQ, self-loving idiot. She's no good in the swordfighting skills, no good in being friendly, no good in saving the weak and actually being humble about it, Gwok Jing and Wong Yung should just switch her at birth or as a child and get a better daughter. Thank Goodness for Gwok Seung.

[R!chard]

Well said, Suet Seung......

I have never hate anyone, in real life or in fictions as much as Guo F.U.

Just die ***** -.-

[Ken Cheng]

I've always felt sorry for Gwok Fu. Due to her parentage, it seemed that she *did* have the world's high expectations thrust upon her, but she was born without the qualities to live up to them. This produced insecurity and frustration, which manifested themselves in the anti-social behaviors that we saw her exhibit. Fundamentally, however, I cannot detect actual evil in her.

[R!chard]

I've always felt sorry for Gwok Fu. Due to her parentage, it seemed that she *did* have the world's high expectations thrust upon her, but she was born without the qualities to live up to them. This produced insecurity and frustration, which manifested themselves in the anti-social behaviors that we saw her exhibit. Fundamentally, however, I cannot detect actual evil in her.

Look at her little sister; she is born with those qualities, or rather, lack of them. There are no excuses.

A bull's feces will always be one, even if you put it in the middle of a flower bed...

Bet Ah Zhi and YTZ switched babies with the Guo family while they wasn't looking.....

[Suet Seung]

I don't hate Gwok Fu. Hate is too strong of a word to use on someone not worthy. Maybe, Gwok Fu just never really applied herself and prove her worthy of such parents. She never once thought of studying harder or following under her parents' footsteps -being a heroine who helps and protect the weak and being humble. She seriously needed a slice of humble pie. I would think she might save people --just so she could have people praise her and she'd continue to rub that fact that she save them, just in order to get what she wants.

When people critisize her, she'd go crying to her parents, she doesn't learn from her mistakes. And even at the end of ROCH, I think she was even a little reluctant to express gratitude towards Yeung Gor for helping her husband.

Gwok Fu has all the sources to become a great heroine like her mother and sister, but she just did not overcome her laziness and apply herself. She only knew how to whine, conceited, and stand behind her parents' fame. She never really worked for what she got.

[Ken Cheng]

Look at her little sister; she is born with those qualities, or rather, lack of them. There are no excuses.

Gwok Seung *was* born with the right qualities. She had her mother's cleverness (or at least some part of it), her father's good character, and probably even a modicum of martial arts talent (she eventually founded the Ngor Mei Sect). Gwok Fu did not have these qualities. Comparing the two sisters is fairly pointless because Gwok Seung did inherit their parents' positive traits while Gwok Fu did not.

[tweety365]

I agree with you, Ken. GF may be ignorant, childish, gullible, spoiled, ungrateful, weak, whiny and along with many other faults, but she is not inherently evil. I don't "hate" her, but more along the line of extremely, extremely disliking the girl. Had wanted something bad to happen to her... alas . If she had felt remorse earlier on or become more humble, I might have given her some slack. The fact that her victims were YG and XLN is not an issue with me. It's her character that is distasteful.

Other evil characters you mentioned, well... they are evil. One is expected to hate them. Although I do sympathize with Ah Zhi due to her upbringing. But GF is supposedly not "evil" and she never received any repercussions for all the bad things she did. Instead, she lives a very comfortable life with famous respectable heroes as her parents and a husband like YLQ (who I think must be blind). The injustice of the situation angers me

There is no option for extremely disliking GF so I voted that I would still hate her if YG & XLN were not the victims.

[R!chard]

Gwok Seung *was* born with the right qualities. She had her mother's cleverness (or at least some part of it), her father's good character, and probably even a modicum of martial arts talent (she eventually founded the Ngor Mei Sect). Gwok Fu did not have these qualities. Comparing the two sisters is fairly pointless because Gwok Seung did inherit their parents' positive traits while Gwok Fu did not.

That doesn't really cut it. Does it mean everyone born in a poor family deserve to steal from the rich? Ok, so GF was dropped on the head when she was born but that doesn't give her the right to be a real pain in the butt.....

[strife_au]

If she'd actually did somethings to a villain or something, it'd be pretty surprising and commendable... but shes just not good enough or smart enough, so she lives a like a queen of her imaginary kingdom and thinks everything revolves around her .

[Ken Cheng]

That doesn't really cut it. Does it mean everyone born in a poor family deserve to steal from the rich? Ok, so GF was dropped on the head when she was born but that doesn't give her the right to be a real pain in the butt.....

Mind you, I'm not saying that we should *praise* Gwok Fu for the things she did, but I feel that her behavior stems from something more complicated than "she's just a naturally bad person with no redeeming qualities." Although simple-minded, this character is more psychologically complex than many people realize. I think she even came right out and admitted once (at least to herself) that she had some very deep insecurities.

[Suet Seung]

Gwok Seung *was* born with the right qualities. She had her mother's cleverness (or at least some part of it), her father's good character, and probably even a modicum of martial arts talent (she eventually founded the Ngor Mei Sect). Gwok Fu did not have these qualities. Comparing the two sisters is fairly pointless because Gwok Seung did inherit their parents' positive traits while Gwok Fu did not.

Aiyah...

Even Dumb Girl (WYS's student's daughter) who we all know was mentally handicap was able to learn at least three stances and fight off/surprise Lee Mok Sau . She can even determine friend or foe. While Gwok Fu injures and poisons her rescuer. Again, Dumb Girl is at a disadvantage and she still comes out more likeable and smelling nicer than Gwok Fu who is not mentally handicapped, yet is too conceited to really genuinely help others. I don't recall Gwok Fu knowing how to say "Thank You" either, usually its WY telling her to say it. She just wouldn't say it without some reluctance.

Dumb Girl could probably beat Gwok Fu with her limited fighting skills.

[Ken Cheng]

Aiyah...

Even Dumb Girl (WYS's student's daughter) who we all know was mentally handicap was able to learn at least three stances and fight off/surprise Lee Mok Sau . She can even determine friend or foe. While Gwok Fu injures and poisons her rescuer. Again, Dumb Girl is at a disadvantage and she still comes out more likeable and smelling nicer than Gwok Fu who is not mentally handicapped, yet is too conceited to really genuinely help others. I don't recall Gwok Fu knowing how to say "Thank You" either, usually its WY telling her to say it. She just wouldn't say it without some reluctance.

Dumb Girl could probably beat Gwok Fu with her limited fighting skills.

Probably true, but not being a talented martial artist is a strange reason to dislike a person.

[R!chard]

Mind you, I'm not saying that we should *praise* Gwok Fu for the things she did, but I feel that her behavior stems from something more complicated than "she's just a naturally bad person with no redeeming qualities." Although simple-minded, this character is more psychologically complex than many people realize. I think she even came right out and admitted once (at least to herself) that she had some very deep insecurities.

Hitler had his reasons for what he did and some of them are rather compelling but he will always be regarded as one of the most despicable in history due to his deeds. Some actions are forgiveable, some are not, no matter hw unintentional they were. And not showing remorse repeatedly won't win her any sympathy any time soon either.....

She may not be the worst person in JY's universe but she can still be considered to be malignant at heart. She never remembers what other people have done for her, she is selfish, she is parochial, she is spoiled and she is "insert more annoying qualities from the endless list please". I can recall many untalented people born in a well to do family and doesn't end up like her. Besides, even if she does have redeemable qualities, she won't be smart and humble enough to realize them....

PS: So I heard she died sometime after ROCH, thank goodness. I can finally say "FINALLY!".

[Suet Seung]

Probably true, but not being a talented martial artist is a strange reason to dislike a person.

I told you Ken, Gwok Fu has all the sources (her parents and her grandfather) to actually be someone, but she never applied herself. She might not have the skills, but with persistance and determination anyone could rise up and be someone.

I just think it's a waste to be in the position of having famous heroic parents and a Great as a grandfather and not use it to do something useful. Instead she just walked around like a little princess and acting like people should praise her because of her family's reputation.

A useless character like her should've been killed off.

[R!chard]

A useless character like her should've been killed off.

Or at least let GJ cut off her arm.....

I guess thats the reason why I never really liked HR.....Oh and her's persistent meddling in YG and XLN's personal affairs....

[strife_au]

Or at least let GJ cut off her arm.....

I guess thats the reason why I never really liked HR.....Oh and her's persistent meddling in YG and XLN's personal affairs....

Wouldn't of solved anything IMHO but instead completely destroying her, leading to her suicide or something

[Ken Cheng]

Hitler had his reasons for what he did and some of them are rather compelling but he will always be regarded as one of the most despicable in history due to his deeds.

Let's not go there. In my experience in debates, pulling the "Hitler card" never leads anywhere good...since there are very few people in fiction or reality who can live up to old Adolph's particular brand of malevolence. He's in a class of his own.

Back on topic: my reaction to Gwok Fu, from the very beginning, has always been very different from most other people's. Most people's position on Gwok Fu is, "She's rotten and I hate her." My reaction to her has always been, "She shouldn't have done that, but I can totally understand why she did. There are actually ways to help her, but for some reason, nobody around her is trying them."

In ROCH, it seemed to me that everyone around Gwok Fu reacted to her misdeeds after she'd done them rather than try to guide her *before* she did something stupid. Even her better intended moments had a tendency to go awry as well (the poisoning of Little Dragon Girl, for example). There were opportunities to straighten her out early on, but her elders never took them.