View Poll Results: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji - Which team wins?

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  • Guo Jing & Yang Guo

    53 56.99%
  • Zhang Sanfeng & Zhang Wuji

    40 43.01%
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Thread: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji

  1. #61
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    I believe IcyFox has once suggested that to get to the peak of internal, there is 3 ways to do it.

    1. Mastery and fusing both 9 Yin and 9 Yang
    2. Mastery of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill Level 13
    3. Fully Mastery of the Damo Yi Jin Jing

    And as for the purity, I pretty much agree with Chronoreverse's explanation. His internal was not only inferior in terms of purity to Z3F but also the 3 Divine Du Monks.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    I believe IcyFox has once suggested that to get to the peak of internal, there is 3 ways to do it.

    1. Mastery and fusing both 9 Yin and 9 Yang
    2. Mastery of Dragon Elephant Prana Skill Level 13
    3. Fully Mastery of the Damo Yi Jin Jing
    I agree with both 1 and 3 but absolutely disagree with 2. Anything related to JLFW is crap. JLFW can learn level 200, and he'll still get his butt handed to him by someone of supposedly lesser powers.

  3. #63
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    well, you can't really say that either.
    I estimate JLFW increased his internal by 1.5X when he went from Level 9 to Level 10 because JY said JLFW increased his internal by mutiple times. I once suggested 2X, but I ended up being pwned by logic. So I suggested 1.5X the second time, and it made more sense. But seeing this, it is highly likely that Level 13 trully is incredible.

    And JLFW also has weaker external arts than the Greats. Though not weak, but compared to the Greats, his arts are weaker.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  4. #64
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Too many what if's in those three. Furthermore, YJJ is being over-ranked imo. There really should not be any reason either 9 Yang proper or 9 Yin proper isn't a match for YJJ. YJJ is the ultimate buddhist internal (But self gimped because if you want to get powerful at it, you have to not want to study it. To achieve the utmost, you wouldn't even start or look at it and thus it's not achievable and meaningless).

    And GWM's internal is also impossible to reach level 13 unless you happen to be immortal. But if you were immortal then 9 Yin's or even QZ's unlimited progress means you'll eventually surpass that as well. Hence meaningless.


    Haha, come now Whsie, it's possible that GLGS gained 2x, it just means everyone else gained big too XD
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-06-06 at 11:23 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I thought I just explained it. Purity is a measure of refinement which is the result of years of practice. With great purity, your utilization efficiency is higher and you are able to send, retract, redirect and send again energy without having to be concerned about energy loss and self-injury.


    Well, ZWJ's 9 Yang is unusual though. It wasn't really super hot until that bag incident =/

    As for 9 Yin, I think JY just made one of those inconsistencies for the sake of story. It's rather annoying since 9 Yin wasn't like that and he just goes and changes that. That said, ZZR was not practicing 9 Yin proper but only the shortcut version. The internal energy script in that version is unlikely to be the full power 9 Yin (which takes years of practice).


    Furthermore, 9 Yin proper was completely orthodox taoist. By definition it must be tend towards balance.

    9 Yang is also taoist, but unlike 9 Yin, it was written on the spur without being proofread by one person using his own personal knowledge and 9 Yin as a basis.

    9 Yin was the result of the compilation and painstaking lifetime study of taoist scriptures and theories.

    Thanks for the explanation about purity, I think I just missed it the 1st time you mentioned it. Even before the bag, 9yan was hot, which was why Z3f said it was needed to heal the injury that ZWJ had. ZWJ just reached a new level after the bag incident.

    I agree with what you said about JY. I don't think that JY meant for 9yin to be a cold based form of internal power at first but after he got the idea of having a 9yan as well, he decided to make 9yin cold and 9yan hot. Keep in mind that the stories were originally released in newspapers, and it's thus conceivable that even JY himself didn't know that there was going to be a 9yan until the end of YG's story. Therefore, even in Return of Condor Heroes, there was no mention of how cold 9yin was.

  6. #66
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I still subscribe to the theory that ZZR's 9 Yin was cold because of the shortcut version. Viciousness is a quicker boost that will allow the recipient of the Heaven Sword and Dragon-slaying Saber's legacies to quickly become stronger. Then they could focus on mastering the true balanced theories to achieve true mastery. Otherwise you'd have the pre-LOCH situation where the 9 Yin keeps getting snatched away.

    I've already explained my basis for this earlier (the internal energy of Yideng in particular was utterly not yin).

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Thanks for the explanation about purity, I think I just missed it the 1st time you mentioned it. Even before the bag, 9yan was hot, which was why Z3f said it was needed to heal the injury that ZWJ had. ZWJ just reached a new level after the bag incident.
    Actually.... now that I think of it, is it possible that the yin chi forced the ZWJ to be more yang?

    Think about it, the Qian Kwun Bag was described as like 10 first tier fighters pushing ZWJ's accupoints. And the "thing" that is pushing is the Yin based finger energy of Cheng Kwun. Everytime, ZWJ has to use 9 Yang's yangness to repel the yin based chi back. So is it possible that ZWJ got too yang based because the yin based chi forced the yangness out?

    But if this is not the case, then I'll still except that 9 Yang could possibly be more yang.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  8. #68
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Keep in mind, even the partial portions of 9 Yang seem to be warm in nature. Every indication shows that 9 Yang ended up on the yang side of the scale. Meanwhile almost every indication shows 9 Yin to be balanced.

    Hence the irony with the 3rd edition about 9 Yang being to designed to be balanced =/

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I still subscribe to the theory that ZZR's 9 Yin was cold because of the shortcut version. Viciousness is a quicker boost that will allow the recipient of the Heaven Sword and Dragon-slaying Saber's legacies to quickly become stronger. Then they could focus on mastering the true balanced theories to achieve true mastery. Otherwise you'd have the pre-LOCH situation where the 9 Yin keeps getting snatched away.

    I've already explained my basis for this earlier (the internal energy of Yideng in particular was utterly not yin).
    Your explanation is great but it's just that JY couldn't make retroactive changes to his story. In Havely Sabre, ZWJ had problems against people with cold based energy several times because his 9yan was heat based. It was said several times that ZWJ would have handled his situations much better if he had someone helping him who also had cold based powers or ZWJ himself had cold based powers. Although some of those observations were made on the part of other characters and not JY himself, it seems like that's what JY himself was trying to say. I think that ZZR's 9yin energy would have continued to be cold no matter how much she progressed. For example, YJJ was also described to be super cold and it's not a quick unorthodox method.

  10. #70
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    Re: this is just me, but to compare, I think we have to restrict ourselves to what we know about the four characters as of the end of their respective stories. Cheung Mo Gei had the 9 Yum Jen Ging in his possession at the end of HSDS. Could he have mastered it as well and become near Janitor Monk level? Possibly. Did he? Who knows?

    Similarly, maybe Cheung 3 Fung lived another fifty years after HSDS and created some uber martial arts the like of which had never been seen, far surpassing the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and 9 Yum Jen Ging. Did he? We can't possibly know.

    Perhaps Gwok Jing refined the Hong Lung 18 Palms further into the Celestial Hong Lung Single Palm, and Yeung Gor took Sad Palms to Level 14, which surpassed the Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung Level 14...OK, I'll stop now. I think I've made my point.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Keep in mind, even the partial portions of 9 Yang seem to be warm in nature. Every indication shows that 9 Yang ended up on the yang side of the scale. Meanwhile almost every indication shows 9 Yin to be balanced.

    Hence the irony with the 3rd edition about 9 Yang being to designed to be balanced =/
    The indications you mentioned are before 9yang was introduced into the Condor trilogy. In Heavenly Sabre, 9yin's internal energy was never described as being balanced. Like I said, JY just couldn't change what he said before, since there were so many parts where he described 9yin's internal power as being balanced like you mentioned. The best JY could do was just to clear up in Heavenly Sabre that 9yin is cold while 9yan is hot.

  12. #72
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    Your explanation is great but it's just that JY couldn't make retroactive changes to his story
    Except he has. LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS are in their 3rd editions, each subtly different from the previous editions.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Re: this is just me, but to compare, I think we have to restrict ourselves to what we know about the four characters as of the end of their respective stories. Cheung Mo Gei had the 9 Yum Jen Ging in his possession at the end of HSDS. Could he have mastered it as well and become near Janitor Monk level? Possibly. Did he? Who knows?

    Similarly, maybe Cheung 3 Fung lived another fifty years after HSDS and created some uber martial arts the like of which had never been seen, far surpassing the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and 9 Yum Jen Ging. Did he? We can't possibly know.

    Perhaps Gwok Jing refined the Hong Lung 18 Palms further into the Celestial Hong Lung Single Palm, and Yeung Gor took Sad Palms to Level 14, which surpassed the Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung Level 14...OK, I'll stop now. I think I've made my point.

    I would think that the principles of Tai Chi does already surpass 9yin and 9yan on some levels since JY said that Z3F is the greatest martial artist in his books. Since Z3f is the greatest daoist martial artist ever, it makes sense that Tai Chi is much more balanced and more powerful than the extremely polar yin/yang martial arts. As powerful as ZWJ was, it was said that he still is far from perfecting Tai Chi, which shows how deep Tai Chi was.

  14. #74
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    For example, YJJ was also described to be super cold and it's not a quick unorthodox method.
    Eh no.

    YTZ's case was not an example of YJJ. It was an example of extreme ice poison merging with extreme orthodox YJJ in a freak accident that instantly put YTZ's internal energy to a super high level (incidentally, this kind of thing seems to happen in DGSD a lot). Furthermore, in the 3rd edition, this was revised into Yoga instead of YJJ.


    JY had two editions to fix 9 Yin proper to be cold if he wanted to but hasn't. Hence why I still think it's because of the shortcut version.


    I would think that the principles of Tai Chi does already surpass 9yin and 9yan on some levels since JY said that Z3F is the greatest martial artist in his books. Since Z3f is the greatest daoist martial artist ever, it makes sense that Tai Chi is much more balanced and more powerful than the extremely polar yin/yang martial arts. As powerful as ZWJ was, it was said that he still is far from perfecting Tai Chi, which shows how deep Tai Chi was.
    Ultimately Tai Chi was a technique. The theories could easily be superior to 9 Yin's and is likely to be superior to 9 Yang's, but it won't help in terms of internal energy development (in the form JY gave it).

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Except he has. LOCH, ROCH, and HSDS are in their 3rd editions, each subtly different from the previous editions.
    Subtle changes are fine, but 9yin was described so many times before 9yan was introduced in the story that it would take JY a long time to say specifically that 9yin was a cold-based form of internal energy. Since both 9yin and 9yan had existed together in the story, it was always mentioned that 9yin is cold and 9yan is hot. There's no reason for JY to do so if 9yin is still meant to incorporate both hot and cold after 9yan was introduced.

  16. #76
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Well, we should apply Occam's Razor then.


    People who practiced 9 Yin proper ended up with balanced energy. The one who practice 9 Yin shortcut ended up with yin energy. Therefore, 9 Yin proper is balanced while 9 Yin shortcut is yin.

    Without further evidence, this is the simplest solution and should be taken as such.




    Incidentally, some of the changes aren't so subtle. Like YJJ turning into Yoga or the creation of the incident where WCY loses a drinking contest and lets a random taoist read 9 Yin who then miraculously creates 9 Yang =/
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-06-06 at 11:49 PM.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Ultimately Tai Chi was a technique. The theories could easily be superior to 9 Yin's and is likely to be superior to 9 Yang's, but it won't help in terms of internal energy development (in the form JY gave it).
    The strange thing is, Taichi is suppose to have an internal cultivation....
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  18. #78
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    But in HSDS, there was no indication of such. And even in XAJD, it was only mentioned as Tai Chi Sword/(fist?).

    One would've thought it'd have internal energy cultivation since it was supposed to complete Wudang 9 Yang. Maybe it's just a plothole XD

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Eh no.

    YTZ's case was not an example of YJJ. It was an example of extreme ice poison merging with extreme orthodox YJJ in a freak accident that instantly put YTZ's internal energy to a super high level (incidentally, this kind of thing seems to happen in DGSD a lot). Furthermore, in the 3rd edition, this was revised into Yoga instead of YJJ.


    JY had two editions to fix 9 Yin proper to be cold if he wanted to but hasn't. Hence why I still think it's because of the shortcut version.


    Ultimately Tai Chi was a technique. The theories could easily be superior to 9 Yin's and is likely to be superior to 9 Yang's, but it won't help in terms of internal energy development (in the form JY gave it).
    Thanks for the clearup about YTZ. I always thought it was odd that a shaolin based form of internal energy would be so cold.

    I think it's pretty clear that after 9yan was introduced, that JY meant for 9yin to be cold and 9yan to be hot. Before JY had created 9yan, I think he had meant for 9yin to be balanced like you mentioned. I guess we'll just have to disagree with regards to whether 9yin is cold or not.

    It's kinda like Star Wars. After the prequels, one's force potential is supposedly based on midi-chlorian levels but the original trilogy never talked about midichlorians and even the newly revised DVDs of the original trilogy make no mention of midi-chlorian levels. However, even though the original trilogy doesn't talk about midi-chlorians , it's accepted that Lucas meant for force potential to be related to midichlorian levels.

  20. #80
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The difference between this and your example is that the original trilogy doesn't preclude the possiblity of midichlorians. The midichlorians allows one to touch the Force, but that doesn't mean the Force isn't an energy field that binds us.

    In this case, 9 Yin can either be one or the other but not both at the same time. That's why it makes more sense to take it that the shortcut version is the reason for it.


    Of course, if JY comes out and says "9 Yin is yin, deal with it," it'd be a different story, but in the context of the stories, it's the best way to keep the Condor Trilogy internally consistent. In fact, the shortcut 9 Yin thing was added in the later edition. Because of that I feel it's more likely to be the case.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-06-06 at 11:56 PM.

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