View Poll Results: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji - Which team wins?

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  • Guo Jing & Yang Guo

    53 56.99%
  • Zhang Sanfeng & Zhang Wuji

    40 43.01%
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Thread: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    well, you can't really say that either.
    I estimate JLFW increased his internal by 1.5X when he went from Level 9 to Level 10 because JY said JLFW increased his internal by mutiple times. I once suggested 2X, but I ended up being pwned by logic. So I suggested 1.5X the second time, and it made more sense. But seeing this, it is highly likely that Level 13 trully is incredible.

    And JLFW also has weaker external arts than the Greats. Though not weak, but compared to the Greats, his arts are weaker.
    The way that JLFW was written by JY, no matter how much powerful he's described to have become, you just know that he was still not just going to lose but lose very badly. Therefore, I think any martial arts related to JLFW is crap.

  2. #82
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Well, that martial art wasn't invented by him so it doesn't follow that path. Furthermore, even with such a weakness, ZBT could not defeat GWm even as GWM could not defeat ZBT. That's not bad for someone with such a bad fighting spirit.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    The difference between this and your example is that the original trilogy doesn't preclude the possiblity of midichlorians.

    In this case, 9 Yin can either be one or the other but not both as the same time. That's why it makes more sense to take it that the shortcut version is the reason for it.


    Of course, if JY comes out and says "9 Yin is yin, deal with it," it'd be a different story, but in the context of the stories, it's the best way to keep the Condor Trilogy internall consistent.
    Your logic makes sense but I'm just saying it's not what JY was trying to do based on how 9yin was described after he had introdued 9yan into his world. JY"s earlier descriptions actually precluded the fact that 9yin's internal energy would be cold-based, the fact that it was so drastically changed in the later story showed that 9yin's internal energy had been changed to become cold instead of balanced. You kept mentioning that a shortcut version of 9yin is cold based but in Heavenly Sabre, 9yin is just described as being cold regardless of shortcut or not. 9yan was portrayed to be the epitome of hot while 9yin was portrayed to be the epitome of cold. I see no evidence after 9yan was introduced that either form of internal energy was to be balanced. and not polar opposites

  4. #84
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Yes, but JY also added the part about ZZR learning the shortcut version. Doesn't that neatly resolve the whole problem?

    Instead of having the nagging problem of why 9 Yin's nature changed, JY nicely wrapped it up by saying that ZZR learnt 9 Yin Express. Since no one in HSDS actually went and learned 9 Yin proper, we don't know if it actually will be yin.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-07-06 at 12:03 AM.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Well, that martial art wasn't invented by him so it doesn't follow that path. Furthermore, even with such a weakness, ZBT could not defeat GWm even as GWM could not defeat ZBT. That's not bad for someone with such a bad fighting spirit.
    If that scene had ended right there, JLFW wouldn't have looked that bad, but at the conclusion of that scene, JLFW once again looked like a fool. JY somehow always ends up making JLFW look bad regardless of how powerful he described JLFW's powers to be which is why I think that JLFW is by far the worst main antagoinst of any of his stories.

  6. #86
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I don't disagree about GWM looking the fool. I'm just saying that doesn't make his martial art bad. It would be like saying XL18P is not as good as Hamo Gung because young GJ couldn't beat OYF

  7. #87
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    My sticking point is only that I don't much like to speculate how far characters' martial arts expand or increase years after their recorded adventures end, especially if they practice high-end martial arts known for potentially unlimited growth. It leads to a great deal of speculation for which there is little or no direct evidence and quickly gets out of hand, which only calls into question the validity of comparisons.

  8. #88
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I agree, if we extrapolate, then it gets ridiculous as one of your earlier posts demonstrates.

    ZOMG GJ has QZ internal, if he lived to 1000 years he'd be more powerful than the Jade Emporer LOLZ. Fine and it may even be, but ultimately meaningless to say.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Yes, but JY also added the part about ZZR learning the shortcut version. Doesn't that neatly resolve the whole problem?

    Instead of having the nagging problem of why 9 Yin's nature changed, JY nicely wrapped it up by saying that ZZR learnt 9 Yin Express.
    Like I said, your logic makes sense but it doesn't seem to be what JY was doing. JY just said that ZZR's moves appeared to be evil because she hadn't learned the intricacies of 9yin just like Miu Qiu Fong before. I'm pretty sure about what I'm saying because I've just read heavenly sabre recently again and in every instance 9yin is described to be cold while 9yan is describe to be hot. It makes no sense based on the earlier 2 stories but that's what JY is saying now. Also, in terms of story, it makes a lot sense to have one martials art to be the epitome of heat based while the other to be the epitome of cold based. If 9yin is the only one that existed,like in the earlier 2 stories, it would make sense for it to be balanced. Now that there are both 9yin and 9yan, it would seem kinda silly to have one be both hot/cold while the other one be simply hot.

  10. #90
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Remember what I said about the "9" in the name? Jin Yong originally thought it meant "yang". Hence Yang-Yin. That's balanced. It's his original idea anyways. Plus the origin of 9 Yin is still a compilation of all available Taoist scriptures. Those always teach to go for the balance.

    This did change of course, but in HSDS we only see the shortcut 9 Yin. Even though JY wrote this, his intention is trumped by actual events in his story.


    It's like GLGS. JY probably meant for him to be a powerful bad guy. But his intention does not coincide with the actual events. Actual events show GLGS to be rather pathetic. Hence we believe that GLGS was rather pathetic.


    Novel evidence shows 9 Yin proper to be balanced. Novel evidence shows that 9 Yin shortcut is yin. We can draw our conclusions from that.

  11. #91
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I agree, if we extrapolate, then it gets ridiculous as one of your earlier posts demonstrates.
    Which one, CR?

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    My sticking point is only that I don't much like to speculate how far characters' martial arts expand or increase years after their recorded adventures end, especially if they practice high-end martial arts known for potentially unlimited growth. It leads to a great deal of speculation for which there is little or no direct evidence and quickly gets out of hand, which only calls into question the validity of comparisons.
    It would be much easier to compare the characters based on their power levels in the books but it's also interesting to speculate on how powerful someone would be if he had both 9yin and 9yan. I think that JY himself knew that someone like that would be way too powerful which is why he waited till the end for ZWJ to end up also with 9yin. However, since ZWJ did end up with the complete 9yin manuscript, I don't think that it''ll be pure speculation on our parts to think that he would become much powerful since ZWJ's posession of 9yin was a decision on the part of the author. JY also did mention that someone who can blend both coldness and heat would be super powerful so we can kinda guess on how powerful a blend of 9yin/9yan would be.

  13. #93
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    It would be much easier to compare the characters based on their power levels in the books but it's also interesting to speculate on how powerful someone would be if he had both 9yin and 9yan.
    It would be interesting, but without well-defined parameters, it wouldn't be very meaningful because there would always be another "what if" out there to account for. You can only do that so much before it begins to get futile.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Remember what I said about the "9" in the name? Jin Yong originally thought it meant "yang". Hence Yang-Yin. That's balanced. It's his original idea anyways. Plus the origin of 9 Yin is still a compilation of all available Taoist scriptures. Those always teach to go for the balance.

    This did change of course, but in HSDS we only see the shortcut 9 Yin. Even though JY wrote this, his intention is trumped by actual events in his story.


    It's like GLGS. JY probably meant for him to be a powerful bad guy. But his intention does not coincide with the actual events. Actual events show GLGS to be rather pathetic. Hence we believe that GLGS was rather pathetic.


    Novel evidence shows 9 Yin proper to be balanced. Novel evidence shows that 9 Yin shortcut is yin. We can draw our conclusions from that.

    Good example about GLGS. I seriously think that JY wasn't aware of how pathethic he made GLGS looked. Like I said before, GLGS looked even worse in TV adaptations because he just kept getting his butt kicked with no side commentary about how powerful his abilities were.

    However, I disagree with your 9yin example. There was no evidence that 9yin shortcut is yin based, JY never mentioned that only ZZR's martial arts was yin based because she took a shortcut. 9yin was said to be cold whenever it was described by the other characters or by JY. He never once said that 9yin is cold when you learn it quickly. 9yin was just said to be the opposite of 9yan, regardless of whether a shortcut was taken or not.

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    It would be interesting, but without well-defined parameters, it wouldn't be very meaningful because there would always be another "what if" out there to account for. You can only do that so much before it begins to get futile.
    But what kind of "what ifs "are there for GJ and YG? I would speculate on those two as well but we are not made aware of anything new they've learned at the end. We can also speculate on Lin Huchun since he gets YJJ at the end, or XZ who marries the princess at the end and therefore also comes into posession of Li Cho Sui's martial arts on the wall of the palace.

  16. #96
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Eh?

    ZZR was described to have cold yin energy. She only learned the shortcut. Ergo, 9 Yin Shortcut must be yin.

    No one actually learned 9 Yin in HSDS, therefore there were no descriptions of anyone with 9 Yin proper energy that was yin. It doesn't matter what anyone thought as long as no one actually practiced it. The creator of 9 Yang thought it was balanced too, it sure wasn't when actually practiced.


    As for being opposites, it was the theories that were opposing not the internal energy scripts (although it ended up that one was balanced and the other yang).

    For example, 9 Yang theory says to move second and thus control the one who moves first. 9 Yin theory is the opposite and says to gain advantage and thus victory by moving first. This is what ZWJ really meant when he thought that 9 Yang and 9 Yin will be very difficult to combine. The martial art theories themselves were literally saying the opposite.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 08-07-06 at 12:22 AM.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi
    But what kind of "what ifs "are there for GJ and YG?
    Well, lots, frankly (which is the problem). The inner power gains of the complete 9 Yum Jen Ging were said to be perpetual. Gwok Jing was literally becoming more powerful in his sleep every night. Thirteen years after the end of ROCH, when he finally died, goodness knows how powerful he was.

    Yeung Gor, at the end of ROCH, had not yet mastered Dook Goo Kau Bai's sword techniques to the No Sword level, but he was only about thirty-six years old...still a young man by most measures of human age. If he lived to be an old man, his growth potential was still not nearly fulfilled at the end of ROCH.

    But did either of them really advance much beyond what we saw at the end of ROCH? Unknown.

  18. #98
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    I would like to point something out to Chronoreverse.

    Even though it's true that ZZR practiced the shortcut, but her CHI is still said as 9 Yin Real Chi just as ZWJ's chi is said as 9 Yang Real Chi. This gives me the idea that what ZZR practiced in internal chi was the same as what it would actually be except that ZZR haven't mastered it yet. And this 9 Yin Real Chi was trully described by ZWJ as pure yin/cold.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

  19. #99
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    You mean "real chi" as the two word phrase right? That doesn't mean true 9 Yin Chi though. "real chi" is used to describe chi in general often. But it could be different from what I'm thinking. Maybe if you showed the text?

    Nonetheless, ZZR simply didn't have enough time to practice the full internal energy script yet. It could easily be as you say that she only had the chance to practice enough to end up with yin energy.

  20. #100
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    他只道玄冥神掌的寒毒尚未驱尽,不住的加力施为,哪想到他每送一分九阳真气过去,便消去了周芷若苦苦练得的一分九阴真气

    I'm assuming your computer can decipher chinese.

    I'm not suggesting that 9 yin may trully be yin based, but I'm just suggesting that there is that possibilty. If it says 9 Yin Real Chi, I'm thinking that it must be the original. Afterall, the unorthodox arts that ZZR learned were the external arts, not the internal.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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