View Poll Results: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji - Which team wins?

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  • Guo Jing & Yang Guo

    53 56.99%
  • Zhang Sanfeng & Zhang Wuji

    40 43.01%
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Thread: Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji

  1. #141
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    The math might not be exact or damning, but it serves as a rough guideline, and in this case it leans so far one way that it is a really strong assertion.

    As for your second point, I believe it was a combination of JY narrative and HQG himself thinking that, along with the clarification that he only failed because he was too tired after 300 stances along with his earlier injuries. Also, being wrong once does not really invalidate their opinions, it just makes you question it a bit more. The Huashan opinion was formed without seeing each other for 20 years and was based on their own improvements and arrogance. The opinion against Guo Jing was formed directly after witnessing his 300 stance battle with Huang Yaoshi, so he had complete and accurate information and can be trusted much, much more.
    Last edited by tape; 03-16-11 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Guo Jing was estimated to be at 70% of a Great, and Hong Qigong thought he could bowl him over with one stance if he really wanted to. This makes me think Hong Qigong could bowl them both over in one or two stances.
    From Ch 40:
    H7G realized he can't win by brute force alone against GJ's defense. It seems that inferior fighters can tie better fighters for at least a while if they rely on sound defense. I highly doubt that H7G can defeat Guo Jing (end of LOCH) in 1 or 2 stances. H7G's stamina wasn't as good as GJ's, and he didn't go all out for 200 moves to save face for HYS, but at the end, he seems to send an all-out palm that GJ was able to block.

    Hong Qigong was secretly groaning; realizing that he would not win relying on his brute force, he had to use strategy to defeat this dumb kid.
    ...
    Fortunately, Guo Jing had mastered the mutual hands combat technique, so with his right hand he launch the soft Vacant Fist, while with his left he employed the Dragon Subduing Palm; hard and soft worked together, yin and yang complemented each other. No matter how fierce Hong Qigong’s attack was, he could not penetrate Guo Jing’s defense.
    ...
    Hong Qigong heard her calling out the number two hundred and ninety-nine; he became edgy, wanted to win the contest; so for the last move he launched the ‘Proud Dragon Repents’ full-strength, with earth-shattering power to back it up. But once it was launched, he began to feel regret; afraid that Guo Jing would not be able to withstand and suffer a heavy injury, so he shouted, “Watch out!”
    ...
    Seeing Guo Jing was able to block this palm, which he sent with his lifetime cultivation of energy, Hong Qigong could not help but feel pleasantly surprised.
    Mitigating factors:
    On the other hand, Hong Qigong had advanced in age, plus he had suffered a heavy injury under Ouyang Feng’s snake staff. It was true that he had completely recovered, but his stamina could not compete with Guo Jing’s in an endurance race.

    Huang Yaoshi using 70% was losing to Guo Jing:

    In a battle between martial art experts one cannot let back even half a step. Because initially Huang Yaoshi was only using 70% of his strength, he fell under Guo Jing’s control. He started to feel alarmed, and busily launched the ‘luo ying shen jian zhang’ [falling flower divine sword palm technique], his body floating around at full strength. But Guo Jing now was not the same as Guo Jing then. Huang Yaoshi had used dozens different palm techniques, yet it was still difficult for him to gain an upper hand.
    ...
    Huang Yaoshi worked very hard to gain an upper hand, but unexpectedly Guo Jing’s position was very firm.
    ...

    HYS fought 100 moves until with GJ having the upper hand.

    After about one hundred moves Huang Yaoshi suddenly launched a trick move. Guo Jing did not expect him to make such move; he was almost kicked down by Huang Yaoshi’s left leg. Frantically Guo Jing retreated two steps and steadied himself. Because of this Huang Yaoshi managed to even up the battle situation.
    Huang Yaoshi took that opportunity to take a deep breath. “Amazing!” he secretly praised.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    You argue.
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  3. #143
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    1-2 moves was probably an over estimation on my part, but if Hong Qigong sent a full powered Dragon Palm from move 1 and competed inner strength, he would technically win in one strike. However I am not really arguing that point for now, and you have a way of creating arguments out of nothing

    The central argument is that Hong Qigong has the power to almost overwhelm Guo Jing in one stroke, so surely he has the power to overwhelm someone who is close to 1/3 of Guo Jing's strength. I don't really see how that is arguable.

  4. #144
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    My point is that Wuxia math rarely works.

    GJ has an upperhand versus HYS at 70% (with HYS having to use a trick move to even things up)
    We also see that GJ was able to hold off OYF and QQR's joint force for a while; they obviously weren't holding back. ZBT even joins in against GJ and he holds on a little bit longer.

    You're right about the inner strength thing, but if you count that as 1 move, then any fighter with superior internal strength will be able to beat a weak one in 1 move.

    1) I don't think H7G can beat GJ in 1 stroke (excluding an inner strength competition, which I don't think should be considered 1 move) Especially since GJ was taught by H7G

    2) I don't think Jin Yong thought about fighters in the sense that "oh, this guy is 1/3 of him, and that guy is 1/2 of that". So a lot of his fight results vary depending on what he's trying to do/show with his characters. People are just inconsistent.

    I also think fighting skill is different from internal (we've all seen half-dead LHC completely wreck far superior fighters in terms of internal) There's just too many variables to say 1 person is 1/3 of another.

    For example: Technique, surprise, speed, formations, knowing your opponent's moves, having someone direct you...

    a) GJ is able to tie OYF with unexpected Mongolian moves,
    b) HYS is described as able to defeat all 7 Quanzhen without too much trouble (meaning they're all fighting him simultaneously, but not using a formation),
    c) H7G is able to outclass OYF by seeing his "secret techniques" beforehand,
    d) OYF is able to capitalize on his weird moves with Reverse 9Yin to beat H7G and HYS (the other thing about this is that, if HYS and H7G so quickly admit defeat to OYF, despite him being just slightly above, where does that put WCY at 1st Huashan? Although, maybe they just didn't want to compete with a mentally disturbed person),
    e) H7G with HYS's direction is able to gain the upper hand against Reverse 9Yin OYF until OYF starts spitting
    f) DFBB is able to gain the upperhand against LHC,RWX,XWT,TBX with his speed (do you think he is stronger than the sum of those guys? or is it just that his speed gives him the advantage?). Similarly, LPZ, who is inferior to Yu Canghai and Mu the hunchback of Notre Dame, easily beats them because of his speed.


    Meanwhile: many chapters ahead of the 2nd Huashan (GJ made lots significant gains from this till Huashan) :

    Guo Jing did not expect him to come this quick, with a ‘Divine Dragon Swings Its Tail’ his right palm shot backward, crashing Ouyang Feng’s palm, both people were using their full strength. Guo Jing was blown by Ouyang Feng’s palm strength, his body flew from his saddle. Fortunately his red horse dashed forward; he stretched his left hand, grabbing the horse’s buttocks, and swinging his body forward he was back on his saddle in no time.

    Ouyang Feng, on the other hand, was pushed two steps backwards. Because of Guo Jing’s palm strength he landed heavily; his left leg unexpectedly fell deeply into the mud, straight to his knee.
    OYF with 1 full strength stroke couldn't totally wipe out Guo Jing, who is blown backwards, but manages to land on his horse still and ride away.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    You argue.
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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by remixedasian View Post
    2) I don't think Jin Yong thought about fighters in the sense that "oh, this guy is 1/3 of him, and that guy is 1/2 of that". So a lot of his fight results vary depending on what he's trying to do/show with his characters. People are just inconsistent.

    I also think fighting skill is different from internal (we've all seen half-dead LHC completely wreck far superior fighters in terms of internal) There's just too many variables to say 1 person is 1/3 of another.
    Not as an absolute rule that can be applied to every fight of varying levels of internal, no. But we have seen enough from ZWJ to know that he frequently struggles with people of lesser internal strength. JY's narration even claims outright that ZWJ's internal was much better than the Persian monks, or ZZR, or the XM elders.

    And the point still stands. When YG, XF, or GJ encountered people of much less internal (in the similar vein as ZWJ encountering them), they disposed of them quickly, some even in one move. Very rarely, if ever, do you see them struggle with people that were far inferior to them internally. That much is canon; I'm not sure how you can argue it.

  6. #146
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    There's only two ways to interpret a novel, by reading and citing facts from the novel, or trying to interpret author intention.
    With GJ, author intention would be he is a slow learner, but persistent.
    With XF, he is the best fighter in JY canon.
    With YG, very fast learner and quick thinking.
    With ZWJ, a pacifist by nature.

    If just looking at facts and feats.
    We'll see GJ, YG, XF accomplishing much more compared to ZWJ. Whether its author intention or facts from the novel, both point to ZWJ being a very weak fighter compared to the other three.

    Also, when I read other members saying 1/3 of [insert character here], I assume they are strictly talking about internal energy, or even martial arts capability. This is where you get over-performance/under-performance from.

    Like Du Monks individually are about 1/3 ZWJ because their combined forces were equaling him.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    THe Du Monks are better than the XM elders, and they are at best 30% of a Great. This makes the XM elders 20-25% of a Great, so beating them two within 30 stances doesn't seem too impressive for me.
    Guo Jing was estimated to be at 70% of a Great, and Hong Qigong thought he could bowl him over with one stance if he really wanted to. This makes me think Hong Qigong could bowl them both over in one or two stances.
    Do you think ZWJ is at best 90% of a Great, or was that just a rounding issue?
    And actually, ZWJ at full force at the end of the novel could probably beat a Xuan Ming elder in one or two stances as well.
    This is from Chapter 34; I'm assuming that he gets even better with experience over the next 6 chapters:


    Zhao Min’s martial art skill was actually higher than her brother, but her strength was gone because of the heavy injury; all she could do was crying out, “Zhang Gongzi, save me! Zhang
    Gongzi, save me!” ‘Whoosh! Whoosh!’
    Zhang Wuji sent out two palm attacks with all his power, forcing the Xuanming Elders to withdraw three steps backward. Utilizing his ‘qing gong’ [lightness skill], he ran after Wang Baobao’s horse.
    The Xuanming Elders and the three warriors were shocked; they also ran after him. Each time these five people were closing in, Zhang Wuji would launch a backward palm strike, sending out
    the formidable power of his Jiu Yang Shen Gong [divine energy from Jiu Yang]. Each time his palm struck, the Xuanming Elders were forced to evade, since they did not dare to take his palm head on.

    After three times of such strike, Zhang Wuji was able to take the speeding horse over.
    I'm assuming that if both the Xuanming Elders took his strike head on, they would be bowled over in one or two strikes, just as you might think H7G would do the same to the XM two oldies.
    Last edited by remixedasian; 03-19-11 at 01:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    You argue.
    You wrong.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by CancerLuna View Post
    Also, when I read other members saying 1/3 of [insert character here], I assume they are strictly talking about internal energy, or even martial arts capability. This is where you get over-performance/under-performance from.

    Like Du Monks individually are about 1/3 ZWJ because their combined forces were equaling him.
    In the other thread you were saying that ZWJ > the 3 Du monks, so that makes him an under-performer.
    Now you say each Du monk ~= 1/3 ZWJ, and that the 3 of them = ZWJ.
    Which do you really believe?

    ZWJ tied with people that combined forces to equal him, and would have won in an endurance match, broke through their formation to grab Xie Xun, almost escaped with Xie Xun, and was only stopped because Xie Xun refused to leave and started struggling.
    Yet this is the mark of under-achievement?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChanceEncounter View Post
    You argue.
    You wrong.

  9. #149
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    Are you serious dude?

    Seriously?

    "Like Du Monks individually are about 1/3 ZWJ because their combined forces were equaling him."

    Stop trying to pick a fight...

    I've many times said my point, you choose to ignore it, there's nothing I can do to help you..
    Last edited by Ken Cheng; 03-19-11 at 12:58 AM. Reason: Just argue the point. Don't call other people trolls. It's a big reason that *other* thread got closed.

  10. #150
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    hmmmmm.........the fight is undoubtedly intense, given the intricate expertise on all these characters...this is also theoretical (obviously), so all the mentioned prowess of these characters, as well as the inferred and supposed prowess they learned after the respective novels should be noted....but i dare say that the zhang wuji and zhang sanfeng team probably will have the advantage.....guo jing have roughly the largest number of techniques learned, plus great internal energy as well as mastery of the nine yin manual, as well as yang guo which can match to 95% of guo jing.....they may prove to be match for zhang sanfeng and zhang wuji, but zhang wuji has already under his control nine yang divine skill, in which mastery of such, although providing a little bit of lesser combat ability than nine yin manual, allows for quick mastery of other techniques merely through imitation from observation....not to mention heaven and earth great shift, being complemented by the holy flame tablets from the persians, which allows zwj to manipulate attacks......in this ground, the teams are roughly even, but in the end of hsds, zhang wuji have also acquired nine yin manual, inferring that he practiced it, they would probably win

  11. #151
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    This is a tough one. I have to say that I never truly believed that Yang Guo was better or even equal to Guo Jing. The LOCH greats, with the exception of Wang Chongyang were not only greats but considered equals. Yang Guo at the end of ROCH was crowned one of the greats, but was there ever a mention of the greats being equal? I don't know. I don't think so. So I never considered him "equal" to Guo Jing. In my mind, Zhang Sanfeng + Zhang Wuji would win this battle eventually

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodrick View Post
    This is a tough one. I have to say that I never truly believed that Yang Guo was better or even equal to Guo Jing. The LOCH greats, with the exception of Wang Chongyang were not only greats but considered equals. Yang Guo at the end of ROCH was crowned one of the greats, but was there ever a mention of the greats being equal? I don't know. I don't think so. So I never considered him "equal" to Guo Jing. In my mind, Zhang Sanfeng + Zhang Wuji would win this battle eventually
    I think it's widely accepted that the GWM showed some level of superiority (due to youth, or inner power, or any number of factors) compared to the older Greats, and Yang Guo showed some level of superiority compared to GWM, so the only person we have nothing to gauge on is Guo Jing. However with his youth compared to the older Greats, and the progress he has shown from LOCH --> ROCH, he is almost certainly also greater than both the Greats and GWM.

    Without a true point of comparison between YG and GJ, it's just easier to lump them as around equal .

  13. #153
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    Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor would win.

  14. #154
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    Guo/Yang would win without doubt😎😎😎😎
    Guo/Yang was the best fighter among Condor Trilogy

  15. #155
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    I am surprised the old poll results were so close haha. I thought there is no doubt YG/GJ is the stronger duo.

    IMO:
    1. ZSF, at best, is GJ level.
    2. ZWJ is comparable to other 3 in terms of skillset/internal, but given his "track record", I don't think there's any chance of him beating GJ or YG.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Quite the flood of ZWJ hate.
    Well I never arguing about Wuji capability as a martial artist but as a fighter honestly he is far from GJ/YG level..

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