Guo Jing/Yang Guo v Zhang Sanfeng/Zhang Wuji

[Whsie]

no, it was a pure wuxia forum. However, a lot of the people there aren't as expertised as this forum. XF is literally a god over there that everyone thinks can beat XZ or Xiao Yiao Elders(despite the fact, that I try to explain). And it was also a pretty new forum that opened in 2005. Btw, just to tell you, I was the one that made that 1 vote for ZWJ/Z3F side. So actually speaking, everyone other than me voted GJ/YG side.

[minutemanwayne]

In terms of technique, ZWJ might end up being far greater than GJ and YG. At first, I thought that GJ/YG would have an edge on ZWJ because of their versatile backgrounds. But I just remember that at the end, ZWJ also received the complete copy of the 9yin manual, making him the only person other than GJ to have the 9yin manual. With the combination of yin and yan, and Z3F's Tai Chi, it's not hard to fathom that ZWJ might even beat both YG and GJ by himself. If you're just talking about the characters during the time in the book then ZWJ might be weaker than YG or GJ but logically, n terms of how they'll progress, it would seem that ZWJ would attain a much higher level than both of them.

In his own thoughts, ZWJ thought the only person capable of practicing both 9 Yang and 9 Yin would be Zhang Sanfeng.

[Whsie]

In his own thoughts, ZWJ thought the only person capable of practicing both 9 Yang and 9 Yin would be Zhang Sanfeng.

No, it's just that ZWJ thought in his mind that Z3F was the only one that could learn both yin and yang together, nothing about 9 Yin and 9 Yang.

When ZWJ looked at 9 Yin, I think ZWJ was thinking in his mind that if were to practice it, he would need 10-20 years to master it. I'm not sure, but I think ZWJ is somewhat implying that he could also learn 9 Yin.

[immakiku]

I haven't read that part of the book. Tell me: isn't 9Yang supposed to be incompatible with 9Yin? Also, what's this other forum? Is it on spcnet.tv or some other forum?

[Wu Wudi]

No, it's just that ZWJ thought in his mind that Z3F was the only one that could learn both yin and yang together, nothing about 9 Yin and 9 Yang.

When ZWJ looked at 9 Yin, I think ZWJ was thinking in his mind that if were to practice it, he would need 10-20 years to master it. I'm not sure, but I think ZWJ is somewhat implying that he could also learn 9 Yin.

That's true, I remeber that ZWJ was able to understand the general principles of 9yin once he took a look at it which means that he can probably learn it. Also, keep in mind that with Z3F still around, he could have gotten advice from Z3F on how to merge the 2 arts.

[Wu Wudi]

I haven't read that part of the book. Tell me: isn't 9Yang supposed to be incompatible with 9Yin? Also, what's this other forum? Is it on spcnet.tv or some other forum?

No, it's not incompatible, it's just that it would require the abilities of a martial arts genius like Z3f to merge the two since yin/yang (cold/hot) are such polar opposites. Since ZWJ can learn elite martials arts in a couple of hours or less, I would guess that he'll also be qualified as a martial arts genius.

[ChronoReverse]

There's no reason ZWJ can't learn the martial arts of 9 Yin. The 9 Yang internal energy base is still pure taoist and thus completely compatible with the techniques within 9 Yin.

There's also little reason for him to be unable to learn the 9 Yin internal method. However, there would not be any benefit since at best 9 Yin's internal is about equal to 9 Yang's. A true genius like Z3F would be able to eventually merge the two and come up with a single set superior to either.


As for ZWJ learning fast, I think that's more a function of the martial arts that he learned than his own ability. His long study of the human body and medicine allowed to complete 9 Yang in five years (doing nothing but that). The Heavenly Bag then allowed him to instantly have full use and flow of the chi. That and his medical knowledge in turn allowed him to master QKDNY extremely quickly as well as bypassing the incorrect parts. Finally, QKDNY at the utmost level allows one to fully manipulate one's own energy as well as see how another person is using their's.

It's a nice chain that leads to him being able to "capture" techniques.

[Whsie]

and Chronoreverse also forgot that 9 Yang teaches "how" to use those techniques with the theories the manual contains.

[Wu Wudi]

I think that there would be alot of benefits to learning the interal energy of both 9yin and 9yang. In terms of the way that both interal energies are described, I would say that 9yang is a little more powerful. Even if 9yan is a more powerful form of internal energy, there would still be much benefits to learning 9yin as well because 9yan is the epitome of heat while 9yin is the epitome of coldness. If one can use both cold and hot at the same time, then he'll surely be invincible. I think mastery of both 9yin and 9yan would make one more powerful exponentially and not just as powerful as a 9yan master plus 9yin master since yin/yang are polar opposities.

What you said about how ZWJ is able to learn quickly is correct, but ZWJ also showed how quickly he can learn when he learned the Tai Chi techniques. The Tai Chi sword/fist techniques were more about principles than actual moves therefore one has to have a certain understanding of martial arts to learn Tai Chi. Supposedly Z3f's disciples can only really understand about 20 to 30% of his Tai Chi techniques. Even ZWJ was not able to fully master Tai Chi when he first fought with the techniques on Wudang mountain and had to fake using Tai Chi moves with his QKDNY but the amount that ZWJ was able to learn was already impressive to Z3F.

[ChronoReverse]

The thing about Tai Chi is that it's based on the principles of 9 Yang (Z3F created it as a result of his meditation to recreate the missing portions of Wudang 9 Yang). So it was already entirely compatible with the theories of 9 Yang.



As for the internal energy. While 9 Yang definitely exhibited a distinct "heat" and thus lives up to the "Yang", 9 Yin did not have such a description. The internal energy portion was described to be like an advanced version of QZ internal which was balanced. Furthermore, the practicioners of 9 Yin internal do not display any "Yin" characteristics.

GJ and H7G powered their XL18P with 9 Yin internal later but the palm technique only gained softness from the application of 9 Yin theory. Yideng recovered his energy using 9 Yin but nonetheless, his 1YZ was not affected. ZBT had some of the internal and also did not demonstrate anything of that sort.

From this, I believe that while some of the techniques were definitely vicious and "yin" in nature, the internal energy of 9 Yin is balanced.


Finally, the Taoist who wrote 9 Yang felt 9 Yin was too "yin" and wrote 9 Yang as a "balanced" couplet. It's rather ironic that he was rather wrong about the internal portion (since he couldn't read the more important Sanskrit portion) and ended up with an internal art that was shifted towards the "yang"


I believe that merging the sanskrit portion of 9 Yin with 9 Yang would be beneficial, but the study of both simultaneously separately would have no benefit. In fact it may even be a detriment since the focus of the mind is split (concentration in internal energy development is of utmost importance).

[Whsie]

well, that was partially because Z3F didn't finish teaching.
But QKDLY already let ZWJ see how much energy Z3F sends into whatever stance.

[Whsie]

The thing about Tai Chi is that it's based on the principles of 9 Yang (Z3F created it as a result of his meditation to recreate the missing portions of Wudang 9 Yang). So it was already entirely compatible with the theories of 9 Yang.



As for the internal energy. While 9 Yang definitely exhibited a distinct "heat" and thus lives up to the "Yang", 9 Yin did not have such a description. The internal energy portion was described to be like an advanced version of QZ internal which was balanced. Furthermore, the practicioners of 9 Yin internal do not display any "Yin" characteristics.

GJ and H7G powered their XL18P with 9 Yin internal later but the palm technique only gained softness from the application of 9 Yin theory. Yideng recovered his energy using 9 Yin but nonetheless, his 1YZ was not affected. ZBT had some of the internal and also did not demonstrate anything of that sort.

From this, I believe that while some of the techniques were definitely vicious and "yin" in nature, the internal energy of 9 Yin is balanced.


Finally, the Taoist who wrote 9 Yang felt 9 Yin was too "yin" and wrote 9 Yang as a "balanced" couplet. It's rather ironic that he was rather wrong about the internal portion (since he couldn't read the more important Sanskrit portion) and ended up with an internal art that was shifted towards the "yang"


I believe that merging the sanskrit portion of 9 Yin with 9 Yang would be beneficial, but the study of both simultaneously would have no benefit. In fact it may even be a detriment since the focus of the mind is split (concentration in internal energy development is of utmost importance).

What some of you say is true. However, in theories, ZWJ would definitely get a boost. 9 Yin and 9 Yang theories were clearly not the same. But learning the internal, they should be compatible because both arts are pure daoism. I suspect that 9 Yang's internal should be actually balanced. It's pretty clear that in terms of purity of 9 Yang internal, ZWJ is far inferior to Z3F and even inferior to the Du Monks.
As for 9 Yin, I don't think the Sanskrit portion is any longer written in Sanskrit on the version ZWJ got. HR intended the 9 Yin manual to be passed on to someone who can use it to combat for the good. How are you going to practice it if you can't read it? So I think the Sanskrit has been translated. And if ZWJ has some trouble, he can always ask Z3F for advice.

[Wu Wudi]

I think that JY in the early mentions of 9yin didn't describe the internal power of the 9yin manuscript as being cold based and opposite to 9yan because he hadn't thought of a 9yan counterpart. However, in Heavenly Sabre, he mentioned specifically that ZZR's internal power was cold based after she had learnt 9yin. I think from that point on, 9yin's energy is meant to be cold and 9yan's energy is meant to be hot. It would be probably too troublesome for JY to retroactively describe about how the internal power of 9yin was cold based.

[ChronoReverse]

What I mean is that the benefit of concentrating on one over the other would yield a better result (whether focusing on 9 Yin or 9 Yang) than trying to use both at the same time.

This doesn't preclude that if you could compile the two theories into one whole and THEN study that whole. That would then certainly be better than either. The problem is that it would take even someone like Z3F a considerable amount of time meditating to successfully meld the two.

I think that JY in the early mentions of 9yin didn't describe the internal power of the 9yin manuscript as being cold based and opposite to 9yan because he hadn't thought of a 9yan counterpart. However, in Heavenly Sabre, he mentioned specifically that ZZR's internal power was cold based after she had learnt 9yin. I think from that point on, 9yin's energy is meant to be cold and 9yan's energy is meant to be hot. It would be probably too troublesome for JY to retroactively describe about how the internal power of 9yin was cold based.

The official story is this:

JY used to think that the "9" represented yang and Yin is yin. Therefore 9 Yin would be balanced. It was later pointed out that the opposite was true. Thus in the 3rd edition he came up with the idea of the taoist making 9 Yang to be the balanced one.

Unfortunately, this retroactive change simply doesn't work in the light of what happened in ROCH and LOCH.

Finally, ZZR practiced 9 Yin for an extremely short period of time and really only learned some vicious techniques superficially. Furthermore, the technique she learns has been retroactively changed to be not one of the orthodox skills to be powered by 9 Yin energy in the manual but one of the techniques that HS's enemies used. So in the end it's still not conclusive.

[Whsie]

I think that JY in the early mentions of 9yin didn't describe the internal power of the 9yin manuscript as being cold based and opposite to 9yan because he hadn't thought of a 9yan counterpart. However, in Heavenly Sabre, he mentioned specifically that ZZR's internal power was cold based after she had learnt 9yin. I think from that point on, 9yin's energy is meant to be cold and 9yan's energy is meant to be hot. It would be probably too troublesome for JY to retroactively describe about how the internal power of 9yin was cold based.

Actually what you said could possibly support my theory.

ZZR learned 9 Yin Real Chi said by JY. It's the EXTERNAL arts that she learned that are unorthodox. But 9 Yin Real Chi was Yin/Cold based on ZZR's example. I suspect ZWJ and ZZR's 9 Yang/9Yin should both be balanced, but it's that both of them lack the purity of internal.

[Wu Wudi]

Actually what you said could possibly support my theory.

ZZR learned 9 Yin Real Chi said by JY. It's the EXTERNAL arts that she learned that are unorthodox. But 9 Yin Real Chi was Yin/Cold based on ZZR's example. I suspect ZWJ and ZZR's 9 Yang/9Yin should both be balanced, but it's that both of them lack the purity of internal.

What do you mean when you're talking about balance and purity?

[Whsie]

Well, it's not really proved yet.
But since 9 Yang and 9 Yin are both pure daoism internals, both should speak of yin/yang balance.
As seen from your ZZR's example, 9 Yin is yin/cold. And ZZR didn't have a lot of practice yet.
ZWJ though strong, is not as pure in internal as Z3F or the Du Monks are. And 9 Yang is shown to be yang/hot.
Since daoism speaks yin/yang balance, I'm suspecting that when ZWJ or ZZR's 9 Yang/9 Yin become purier, they may get more balanced in yin/yang.

Naturally, the reason why ZZR's 9 Yin chi is inferior to 9 Yang was because ZZR didn't even finish practicing her internal while ZWJ did.

[ChronoReverse]

In general:

Balance is the absence of tendency towards yin or yang.

Purity is a function of refinement of internal energy and is a measure of control of it. A high level of purity can balance out the advantage from simply more internal energy.

[Wu Wudi]

What does it really mean to be pure though? I remember too that ZWJ's internal energy was described to be not quite as pure as Z3F was but I still don't really understand what that means. I don't think that either 9yin or 9yan's internal power can be considered balanced because they seem to head in complete opposite directions. The 9yan internal power is super hot while 9yin is super cold, perhaps by combining them both, you can truly become balanced and have an internal energy that is far superior to both 9yin or 9yan.

[ChronoReverse]

I thought I just explained it. Purity is a measure of refinement which is the result of years of practice. With great purity, your utilization efficiency is higher and you are able to send, retract, redirect and send again energy without having to be concerned about energy loss and self-injury.


Well, ZWJ's 9 Yang is unusual though. It wasn't really super hot until that bag incident =/

As for 9 Yin, I think JY just made one of those inconsistencies for the sake of story. It's rather annoying since 9 Yin wasn't like that and he just goes and changes that. That said, ZZR was not practicing 9 Yin proper but only the shortcut version. The internal energy script in that version is unlikely to be the full power 9 Yin (which takes years of practice).


Furthermore, 9 Yin proper was completely orthodox taoist. By definition it must be tend towards balance.

9 Yang is also taoist, but unlike 9 Yin, it was written on the spur without being proofread by one person using his own personal knowledge and 9 Yin as a basis.

9 Yin was the result of the compilation and painstaking lifetime study of taoist scriptures and theories.