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Thread: The tobacco pipe: a key clue to figuring out Gu Long continuity.

  1. #1
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Gu Long continuity again...

    In THE ROMANTIC SWORDSMAN (TVB's 1970s adaptation of SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN, RUTHLESS SWORD), Sheun Siu Hung compared the duel between Lee Chum Foon and Gwok Sung Yeung to a duel once fought by Chor Lau Heung against a powerful enemy. If this is legitimately Gu Long and not a TVB innovation, then I've got this timeline:

    CHOR LAU HEUNG------>SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN ---> THIRD YOUNG MASTER'S SWORD----->FULL MOON, CURVED SABRE

    That seems about right, yes? No?

    Now where does LUK SIU FUNG fall into that timeline?

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    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Yes, although in some editions of the novel, Sun XiaoHung refers to the battle between Xiao WangSun and Mr.Blue rather than Chu LiuXiang and the Water Matriarch.

    I believe Liu XiaoFeng probably overlapped Li XunHuan's period (as well as the tail end of Chu LiuXiang). Theres no direct evidence that this is the case since there are no references to the other in each of their respective stories, but you can kinda infer it indirectly from bits and pieces within other GL stories.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong
    I believe Liu XiaoFeng probably overlapped Li XunHuan's period (as well as the tail end of Chu LiuXiang). Theres no direct evidence that this is the case since there are no references to the other in each of their respective stories, but you can kinda infer it indirectly from bits and pieces within other GL stories.
    Man, the fight possibilities this could have opened up...

    Seung Gwoon Gum Hung, Luk Siu Fung, Lee Chum Foon, Sai Mun Chui Sheut, Ah Fei, Yip Goo Sing, Ging Mo Meng, Fa Mun Lau, Gwok Sung Yeung, the Wooden Taoist...what a battle royal that would have been.

    Alas...

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    Senior Member Siven's Avatar
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    Gu Long and continuity should not go into the same sentence. Alcoholics are rarely big fans of continuity.

    This however doesn't necessarily prevents one from enjoying his work.
    林家有女玉啄成
    嫣然巧笑艳冠人
    纤纤起舞随风动
    疑似飞燕又重生

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong
    Theres no direct evidence that this is the case since there are no references to the other in each of their respective stories, but you can kinda infer it indirectly from bits and pieces within other GL stories.
    Tiger, care to share a few of these subtle hints?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    I find it a bit dubious, as that would imply all of the people in LXF, such as Ximen Chuixue, Yi Gucheng, and more, aren't even close to the top ten in Bai Sheng's Book of Weapons.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    I find it a bit dubious, as that would imply all of the people in LXF, such as Ximen Chuixue, Yi Gucheng, and more, aren't even close to the top ten in Bai Sheng's Book of Weapons.
    That's the thing, though. Luk Siu Fung didn't use weapons (other than his body, especially his fingers). Sai Mun Chui Sheut and Yip Goo Sing were master swordsmen of the first degree, but they used ordinary swords (then again, there was nothing extraordinary about Lee Chum Foon's dagger either, other than the man who used it).

    But if the two stories did overlap, I wonder why Luk Siu Fung didn't help bring down Seung Gwoon Gum Hung, or why Lee Chum Foon and Ah Fei didn't attend the duel between Sai Mun Chui Sheut and Yip Goo Sing.

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    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Of course, GL didn't write interactions between the two series. Like I said, there were never any explicit direct references, so I doubt it was ever intended to be a cross-over. But Ken asked about pinpointing the eras, and if you trace through various indirect references, namely references to events and characters, and piece them together, there is a good probability that they overlapped.

    But theres really no point in seriously wondering why Ximen Chuixue wasn't in the Book of Weapons, or why LXH wouldn't have encountered LXF, or using any of that to claim that they couldn't overlap. The simple answer is that GL never planned to write it like that. I doubt he even gave it much thought, or cared, that all his numerous references among his various novels would lead to such a time placement. After all, you can even encounter contradictions if you insist on thinking too hard about certain things among his novels. For him, it's all about the story itself. Making sure all his novels connected logically was not a high priority.

    It mght be fun to imagine how they might have co-existed, or wonder how they could have missed each other, but I wouldn't get too deep about it.
    Last edited by TigerWong; 04-06-06 at 05:45 AM.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    That's one of the things that makes Gu Long different (for better or worse) from Jin Yong. Jin Yong's continuity among novels is carefully and meticulously constructed (for the most part; he had some trouble connecting SOD to everything else). The CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY works seamlessly, and its ties back to DGSD very well too.

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong
    Yes, although in some editions of the novel, Sun XiaoHung refers to the battle between Xiao WangSun and Mr.Blue rather than Chu LiuXiang and the Water Matriarch.

    I believe Liu XiaoFeng probably overlapped Li XunHuan's period (as well as the tail end of Chu LiuXiang). Theres no direct evidence that this is the case since there are no references to the other in each of their respective stories, but you can kinda infer it indirectly from bits and pieces within other GL stories.
    In my copy both battles were mentioned.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    That's one of the things that makes Gu Long different (for the better or worse) from Jin Yong. Jin Yong's continuity among novels is carefully and meticulously constructed (for the most part; he had some trouble connecting SOD to everything else). The CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY works seamlessly, and its ties back to DGSD work very well too.
    Yeah. Different styles. Plus there are also just too many novels. You can actually get pretty far, and come up with lots of connections that could make sense, before hitting some contradictions. Depends on how in depth you want to get. If it's about getting an idea of the relative timeline, it's not too bad. If it's down to trying to connect specific plot elements, then it's harder. And even that varies. For example, the Dagger Lee series (Bordertown Wanderer, Sentimental Swordsman, etc) contain fairly careful linkages. Some novel connections were more better planned than others, but I'm not surprised that he wouldn't have meticulously planned connections between the plots of all 70 or so of his stories.

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    Senior Member TigerWong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    In my copy both battles were mentioned.
    Oh, really? That's interesting. All these different editions confuse things too. And you always seem to have copies of the rarer (by rarer, editions different than the ones you might commonly find online) ones, like the Twins references to the various personages practicing MingYu Gong. Maybe they will become collectibles.

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerWong
    Oh, really? That's interesting. All these different editions confuse things too. And you always seem to have copies of the rarer (by rarer, editions different than the ones you might commonly find online) ones, like the Twins references to the various personages practicing MingYu Gong. Maybe they will become collectibles.
    It's very confusing sometimes. I read in my copy of Full Moon Curve Sabre that Tianji Laoren (number 1 in the book of arms) was killed by Li Xunhuan. I was dumbfounded, because I was believed (and I still do) that old Mr. Sun is "Tianji Laoren."
    Another funny thing is in the Third Young Master' Sword, there was a paragraph on the current leader of the E Mei school, some Buddhist nun I believe. Anyways, in a lot online copies there was a sentence that people were of the impression that the particular E Mei School leader was a courtesan before she became a Buddhist nun. My copy did not have that sentence, there was another part that my copy did not have was the name of the technique caretaker Xie used to take away the sword of Xie Xiaofeng's aunt (Xie Fenghuang?).

    I think my Little Dagger Li copy and Legendary Siblings copy are indeed collectibles. But I don't think they would be worth much, hardly even 90% of its original prize.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    It's very confusing sometimes. I read in my copy of Full Moon Curve Sabre that Tianji Laoren (number 1 in the book of arms) was killed by Li Xunhuan. I was dumbfounded, because I was believed (and I still do) that old Mr. Sun is "Tianji Laoren."
    I agree. I've always thought that old Mr. Sun is "Tianji Laoren", though I've only read online versions of the story.

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    There is actually a nice passage in Tianya, Mingyue, Dao which tries to tie in a lot of the timeline of the "Dagger Lee" series. Basically, it mentions the heroes who dominated the last 4 decades. The first decade was dominated by Shen Lang (Wulin Waishi), the second decade was owned by Li Xunhuan (Duoqing Jianke), the third decade belonged to Ye Kai (Jiuyue / Biancheng), and the fourth decade belonged to Gongzi Yu. This at least suggests that those novels were about 10 years apart from each other.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    A decade is not a long time to dominate is it? Or did the protagonists retire from active participation in wulin business? The LoCH Greats dominated for something like 30-50 years didn't they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT
    A decade is not a long time to dominate is it? Or did the protagonists retire from active participation in wulin business? The LoCH Greats dominated for something like 30-50 years didn't they?
    Shen Lang, Li Xunhuan, and Ye Kai all retired into seclusion abruptly after shaking the wulin world. Same could be said about Gongzi Yu ...
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    the third decade belonged to Ye Kai (Jiuyue / Biancheng).
    So I guess Fu HongXue has always been overshadowed by Ye Kai then
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin
    So I guess Fu HongXue has always been overshadowed by Ye Kai then
    Well, in his own words, Fu Hongxue is a killer, not a hero. Only heroes are recognized as the renowned figures of their eras.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    the second decade was owned by Li Xunhuan (Duoqing Jianke), the third decade belonged to Ye Kai (Jiuyue / Biancheng), and the fourth decade belonged to Gongzi Yu. This at least suggests that those novels were about 10 years apart from each other.
    Was there a top 10 weapon rank in Shen Lang's time? How about 10 years after Li Xunhuan's peak? 4 novels, 40 years, completely different people (mostly), little connections. Insanne, if I may humbly say so.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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