(warning:sensitive topic) Yang Guo, ze ultimate martial artist among the protagonists

[Ken Cheng]

Look, if somebody started a topic called "Zhang Sanfeng: the ultimate artist among the Greats." And then proposed a definition of a good martial artist, Would you have as much problem with that?

No, because this one is actually debatable. It's framed broadly (and narrowly) enough that a meaningful discussion can actually follow.

[PJ]

No, because this one is actually debatable. It's framed broadly (and narrowly) enough that a meaningful discussion can actually follow.

Uh huh. So I changed Zhang Sanfeng's name to Yang Guo, and started a topic with the same premise, and then proposed a definition of a good martial artist. Suddenly my topic is not discussable any more.

Yang Guo, you are really a sensitive subject.

[CC]

I would think that when JY answered the question of 'Who was the best martial artist', he was only thinking of his main characters with reasonable speaking lines. Not plot devices like Sweeper Monk or Dugu or the 9 Yang Inventor or Damo.

[CC]

Uh huh. So I changed Zhang Sanfeng's name to Yang Guo, and started a topic with the same premise, and then proposed a definition of a good martial artist. Suddenly my topic is not discussable any more.

Yang Guo, you are really a sensitive subject.

Can we get back to SWORD GOD Zhuo BuFan already?

[Bangs]

Hahaha! This topic is so hilarious! YG, why does people always talk about you? So many lovers yet so many haters.

Im a YG fan, but still I can't consider him as the ultimate martial artist, better yet just call him as one of the best martial artists in JY cannon.

EDIT: Oh and sword god Zhou is completely ignored now haha. No offense.

[Ken Cheng]

Uh huh. So I changed Zhang Sanfeng's name to Yang Guo, and started a topic with the same premise, and then proposed a definition of a good martial artist. Suddenly my topic is not discussable any more.

Yang Guo, you are really a sensitive subject.

Cheung 3 Fung was not the main protagonist of HSDS, however. By forcing the "protagonist" category into the topic, you're basically limiting the range of possibilities to one conclusion.

[ChronoReverse]

Not true.

It was stated during the fight with Golden Wheel Monk that Yang Guo was not previously able to release the maximum power of Sad Palm. So, when he fought Huang Yaoshi, Zhou Botong and Golden Wheel Monk at first, he was only using a SUBPAR version of Sad Palm. And this subpar version already got Golden Wheel Monk scared. Needless to mention again, the maximum version crushed Golden Wheel Monk. It's only logical that the maximum level of Sad Palm would exceed the limits of Zhou Botong, Huang Yaoshi, Yideng, etc.

I'm really sick of this. YG's Sad Palms needs melancholy to function at 100%. Being super sad does not make it function at 150% or even 101%.

YG created the Sad Palms in his state of melancholy and it was powerful enough to possibly equal HL18P (which could be considered the unparalleled palm technique). Being in a state of melancholy the entire 16 years meant his palms were powerful the entire time.

Both ZBT and HYS (geniuses that most certainly have good judgement of a martial art) were astounded at the power and exquisiteness of Sad Palms. There is simply NO possibility that Sad Palms was performing at much below optimal at this point.

Here is why:

Yet when YG tried using Sad Palms against GWM, it utterly failed. It wasn't impressive at all in fact. This was the same palm technique that had ZBT (who easily can neutralize GWM's power although it was impossible for ZBT to inflict injury back) scrambling to defend. GWM had ZERO trouble with it and was inflicting wound after wound on YG. GWM would've won and been able to get off the burning platform.

Of course we know what happened YG finally regained the necessary state for Sad Palms to function and then completely dominate (the now rather foolish) GWM.

Right. That makes him a great STUDENT. Wuji was like a PhD student who has yet to write a dissertation/thesis. And, like I've stated twice in the past, the definition of an artist or a scientist is heavily associated with the ability to CREATE. Wuji didn't create anything yet so I do not consider him a great martial artist yet.

You're forcing a definition that is flawed. Your analogy with a scientist or artist is incomplete. A musician is also a artist even if she has no composition skills.

If you want to say that of the main protagonists YG was the ultimate creator then there is no argument; he was the only one to be a creator.

But a martial artist isn't someone who creates martial arts. The more normal definition of this singular expression (not just martial and not just artist, but "martial artist") is someone who practices martial arts. By this it's very possible for someone to be a great martial artist without being a creator.

[Wu Wudi]

I'm really sick of this. YG's Sad Palms needs melancholy to function at 100%. Being super sad does not make it function at 150% or even 101%.

I've always thought that at the moment that YG defeated GWM, his Sad Palms just went back to the level that it used to be at before YG got reconciled with XLN. This is the quote which said that YG had lost the power of the Sad Palms before his near-death moment,

楊過既和小龍
女重逢，這路掌法便已失卻神效，直到此刻生死關頭，心中想到便要和小龍女永
訣，哀痛欲絕之際，這「黯然銷魂掌」的大威力才又不知不覺的生了出來。

, which doesn't say anything about the sad palms being more powerful than before.


As great as the Sad Palms are, I still believe that XL18 is more powerful because it's been used by so many great martial artists and its reputation reverberates even after several hundred years of its invention. As talented as YG is, I still find it hard to believe that his experience/skill is the equal of the combined efforts of all those who've used XL18.

[Ken Cheng]

As great as the Sad Palms are, I still believe that XL18 is more powerful because it's been used by so many great martial artists and its reputation reverberates even after several hundred years of its invention. As talented as YG is, I still find it hard to believe that his experience/skill is the equal of the combined efforts of all those who've used XL18.

I believe that both skills are probably equally effective, but Hong Lung 18 Palms lacks the rather serious Achilles' Heel of being dependent upon an emotional state to function properly. Perhaps that's a consequence of the somewhat jerry-rigged nature of the Sad Palms, as opposed to the more properly developed Hong Lung 18 Palms.

[ChronoReverse]

I agree with that sentiment. I don't see much reason that Sad Palms should be weaker than HL18P. The technique was certainly exquisite and didn't lack in power.

It also appears that having two arms does not make it unlearnable as ZBT was able to learn 15 stances to a usable state and at least was able to know what the remaining two stances should be like if performed properly.

The requirement of melancholy is a bit irking though. It does have a benefit that a villain is unlikely to use Sad Palms well because of their tendency to gloat with impending victory

[Ken Cheng]

The requirement of melancholy is a bit irking though. It does have a benefit that a villain is unlikely to use Sad Palms well because of their tendency to gloat with impending victory

I suppose it's a great safety mechanism for preventing villains from pirating and misusing the Sad Palms.

[Wu Wudi]

I believe that both skills are probably equally effective, but Hong Lung 18 Palms lacks the rather serious Achilles' Heel of being dependent upon an emotional state to function properly. Perhaps that's a consequence of the somewhat jerry-rigged nature of the Sad Palms, as opposed to the more properly developed Hong Lung 18 Palms.

Well, I had much more respect for the XL18 palms after Sweeper monk commented that it truly was unparalled under the heavens. As respected as YG's sad palms were, no one made such a resolute statement about them. Sweeper's comment meant a lot since he's by far more powerful and advanced in martial arts than anyone else in JY's world.

[Ken Cheng]

Well, I had much more respect for the XL18 palms after Sweeper monk commented that it truly was unparalled under the heavens. As respected as YG's sad palms were, no one made such a resolute statement about them. Sweeper's comment meant a lot since he's by far more powerful and advanced in martial arts than anyone else in JY's world.

Well, in defense of the Sad Palms (no, I don't have a fever; get your hand off my forehead), it was a new martial art at the time. Hong Lung 18 Palms' reputation went back for at least a century before DGSD. Sad Palms, as of the end of ROCH, had been around for only a few years and a handful of people had seen it (and those who did were generally impressed).

[Wu Wudi]

Well, in defense of the Sad Palms (no, I don't have a fever; get your hand off my forehead), it was a new martial art at the time. Hong Lung 18 Palms' reputation went back for at least a century before DGSD. Sad Palms, as of the end of ROCH, had been around for only a few years and a handful of people had seen it (and those who did were generally impressed).

I think that the Sad Palms were great but I just don't think that we've seen YG done enough with the Sad Palms to put them on the same level as XL18 palms. XL18 palms allowed XF to be dominant in an era with lots of exotic and extremly powerful martial arts, allowed H7G to become one of the greatest of his era, and also allowed a young GJ to quickly compete with previously more powerful foes. Also, enemies like GWM and the mongol warriors were said to be fearful of being hit by GJ's XL18 palms. Even a hundred years later after GJ, the XL18 palms still had a great reputation which showed that it truly was one of the greatest martial arts in Wulin. YG's sad palms might have enventually reached the same level but we haven't seen enough to know that they did.

[Ken Cheng]

I think that the Sad Palms were great but I just don't think that we've seen YG done enough with the Sad Palms to put them on the same level as XL18 palms. XL18 palms allowed XF to be dominant in an era with lots of exotic and extremly powerful martial arts, allowed H7G to become one of the greatest of his era, and also allowed a young GJ to quickly compete with previously more powerful foes. Also, enemies like GWM and the mongol warriors were said to be fearful of being hit by GJ's XL18 palms. Even a hundred years later after GJ, the XL18 palms still had a great reputation which showed that it truly was one of the greatest martial arts in Wulin. YG's sad palms might have enventually reached the same level but we haven't seen enough to know that they did.

I think the Sad Palms made the Greats grade. It was good enough to equal the martial arts of the other Greats (which was about as well as Gwok Jing was known to have done with the Hong Lung 18 Palms against the other Greats). Everything else on Kiu Fung, Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing's resumes with Hong Lung 18 Palms as you enumerated was accomplished by Yeung Gor with the Sad Palms as well.

But that dependence on sadness really is lame.

[Wu Wudi]

I think the Sad Palms made the Greats grade. It was good enough to equal the martial arts of the other Greats (which was about as well as Gwok Jing was known to have done with the Hong Lung 18 Palms against the other Greats). Everything else on Kiu Fung, Hung 7 Gung, and Gwok Jing's resumes with Hong Lung 18 Palms as you enumerated was accomplished by Yeung Gor with the Sad Palms as well.

But that dependence on sadness really is lame.

I rank XL18 palms above the other greats' martial arts since they don't have the legacy of Xl18 palms as portrayed in the timeline of JY's books. The closest one will be Yideng's 1 yang finger but since it was considered inferior to 6MSJ, I don't put it quite at the same level.

[Whsie]

I'm really sick of this. YG's Sad Palms needs melancholy to function at 100%. Being super sad does not make it function at 150% or even 101%.

YG created the Sad Palms in his state of melancholy and it was powerful enough to possibly equal HL18P (which could be considered the unparalleled palm technique). Being in a state of melancholy the entire 16 years meant his palms were powerful the entire time.

Both ZBT and HYS (geniuses that most certainly have good judgement of a martial art) were astounded at the power and exquisiteness of Sad Palms. There is simply NO possibility that Sad Palms was performing at much below optimal at this point.

The reason why I think Melancholic Sad Palm can enhance to the so called 120% etc is because there is like a connection between the palm and the heart (which is said in the beggining of the JLFW battle). Well.... if it's connected heart and palm, wouldn't that mean the deeper and more emotional, the stronger? In addition, think of it as this: You are this kid: Scenario 1: One of your close grandparents died. You would feel sadness won't you. And since I specifically said close, you should be even sadder unless you have no human emotion. Scenario 2: Your failed a test. So what you're saying is that, with the small degree of sadness from failing a test would give you the same results as having a close grandparent die. I don't know about you, but I feel that sounds pretty lame, and even lamier when JY said that heart and palm are connected.

I believe Melancholic Sad Palm was performing at a good, optimal level. But since my opinion is what I said above, I feel that YG's power was further enhanced when he fought JLFW. Just like I compared the 2 above, look at this: 1. XLN away, but you still have that "hope" in your heart that you'll reunite. 2. You're about to close your eyes forever and never to see XLN.... ever AGAIN. Which case do you think would be more depressing, I feel it's Scenario 2. In other words, I feel that YG's palm power further surpassed the power used against HYS and ZBT(and also in theory surpassed XL18Z because the comparision was the one used against HYS).


AND BTW, you're wrong on the YG/JLFW fight. In theory, JLFW should have been able to defeat YG; however, low fighting mentality took over as the fight lasted. It was SPECIFICALLY mentioned that because YG's palm technique is "wierd" that JLFW is starting to become AFRAID. At this point of the battle, YG has lasted 200 stances. And JFLW KNEW in his head that if the battle were to last another 100 stances or so, JLFW is screwed. And that is when JLFW started to "fake" attack Guo Xiang to distract YG. So, I think the technique of Sad Palm is still strong even when it does not have the enhancement. You can sort of think of them as Sacred Fire Tablet Arts that scare the living of the opponent because of the "weirdness" of the art.

[CC]

EDIT: Oh and sword god Zhou is completely ignored now haha. No offense.

It is SWORD GOD ZHUO BuFan. Not Zhou! Not Zuo!

You are hereby sentenced to writing 'SWORD GOD Zhuo BuFan has reached the Peak of Perfection in Swordplay' 1000 times on the class blackboard!

[Ken Cheng]

I rank XL18 palms above the other great's martial arts since they don't have the legacy of Xl18 palms as portrayed in the timeline of JY's books. The closest one will be Yideng's 1 yang finger but since it was considered inferior to 6MSJ, I don't put it quite at the same level.

Well, yes, in overall fame and legendary reputation, the Sad Palms will always fall behind the Hong Lung 18 Palms because the Sad Palms skill likely died with Yeung Gor. It was not transmitted from generation to generation through a very visible and public wulin organization such as the Beggar's Union.

[Ken Cheng]

I think the technique of Sad Palm is still strong even when it does not have the enhancement. You can sort of think of them as Sacred Fire Tablet Arts that scare the living of the opponent because of the "weirdness" of the art.

I don't think all fighters are as susceptible to such distractions as the Golden Wheel Monk was, especially at the Greats level. The Golden Wheel Monk had the martial arts warrior's equivalent of ADD. Wave a shiny new martial arts skill in his face and watch him follow it like a cat follows a flashlight beam.