Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[Ken Cheng]

You know Jin Yong: he'd hem and haw and say something diplomatically vague that would raise more questions than it answers.

[PJ]

oh, you mean like during a Jin Yong press conference sort of thing?

Yes

See the complete 100 Jin Yong interview questions

[WuxiaMaster]

在所有的輕功身法中，何者是金庸認為最上乘最快跑最遠的？（穎璇）
金庸：韋一笑吧！我想他的輕功最厲害。

Sooo.... Wei Yi Xiao Qing Gong > Dong Fang Bu Bai?

[the.raven]

在所有的輕功身法中，何者是金庸認為最上乘最快跑最遠的？（穎璇）
金庸：韋一笑吧！我想他的輕功最厲害。

Sooo.... Wei Yi Xiao Qing Gong > Dong Fang Bu Bai?

I think qing gong and shen fa are 2 different things, qing gong is how fast you run and your jumping ability, shen fa is your reflexes. wei yi xiao probably runs faster than dong fang bu bai but dong fang bu bai attacks much faster.

[PJ]

I highly doubt the King of Green Bat Wei Yixiao could be faster than Dongfang Bubai in the field of running.

Actually, the fact that Jin Yong said such a questionable thing in an interview, is my evidence that interview responses should be taken with a medium sized grain of salt.

[ChanceEncounter]

Dongfang Bubai had incredibly reflexes and attacking speed, but he didn't demonstrate anything extraordinary in terms of footspeed.

I highly doubt the King of Green Bat Wei Yixiao could be faster than Dongfang Bubai in the field of running.

Actually, the fact that Jin Yong said such a questionable thing in an interview, is my evidence that interview responses should be taken with a medium sized grain of salt.

I would say that it's plenty fair, even if you may find some contradiction (as it's impossible not to).

The main mark against the Green Bat was that he didn't save Xie Xun, which isn't a fair barometer to judge his overall footspeed.

[WuxiaMaster]

Wasn't there a part where Dongfang Bu Bai managed to "GRABBED" Yang Lian Ting from LHC, RWX gang in a BLINK OF AN EYE. They didn't even knew what happened

[Ren Wo Xing]

Wasn't there a part where Dongfang Bu Bai managed to "GRABBED" Yang Lian Ting from LHC, RWX gang in a BLINK OF AN EYE. They didn't even knew what happened

Nope.

In this, I see no contradiction. DFBB had incredible fighting/striking speed, but nothing like the ghostlike qinggong of Wei Yixiao.

[Ren Ying Ying]

qinggong is can also refer to jumping ability. maybe wei yixiao can just jump really high or really far--you know, over an ocean or something

[WuxiaMaster]

What about the part where WYX rubs some dust on Zhao Min's face?

[ChronoReverse]

It's possible. DFBB didn't have particularly good qingong. He was just stupendously fast.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yeah, speed, quickness, and lightness are three different things. Being incredibly light can certainly help you in being fast, but it's not the same thing. DFBB was able to be fast and quick because his Sunflower allowed for his energy cultivation to give him a sudden boost of speed, not necessarily because he was able to make his body very light (qing gong).

Again, I still see no contradiction in what he said. That WYX cat is pretty damn fast. To draw an analogy, a snake can lash out and strike faster than a cheetah can. But in a race, I know who I got my money on.

[Aventinus]

What? Of course he was motionless, as in he wasn't able to dodge, walk, position...he was just standing there, and waving his sword. Are you trying to argue that he was supposed to not even move his arm or his sword, in order to be considered at a huge disadvantage?! -I- can kill Yang Guo if he isn't allowed to move any part of his body at all! And JLGS wasn't "putting on a show"; he was testing to see if Yang Guo would counterattack at all. When he found out that he wouldn't, he moved in for the attempted kill, failing miserably until he became even more despicable and started attacking the semi-unconscious XLN instead.

Conversation stared when you called out two instance where YG beat two Great without extenuating cricumstances...namely GWM and QQR.

What we have with GWM is YG doesn't move much because he has XLN on his back. GWM throws wheels around him for a while, and when he finally attacks his wheels break on YG superior weapon. GWM dind't go in for a fight that required YG to jump and run about. And when they finally went to an internal energy match XLN halped YG out at the end with her needles.

I maintained that these were indeed extenuating circumstances.

<i>Of course he was depending on the HIS. That was what put him at/above Great level, which is what this entire conversation was about.</i>

I think here we may have gotten to a misunderstanding.
A difference being drawn between the skill to wield the HIS versus the HIS as a precious weapon.

I say extentuating circumstance because HIS is a superior weapon and it had great advantage to YG...of course YG needed some skill to wield it as well.
But that his skill alone didn't propel to great level. In other words..HIS give massive weapon advantage....HIS skill with an orindary weapon probably wouldn't do it.

Come on. Jinyong says that they are 'roughly even', and your reaction is, "Well, we don't now 'how' even it is, since Jinyong didn't explicitly describe them as 100% even?" Are you serious? And besides, Qiu Qianren never used weapons anyhow; he was famous for his Iron Palms!

No that wasn't what I was aruing. Roughly even is fine.
What I was saying is they are roughly even....but we don't know how much the HIS make up for that evenness....as in Armed YG + HIS versus Two armed YG.....

[Ren Wo Xing]

Conversation stared when you called out two instance where YG beat two Great without extenuating cricumstances...namely GWM and QQR.

What we have with GWM is YG doesn't move much because he has XLN on his back. GWM throws wheels around him for a while, and when he finally attacks his wheels break on YG superior weapon. GWM dind't go in for a fight that required YG to jump and run about. And when they finally went to an internal energy match XLN halped YG out at the end with her needles.

I maintained that these were indeed extenuating circumstances.

No. Yang Guo doesn't move around at ALL. He just stands there. He does not move a single step. And using a weapon is not an 'extenuating circumstance'. No one else in the book can use the Heavy Iron sword, just like no one else in the book can use JLGS's wheels; moreover, YG would never have gotten into an internal energy match if he hadn't had such an enormous handicap of 1) Supporting someone on his back, and 2) Not being able to move. Oh, and 3) Having only one arm, which he hadn't incorporated into his fighting style yet.

Just two or three chapters later, in his fight against Qiu Qianren, the author specifically stated that QQR's extra arm and YG's weapon cancelled out each other's advantages. JLGS ALSO had an extra arm, had weapons of his own, AND Yang Guo was carrying someone and unable to move. So how can you possibly claim that the advantage was YG's, or that there were 'extenuating circumstances'?! Yes, XLN helped him in the internal energy competition by pointing needles at JLGS, but he would have would never have gotten into an internal energy competition in the first place if XLN wasn't on his back, and if he wasn't unable to move.

PS: Conversation started when Ken claimed that Yang Guo did well because of 'luck'. That was not the case.

<i>Of course he was depending on the HIS. That was what put him at/above Great level, which is what this entire conversation was about.</i>

I think here we may have gotten to a misunderstanding.
A difference being drawn between the skill to wield the HIS versus the HIS as a precious weapon.

I say extentuating circumstance because HIS is a superior weapon and it had great advantage to YG...of course YG needed some skill to wield it as well.
But that his skill alone didn't propel to great level. In other words..HIS give massive weapon advantage....HIS skill with an orindary weapon probably wouldn't do it.

The Heavy Iron sword and the Heavy Iron sword technique MUST be executed together. It's impossible to use them separately because any normal swords would shatter, unless you've advanced very far onto the NEXT stage, the 'wooden sword' stage. You cannot separate the sword and the technique; the technique was designed EXPRESSLY with the sword in mind, or perhaps vice versa, because that was the only sword in the world which could be used with the Heavy Iron sword technique.

No that wasn't what I was aruing. Roughly even is fine.
What I was saying is they are roughly even....but we don't know how much the HIS make up for that evenness....as in Armed YG + HIS versus Two armed YG.....

Doesn't matter. I retranslated that part for you. There is no 'roughly'. Jinyong uses the phrase, "可说扯了个直", which means, "It can be said they cancelled each other out," or "It can be said that no advantage was gained by either side."

[Dennis Chen]

I can hardly see your post behind all the straw men.

Ad hominem attack. Again.

That's not my line of reasoning at all.

Dugu Qiubai is much better than Yang Guo in swordplay. First of all this is corroborated by Yang Guo never reaching the wood/no sword stages.

Secondly, Jin Yong himself CONFIRMED that Yang Guo's swordplay was "not very advanced BECAUSE he has no manuscipt." In other words, he DID NOT receive all of Dugu's skills and only had his theories, and thus was incomplete. This "incomplete" skill made everything he learned before seem obsolete:

A.) Yang Guo's best skill is the HIS.
B.) Yang Guo's HIS is not as good as DGQB's swordsmanship.

C.) Ergo, DGQB's swordsmanship > YG.

I'm not arguing whether DGQB's swordsmanship is better or worse than Yang Guo's. That DGQB's swordsmanship is better than Yang Guo's is fact and I've admitted as much.

Then, in terms of internal, we can argue this inductively (he had more time to train, he developed the training method that YG used, he arguably had more access to it and the snake gallbladers than YG did) or we can use a line DIRECTLY from the book: the difference between HIS and wooden sword was the level of INTERNAL ENERGY.

A.) The wood sword requires more internal energy than the HIS.
B.) Yang Guo did not master the wood sword level.
C.) DGQB mastered and exceeded the wood sword level.
D.) DGQB's internal energy > YG's (by at least one significant stage).

Where in the book does it say that the wood sword stage requires more internal energy?

Therefore, we can use the third proof:

A.) All fighters with better technique and internal are stronger than those with weaker technique and internal.
B.) DGQB's internal > YG's.
C.) DGQB's technique > YG's.
D.) DGQB > YG.

There's a flaw. How do we know that the wooden sword stage is better than Sad Palms? There were a few times in the book where Yang Guo used his empty sleeve as a weapon.

The amount DGQB exceeds YG is irrelevant/red herring to this syllogism, and is entirely up to interpretation. It depends upon JUST how large the difference between the "no sword" stage is compared to the heavy iron sword. This is at least two significant stages, ESPECIALLY considering NO ONE ELSE was able to get to the no sword stage which is BETTER than having a sword. Sentential logic does not account for degree.

It's not a red herring. You keep claiming that DGQB was "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo. I'm saying he was not.

However, the only way you can argue that DGQB was not "well" above YG is to argue that the real version of YG's "not very advanced" swordsmanship + two significant stages is not "well" above YG's swordsmanship. If you want to make this argument, you are clearly going against JY's intentions.

Again, I'm not claiming that Yang Guo had better swordsmanship.

As I said, you can believe this if you want, but you do not have the leverage to state that others are wrong for believing otherwise. I proved definitively that DGQB is stronger than YG. We DO NOT KNOW exactly by how much, but it is at least TWO significant phases/paradigm shifts ahead. These phases are evidently very large, because NO ONE ELSE in any of JY's canon ever made this jump.

The major flaw in your logic is that you assume DGQB's swordsmanship is the end all and be all in all Jin Yong canon; better than palms, fist, finger, staff, etc. Ergo, by DGQB being a complete master of it, he automatically becomes "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo, the end all and be all of fighters. However, HIS wasn't Yang Guo's only martial art. YG had many skills. YG's swordskills is probably better than GJ's. Especially if you consider that YG knew Jade Maiden which can counter GJ's Quanzhen sword. Does this mean that YG is "many levels" above GJ? I would say not.

DGQB being a fraud is fanfiction until you can prove it.

You're the one that continues to claim that DGQB is "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo. My main claim is that there isn't enough proof to rank him at all. The burden of proof is on you.

Furthermore, your argument that creators do not necessarily master their arts better than people who pick it up is irrelevant in this case. Because in DGQB's case, it was explicitly stated that DGQB mastered his own techniques. Furthermore, with the 9Yang, QKDNY examples, the followers had explicit manuscripts. DGQB had NO manuscript (as confirmed by JY), and his followers could only piece together his art from his sayings, and did not master it to the same level.

Explictly stated by the author or the character? There's big difference where narrative is concerned.

Exactly. There is no deductive proof that Dongfang Bubai is level 80 while GJ is level 77. This isn't an RPG where we can hack into the game and see which character has how many HP, Internal, vitality, and strength. We are doing the entire list inductively. By claiming that we need to conform to your "deductive reasoning" (an impossibility with anything less than predicate logic) would make this entire list obsolete.

With DFBB and GJ, we've at least seen them fight. Seen what they can do. Wooden sword, no sword. We've never seen this in action. However, we have seen DFBB fight with needles. We've seen the ferocity of GJ's Dragon Palms.

As I said, I gave you four options to prove that DGQB is overranked. Not only did you NOT give any proofs, you continue to tout the SAME "logic" that I debunked earlier.

My final conclusion, which you seem to ignore, is that we don't have enough information on DGQB to rank him at all.

[Aventinus]

No. Yang Guo doesn't move around at ALL. He just stands there. He does not move a single step. And using a weapon is not an 'extenuating circumstance'. No one else in the book can use the Heavy Iron sword, just like no one else in the book can use JLGS's wheels; moreover, YG would never have gotten into an internal energy match if he hadn't had such an enormous handicap of 1) Supporting someone on his back, and 2) Not being able to move. Oh, and 3) Having only one arm, which he hadn't incorporated into his fighting style yet.

YG dind't move because he didn't have to move. For the longest time GWM threw the wheels around YG and not even at him. Then he threw a few at him and YG broke them with his superior weapon.

And no A weapon isn't an extenuating circumstance. A precious weapon like HIS is. And is indeed sueprior to GMW wheels..much superior.....as for getting into an internal energy match, you know as well as I do that even without anyone sidedness fights often get into internal energy matches...it's just the way of the fight...and it dind't happen because YG couldn't move or because he had someone on his back..it was because GWM attacked XLN and YG weapon locked with GWM....an internal enrgy match he was losing to GWM by the way.

Just two or three chapters later, in his fight against Qiu Qianren, the author specifically stated that QQR's extra arm and YG's weapon cancelled out each other's advantages. JLGS ALSO had an extra arm, had weapons of his own, AND Yang Guo was carrying someone and unable to move. So how can you possibly claim that the advantage was YG's, or that there were 'extenuating circumstances'?! Yes, XLN helped him in the internal energy competition by pointing needles at JLGS, but he would have would never have gotten into an internal energy competition in the first place if XLN wasn't on his back, and if he wasn't unable to move.

PS: Conversation started when Ken claimed that Yang Guo did well because of 'luck'. That was not the case.

This I agree with. YG did well because he had massive weapon advantage.

The Heavy Iron sword and the Heavy Iron sword technique MUST be executed together. It's impossible to use them separately because any normal swords would shatter, unless you've advanced very far onto the NEXT stage, the 'wooden sword' stage. You cannot separate the sword and the technique; the technique was designed EXPRESSLY with the sword in mind, or perhaps vice versa, because that was the only sword in the world which could be used with the Heavy Iron sword technique.

A technique that YG learned in a matter of weeks, where wooden sword he couldn't get for years. And as we've seen before leanring a technique doesn't give immediately give you an advantage until you understand and are well versed in it. Yet YG was able to make full use of HIS...from this I conclude that the technique behind wielding HIS is only in wielding HIS. His huge advantage is in the wepon itself. If you are keeping technique and weapon one in the same then fine. I just see it as a precious weapon (as God sent weapon as said) that make up for a huge part of it. (A and note though JY hints that it's more than the sword, when GWM comments and heavily praises the sword and ignore YG technique in order to try and fool the crowd, from other descriptions of strange power, it's evident that the sword as a weapon give YG an advantage)[/quote]

Doesn't matter. I retranslated that part for you. There is no 'roughly'. Jinyong uses the phrase, "可说扯了个直", which means, "It can be said they cancelled each other out," or "It can be said that no advantage was gained by either side."

Again I'm not saying they weren't equal.
That was never my point.
I'm saying they were equal because of the sword.

i.e. QQR with two arms may be massively higher than YG with two arms. But HIS is such a huge advantage that YG with one arm an the HIS is an equal match.

Also note that even though JY says QQR and Yideng are closely matched, I wouldn put some of that into the drama of describing the scene the to make Yidegn's sutiation look more dire..because...QQR full Iron Palm the HIS and it moved .....a few inches....while at the end Yideng touched the HIS and heat shot into YG's arm and the sword was immediately moved aside. Now granted YG wasn't bacing against the blow, but Yideng almost certainly wasn't putting much energy into his Yiyangzhi either.

[Ren Wo Xing]

YG dind't move because he didn't have to move. For the longest time GWM threw the wheels around YG and not even at him. Then he threw a few at him and YG broke them with his superior weapon.

Wrong. Jinyong, both from GWM's perspective and Yang Guo's perspective, specifically states that Yang Guo did not dare move. This is canon, not subject to interpretation, end of story, finis.

For fear that he would affect Xiao Longnu’s injured condition, Yang Guo stood there motionless.

And no A weapon isn't an extenuating circumstance. A precious weapon like HIS is. And is indeed sueprior to GMW wheels..much superior.....as for getting into an internal energy match, you know as well as I do that even without anyone sidedness fights often get into internal energy matches...it's just the way of the fight...and it dind't happen because YG couldn't move or because he had someone on his back..it was because GWM attacked XLN and YG weapon locked with GWM....an internal enrgy match he was losing to GWM by the way.

No. Martial artists AVOID getting into internal energy competitions unless they are absolutely confident of victory, because internal energy competitions are incredibly dangerous for both sides and can cause death by exhaustion a la Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng.

This I agree with. YG did well because he had massive weapon advantage.

Jinyong disagrees with you. Jinyong states that the advantage of the enemy having an additional arm cancels out his sword. Again, this is canon. So anything beyond an additional arm is an advantage for the other side. JLGS's extra arm and YG's weapon advantage have already cancelled out. This is CANON. Therefore, everything else, such as YG not being able to move due to XLN's injury (again, CANON) is an advantage for JLGS which the weapon cannot compensate for, because the weapon has been cancelled out by the extra arm.

A technique that YG learned in a matter of weeks, where wooden sword he couldn't get for years. And as we've seen before leanring a technique doesn't give immediately give you an advantage until you understand and are well versed in it. Yet YG was able to make full use of HIS...from this I conclude that the technique behind wielding HIS is only in wielding HIS. His huge advantage is in the wepon itself. If you are keeping technique and weapon one in the same then fine. I just see it as a precious weapon (as God sent weapon as said) that make up for a huge part of it. (A and note though JY hints that it's more than the sword, when GWM comments and heavily praises the sword and ignore YG technique in order to try and fool the crowd, from other descriptions of strange power, it's evident that the sword as a weapon give YG an advantage)

Again, JIN YONG DISAGREES WITH YOU. This is not fanfiction, where you can make stuff up. Jinyong specifically states that the technique behind the Heavy Iron sword is far beyond that of any of the other martial arts Yang Guo has learned. Here is the quote. "He kept thinking about Dugu Seeking-A-Loss’s words “heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority” on the slab stone. They had described a realm of sword art much more advanced compared to even the most ingenious sword techniques in the world." This is CANON. End. Full-stop. Jinyong also specifically states that Yang Guo mastered the Heavy Iron sword, that even if Dugu Qiubai returned, he would have nothing to teach YG, as far as the Heavy Iron sword goes. This is CANON. End. Full stop.

Also, Jinyong states that an opponent having an arm CANCELS OUT the weapon advantage. Period. End. Full stop. This is nothing which can be debated; this is CANON. If this is true for Qiu Qianren, this is true for JLGS.

I want to add that GWM NEVER commented on or praised the sword. EVER. Not even ONCE. This is CANON. More evidence that you're making stuff up.

Again I'm not saying they weren't equal.
That was never my point.
I'm saying they were equal because of the sword.

i.e. QQR with two arms may be massively higher than YG with two arms. But HIS is such a huge advantage that YG with one arm an the HIS is an equal match.

Jinyong disagrees with you (I'm getting tired of saying this).

But Yang Guo’s swordplay was really a testimony of Dugu Qiubai’s ingenuity. Even though their ages were far apart, he shouldn’t have been able to match this old master. With his sword practice under the mountain streams, the snake gallbladders that boosted his energy, and the Divine Eagle’s help, Yang Guo’s sword skills were very similar to those of the unparalleled Demonic Sword Master of the past era. As Ci’en’s palm arrived, Yang Guo’s sword tip was only nudged a few inches aside, and it was still pointing at Ci’en’s left arm.

There is NO mention of the sword itself; only of the sword practice, the technique, and the gallbladders. The only time the sword is mentioned is when it is used to specifically state that it cancelled out with Qiu Qianren's extra arm. Again. CANON.

Also note that even though JY says QQR and Yideng are closely matched, I wouldn put some of that into the drama of describing the scene the to make Yidegn's sutiation look more dire..because...QQR full Iron Palm the HIS and it moved .....a few inches....while at the end Yideng touched the HIS and heat shot into YG's arm and the sword was immediately moved aside. Now granted YG wasn't bacing against the blow, but Yideng almost certainly wasn't putting much energy into his Yiyangzhi either.

So now you want to ignore what Jinyong says? Jinyong says QQR and Yideng are closely matched. Fullstop. That is CANON. Everything else is speculation, and speculation does NOT override canon. The sword 'moved aside'. Maybe YG wasn't bracing against the blow. Maybe it also only moved aside a few inches. Maybe YG wasn't even using his internal energy at the moment, since the battle had ended. Maybe this, maybe that, but in the end, QQR and Yideng are equal. Why? Because Jinyong says they are. Fullstop.

Stop ignoring what JY writes and replacing it with your own speculation

[ChronoReverse]

Some of the speculation is fair though. Despite what JY says, sometimes actions don't quite match up (e.g., GWM doubling his power).

In terms of canonization, what actually Occurs is above what JY States.



In this case, we have QQR and YD.

QQR was only able to deflect the HIS a few inches (in any case, implied to be only small) with an Iron Palm strike. QQR could be said to be nearly full power at this point having only used a few palm strikes and having no injury. His internal energy and technique also does not require a tranquil mind like some taoist or buddhist techniques might. YG practically ignored QQR's blow nonetheless.

YG at the end of the fight (which he won after the snow in the eyes incident... not that he won only because of that, but he won quickly because of that) was pressing down on QQR with great force channeling internal energy. In fact, I believe it would be near full power since QQR certainly felt it was lethal not to mention YG still has inferior internal energy in absolute terms. At the same time, YD was severely injured at this point, having coughed up blood twice. Yet a nearly casual strike with YYZ not only brushed the HIS aside, it sent a hot jolt up YG's arm indicating that YD sent enough internal energy to force YG's back as well.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Some of the speculation is fair though. Despite what JY says, sometimes actions don't quite match up (e.g., GWM doubling his power).

In terms of canonization, what actually Occurs is above what JY States.



In this case, we have QQR and YD.

QQR was only able to deflect the HIS a few inches (in any case, implied to be only small) with an Iron Palm strike. QQR could be said to be nearly full power at this point having only used a few palm strikes and having no injury. His internal energy and technique also does not require a tranquil mind like some taoist or buddhist techniques might.

YG at the end of the fight (which he won after the snow in the eyes incident... not that he won only because of that, but he won quickly because of that) was pressing down on QQR with great force channeling internal energy. In fact, I believe it would be near full power since QQR certainly felt it was lethal not to mention YG still has inferior internal energy in absolute terms. At the same time, YD was severely injured at this point, having coughed up blood twice. Yet a nearly casual strike with YYZ not only brushed the HIS aside, it sent a hot jolt up YG's arm indicating that YD sent enough internal energy to force YG's back as well.

JLGS doubling his energy is very plausible; he was about on par with Guo Jing (who was in turn on par with the Greats) before the next level, but after reaching the next level, he had way higher internal energy than the other Greats. But that's another topic.

With regards to Yideng and Yang Guo, remember that the power of the Heavy Iron sword technique rests not in internal energy competition, but in the power of the blows, which is why Yang Guo's energy is described as overpowering, like the waves of an ocean, rather than a gentle pool. This is why in chapter 27, JLGS was kicking Yang Guo's *** in an actual internal energy competition, but did not dare meet the force of Yang Guo's head on blow directly (more canon). His power when unleashed in strikes is much greater than his normal internal energy might indicate. Again, we can speculate all we want here, but Jinyong, using the narrator's voice, states that Yideng is on par with QQR. That is canon, and that's all there is to it. We can speculate as to why Yang Guo's sword moved, how much it moved, etc. etc. etc., but none of that has any bearing on QQR's level, relative to Yideng.

[ChanceEncounter]

Ad hominem attack. Again.

LOL!

So pointing out that your post is filled with straw man fallacy is ad hominem? Really now? Where did you learn how to debate? This is ridiculous. Umm, hate to break it to you, but your post IS filled with straw man. Your new post is STILL filled with straw man, not to mention fallacist's fallacy, irrelevant appeals/red herring, equivocation, begging the question, argument from ignorance, cum hoc, genetic fallacy, and I could go on, but I'm really not in the mood to go through your argument like a logician, because I don't want to have nightmares.

Okay, listen up, this is the last time I am going to entertain this ridiculous argument.

I'm not arguing whether DGQB's swordsmanship is better or worse than Yang Guo's. That DGQB's swordsmanship is better than Yang Guo's is fact and I've admitted as much.

And yet you're still arguing technicalities.

Where in the book does it say that the wood sword stage requires more internal energy?

Where else? When Yang Guo was practicing with the wooden sword.

There's a flaw. How do we know that the wooden sword stage is better than Sad Palms? There were a few times in the book where Yang Guo used his empty sleeve as a weapon.

How do we know that the wooden stage is better than sad palms?

1.) We know that the HIS is >= Sad Palms. Elsewise, he would not have regretted forgetting his HIS against GWM. Period.
2.) We know that the wooden stage is > HIS.

Using his sleeve as a weapon proves nothing. There are plenty of pugilists that use their fist. I asked before, does that make them ALL > wooden sword? Laughable.

It's not a red herring. You keep claiming that DGQB was "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo. I'm saying he was not.

No sword > wooden sword > Yang Guo.

QED.

Again, I'm not claiming that Yang Guo had better swordsmanship.

Yet you claim it proves nothing when he has inferior swordsmanship.

Riiight.

So someone YG claims is far more capable and intelligent than himself uses a much more advanced swordsmanship that (as XAJH told us) depends upon the user's intelligence to break through other styles is going to be less than significantly more powerful than YG. Yeah, that makes sense. :rollseyes:

The major flaw in your logic is that you assume DGQB's swordsmanship is the end all and be all in all Jin Yong canon; better than palms, fist, finger, staff, etc. Ergo, by DGQB being a complete master of it, he automatically becomes "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo, the end all and be all of fighters. However, HIS wasn't Yang Guo's only martial art. YG had many skills. YG's swordskills is probably better than GJ's. Especially if you consider that YG knew Jade Maiden which can counter GJ's Quanzhen sword. Does this mean that YG is "many levels" above GJ? I would say not.

Red herring.

As it was stated, YG felt that DGQB's HIS mae Jade Maiden, 9 Yin, Toad Style, Quanzhen, and Dog-Beating Stick all seem insignificant.

As shown in the series, it's not so much EVERY art you learned, it's the level of the TOP level art. Unless you have L/R, you can only USE one art at a time (two if one of them is an internal art and one is an external). GJ has the inherent advantage over YG because he has TWO arms and L/R, but I will say that if YG uses the HIS, it's likely to even out, much like against QQR.

I've asked you, repeatedly, to prove that his sad palms > HIS, but you can't do it. And your opposition has already proved that he 1.) never intended for Sad Palms to replace the HIS, and 2.) he regretted not having the HIS against the toughest opposition of his life. And you want to talk about logical flaws...

In other words... PROVE UP!

Oh, and why is DGQB's technique the end-all-be-all? It isn't the universal end-all-be-all, of course. But it is plenty to be DGQB's end all be all. You know, with the whole... having a stance to beat every conceivable weapon on the planet thing; where FQY claimed that a master of this can break through anything. Just a minor detail...

You're the one that continues to claim that DGQB is "many levels" ahead of Yang Guo. My main claim is that there isn't enough proof to rank him at all. The burden of proof is on you.

As I said, I already established that DGQB is at least 2 phases (no sword and wooden sword). Considering YG couldn't even get past the wooden swords after SIXTEEN YEARS (even though he learned stuff like Jade Maiden, 9Yin, Toad Style, etc in a matter of days or months), it proves that the stage is significant.

Now, your argument is that, "well, it could be that these levels aren't enough proof to say, because it could be that these phase changes don't represent enough of a change because it could be that they aren't the end all and be all of the character's abilities." Sorry, Occam's Razor suggests it's more likely to believe my argument than it is to believe yours, which implies that we need to go against conventional logic and almost foolproof rules laid out by Jin Yong to suggest that DGQB is not much stronger than Yang Guo.

Sorry, I want a realistic argument from you, not repeated attempts at poking at the one in a million "possible holes" in the argument.

THE VAST majority of abilities that you can't even learn in sixteen years tend to be pretty damn strong, no?

Explictly stated by the author or the character? There's big difference where narrative is concerned.

Again, you're back to, "it could be false" fanfiction.

It was stated in THREE DIFFERENT BOOKS. You don't think that if his achievements were falsified, JY would mention it in one of them? Hell, he mentioned how the Dragon Elephant inventor went insane, and the QKDNY inventor couldn't master his own art even though he never even gave them a name.

Seriously. I'm done with this line of "what if" thinking. PROVE DGQB was lying or else DON'T bring it up.

With DFBB and GJ, we've at least seen them fight. Seen what they can do. Wooden sword, no sword. We've never seen this in action. However, we have seen DFBB fight with needles. We've seen the ferocity of GJ's Dragon Palms.

Again, irrelevant completely.

NOT seeing DGQB is not grounds to claim that he "can't be ranked." Period. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I don't know why you are unable to understand.

My final conclusion, which you seem to ignore, is that we don't have enough information on DGQB to rank him at all.

That's not what you said, as I already proved a few pages back.

I'm aware you can't give DGQB's exact number ranking. But there's reason to suggest that he's at minimum 85-90 considering YG is 78. And reasonably SHOULD be much higher than that.

You, on the other hand, your entire argument is, "we don't have anything to rank him with, thus he should only be at 80."

And if you noticed, he doesn't even have a number. So thus, if you are trying to prove "he can't be ranked," you're not doing a very good job.

As I said, bring an actual argument instead of trying to argue against Occam's Razor with fanfiction and hypotheticals. If you want conclusive, deductive proof, you won't get it for ANY character between novels.

And, stop dodging my points! You have not ignored so many of my arguments that I could practically fill a novel with them. It's doesn't make very many good debates when your entire argument is ignoring all the points you can't defeat and then attacking every other point with "well, it could be this [usually with fanfiction such as "if DGQB was lying, then..."]."

Again, please learn how to debate, then come back. The opposition has proven that DGQB is MOST LIKELY in the legendary level, and could theoretically beat any opponent. Now, it's YOUR turn to prove that he can't. Otherwise, it's fair to give him a "legendary ranking by virtue of 'speculation'," as he is on this list. Capische?