Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[Dennis Chen]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

I'm going to go talk to a Jehovah's witness instead.

[ChanceEncounter]

LOL, and you talk about ad hominem.

Funny how after getting boxed into a corner, you turn tail and run away. Congrats on winning the "biggest tool" award. Right after I said, 'stop dodging my points,' too. Bravo! Take your irrational DGQB hate elsewhere. And funny how you keep repeating the same thing, but you can't even create a logical argument to the contrary. You must be a Mormon to talk about Jehovah's Witnesses in such a fashion.

And you're also the first one here to earn one of these, nice job!

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/5631/dennismoronxh8.png')

Congrats on being a troll. Have a nice day.

[Ren Ying Ying]

Some of the speculation is fair though. Despite what JY says, sometimes actions don't quite match up (e.g., GWM doubling his power).

In terms of canonization, what actually Occurs is above what JY States.

I personally think that statement was misinterpretated and taken much too literally. "bei" is often used to describe something that "increases greatly", not necessarily in multiples. just like when JY states that the GWM can punch with the force of "1000 jin" does not mean he can punch exactly 1000 jin, not 1001 jin or 999 jin. likewise, if the same description was given to someone else, it does not necessarily mean that he can produce the same exact power as GWM.

[ChanceEncounter]

I personally think that statement was misinterpretated and taken much too literally. "bei" is often used to describe something that "increases greatly", not necessarily in multiples. just like when JY states that the GWM can punch with the force of "1000 jin" does not mean he can punch exactly 1000 jin, not 1001 jin or 999 jin.

Yup, this is roughly it.

Chinese literature is laced with examples of numbers used to express sentiments of scale and mass, but it doesn't mean that it's exactly as much. We can, however, assume that JLGS did improve significantly over the 16 year gap.

[ChronoReverse]

I personally think that statement was misinterpretated and taken much too literally. "bei" is often used to describe something that "increases greatly", not necessarily in multiples. just like when JY states that the GWM can punch with the force of "1000 jin" does not mean he can punch exactly 1000 jin, not 1001 jin or 999 jin. likewise, if the same description was given to someone else, it does not necessarily mean that he can produce the same exact power as GWM.

GOOD! You get it. It's one of the things that have always irritated me about the SPCNET forums in that how many people seem to take written text extremely literally. There are many things are are literal (e.g., a description of a sword stabbed into rock) but other things are often figurative. The Chinese language is full of idioms that fall into this class and I sometimes wonder why that's completely ignored.


In GWM's case though, I've made a thread about it before arguing how if GWM doubled his power, all the other Greats must have (or at least come close to) too thus making the achievement not really that extraordinary.

[Ren Ying Ying]

In GWM's case though, I've made a thread about it before arguing how if GWM doubled his power, all the other Greats must have (or at least come close to) too thus making the achievement not really that extraordinary.

i was looking for that thread actually...but i couldn't find anything under "doubled". must be another title then?

[Dennis Chen]

LOL, and you talk about ad hominem.

Uh, okay. "I know you are, but what am I?" Is that the right answer to this?

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/5631/dennismoronxh8.png')

Congrats on being a troll. Have a nice day.

Love that image name. This is probably the most childish thing I've seen on this board.

[ChanceEncounter]

Why are you still poking your head around after you've been ignored.

Until you can come up with a reasonable argument, instead of relying on fanfiction, you can save your hot air. Until then, I'm still waiting on your proof for your claim that Sad Palms was YG's highest martial art that I called you out on days ago.

Come on, where is it? Stop spouting nonsense and give me the evidence, if you even can.

[Aventinus]

You know bolding wrong and canon a tons to times doesn't make your arguments any stronger.

Wrong. Jinyong, both from GWM's perspective and Yang Guo's perspective, specifically states that Yang Guo did not dare move. This is canon, not subject to interpretation, end of story, finis.

And yet during the fight his immobility didn't mean sqaut because for the longest time GWM threw the wheel around YG. And when GWM throws the wheels at YG, he moves and lbocks and breaks them with the HIS.
That too is canon.

No. Martial artists AVOID getting into internal energy competitions unless they are absolutely confident of victory, because internal energy competitions are incredibly dangerous for both sides and can cause death by exhaustion a la Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng.

And you'd think martial artists want to avoid battles against much superior opponents. Yet it toohappens all the time. Never did I say they wanted to get in an internal energy battle...but that their weapons clashed and they were caught in one. You keep saying it was YG disadvantages that caught him in an internal energy battle, yet GWM then had all the advantages and he was caught in the same one. Neither advantage or disadvantage resulted in the energy battle…it happened as a matter of course for the battle.

Jinyong disagrees with you. Jinyong states that the advantage of the enemy having an additional arm cancels out his sword. Again, this is canon. So anything beyond an additional arm is an advantage for the other side. JLGS's extra arm and YG's weapon advantage have already cancelled out. This is CANON.

Therefore, everything else, such as YG not being able to move due to XLN's injury (again, CANON) is an advantage for JLGS which the weapon cannot compensate for, because the weapon has been cancelled out by the extra arm.

And yet being motionless and having one less arm was a moot point because for the longest time all GWM ever did was throw wheels at YG. And when GWM actually attacked, YG did move, he stuck out with his sword multiple times at GWM. The only thing YG didn’t do was pursue.

Again, JIN YONG DISAGREES WITH YOU. This is not fanfiction, where you can make stuff up. Jinyong specifically states that the technique behind the Heavy Iron sword is far beyond that of any of the other martial arts Yang Guo has learned. Here is the quote. "He kept thinking about Dugu Seeking-A-Loss’s words “heavy sword with blunt edges, simplicity brings superiority” on the slab stone. They had described a realm of sword art much more advanced compared to even the most ingenious sword techniques in the world." This is CANON. End. Full-stop. Jinyong also specifically states that Yang Guo mastered the Heavy Iron sword, that even if Dugu Qiubai returned, he would have nothing to teach YG, as far as the Heavy Iron sword goes. This is CANON. End. Full stop.

That doesn’t say anything against my argument. I didn’t say YG didn’t learn the full technique of the HIS. In fact I said he learned it, in the first sentence of what you quoted.
So if you bold canon more won’t make a difference because it’s not what I was arguing against

That YG learned it and mastered it so quickly there probably wasn’t much behind it the technique. Honestly. DGQB made the epiphany and the sword perhaps…but that he could master it in such a short time meant that there wasn’t much to learn. (I mean it would take YG three years to get good enough at Divine Finger Flick and Jade Flute just to beat LMC, let alone master the arts) From you direct novel quote… a sword art involving a “heavy sword with blunt edges”. The technique is simple, it just needs a precious sword to use. So in the end you have massive weapon advantage combined with steroids in the form of gallbladders.

Also, Jinyong states that an opponent having an arm CANCELS OUT the weapon advantage. Period. End. Full stop. This is nothing which can be debated; this is CANON. If this is true for Qiu Qianren, this is true for JLGS.

Guo Fu is YG equal because having an arms CANCELS OUT weapon advantage. JY says so. This is true for QQR, this is true for Guo Fu. See what I did there?

I want to add that GWM NEVER commented on or praised the sword. EVER. Not even ONCE. This is CANON. More evidence that you're making stuff up.,

Again I only have the Wuxiapedia translation to go from, but Chapter 27:
He strolled out, smiling: “Yang Xiong Di [Brother Yang], I congratulate you as we meet again. You’ve obtained this powerfully divine sword! This is quite a magical weapon. I only fear this old monk also can’t handle it.
So not quite making things up as much as you know, going off the book.

There is NO mention of the sword itself; only of the sword practice, the technique, and the gallbladders. The only time the sword is mentioned is when it is used to specifically state that it cancelled out with Qiu Qianren's extra arm. Again. CANON.

So is it the practice that makes them even or the sword that makes them even? You’ve presented both. As has JY. So both together make the even? They add together to even things up. And which fraction adds to what is unknown.

So now you want to ignore what Jinyong says? Jinyong says QQR and Yideng are closely matched. Fullstop. That is CANON. Everything else is speculation, and speculation does NOT override canon. The sword 'moved aside'. Maybe YG wasn't bracing against the blow. Maybe it also only moved aside a few inches. Maybe YG wasn't even using his internal energy at the moment, since the battle had ended. Maybe this, maybe that, but in the end, QQR and Yideng are equal. Why? Because Jinyong says they are. Fullstop.

There is no maybe. The sword was still brushed aside and heat shot through YG’s arms, something that Iron Palm was never described to have done. The sword that had just the instant before bore down on QQR like a thousand catty weight and was “strangely fierce”…keeping QQR on the ground…that Yideng brushed aside….no internal energy used by YG indeed (Strangely fierce by the way hints to me that the sword itself had power…but that truly is speculation)

I’d also like to add by the way that Yideng blocked QQR first attack his his hand. He raised his hand after the first attack. The rest he wasn’t said to have blocked. 14 blows later Yideng coughed up blood. If Yideng had blocked or parried all 14 blows, if he was on the same level as QQR they both would have coughed up blood. If however Yideng took all the hits without blocking, and QQR was similar in strength to Yideng, Yideng would be doing a lot less than coughing up blood after the 14th blow…after you know…dying like before the 8th blow.
That he took so many Iron Palms and only coughed up blood after the 14th one agains indicates that Yideng is higher than QQR.

Stop ignoring what JY writes and replacing it with your own speculation

It’s only because what he writes is open to interpretation,
You keep shouting canon as if it means anything when I’m not going directly against any canon. JY as we have seen is neither infallible nor completely self consistent in his writing either. Sometime JY provides backstory and background details, sometimes he’s describing the action. They don’t always jive together.

[ChanceEncounter]

And yet during the fight his immobility didn't mean sqaut because for the longest time GWM threw the wheel around YG. And when GWM throws the wheels at YG, he moves and lbocks and breaks them with the HIS.
That too is canon.

No, this is your interpretation. While he did throw his wheels around him, this doesn't mean that he wasn't exploiting his immobility. To assume otherwise is begging the question fallacy.

In the meantime, Jin Yong specifically states that Yang Guo was immobile; he only got into a contest of internal power with JLGS because he was immobile. Thus, he got into the WORST possible scenario with JLGS because he was handicapped.

[Aventinus]

Dang, I just realized I missed so much when I went out to lunch and repeated a bunch of arguments used already.

With regards to Yideng and Yang Guo, remember that the power of the Heavy Iron sword technique rests not in internal energy competition, but in the power of the blows, which is why Yang Guo's energy is described as overpowering, like the waves of an ocean, rather than a gentle pool. This is why in chapter 27, JLGS was kicking Yang Guo's *** in an actual internal energy competition, but did not dare meet the force of Yang Guo's head on blow directly (more canon). His power when unleashed in strikes is much greater than his normal internal energy might indicate.

Pointing to again weapons advantage. In the world of JY, the power fo blows does come from internal energy. Physical muscle power is pretty much ignored.

Again, we can speculate all we want here, but Jinyong, using the narrator's voice, states that Yideng is on par with QQR. That is canon, and that's all there is to it. We can speculate as to why Yang Guo's sword moved, how much it moved, etc. etc. etc., but none of that has any bearing on QQR's level, relative to Yideng.

Actually upon closer reading JY said years ago they were ranked equal.
And that now in a ONE-WAY attack he might only win by a small margin. One way attack, I take to mean Yideng taking it and using his strength to counter strike..I take to mean only internal strength to counter the attacks.

[Aventinus]

No, this is your interpretation. While he did throw his wheels around him, this doesn't mean that he wasn't exploiting his immobility. To assume otherwise is begging the question fallacy.

While the set-up pointed to GWM exploiting YG immobility, he never really did. He just went on bashing YG head on and YG kept blocking. That's kind of how the battle went. So while having XLN on his back was a disadvantage, GWM never capotolized on it because all he did was attack YG head on..even after his wheels broke on teh HIS.

In the meantime, Jin Yong specifically states that Yang Guo was immobile, and he only got into a contest of internal power with JLGS because he was immobile. Thus, he got into the WORST possible scenario with JLGS because he was handicapped.

JY also said GWM didn't dare meet YG's force directly....so getting into an internal energy battles wasn't something GWM had in mind either. GWM didn't take advantage of the situation by getting into an internal energy battle..they both wanted to avoid it....the course of the battle just ran that way..whether YG was immobile or not, it gave neither the perceived advantage to engage in one....(though after they were in one it was clear who would win)

[Ren Wo Xing]

You know bolding wrong and canon a tons to times doesn't make your arguments any stronger.

No, but maybe it will make you pay attention to them.

And yet during the fight his immobility didn't mean sqaut because for the longest time GWM threw the wheel around YG. And when GWM throws the wheels at YG, he moves and lbocks and breaks them with the HIS.
That too is canon.

JLGS didn't throw the wheel around YG for 'the longest time'; he threw them around him to make sure YG was immobile. After realizing YG was, he was delighted, and proceeded to attack.

And you'd think martial artists want to avoid battles against much superior opponents. Yet it toohappens all the time. Never did I say they wanted to get in an internal energy battle...but that their weapons clashed and they were caught in one. You keep saying it was YG disadvantages that caught him in an internal energy battle, yet GWM then had all the advantages and he was caught in the same one. Neither advantage or disadvantage resulted in the energy battle…it happened as a matter of course for the battle.

It happened because of the position YG was forced into; one where he couldn't move, and had to defend a helpless person. JLGS was not 'caught' in an internal energy battle; he forced it, because he had a higher internal energy.

And yet being motionless and having one less arm was a moot point because for the longest time all GWM ever did was throw wheels at YG. And when GWM actually attacked, YG did move, he stuck out with his sword multiple times at GWM. The only thing YG didn’t do was pursue.

That isn't moving, that's hitting. If you can't move your feet, you are at a HUGE disadvantage.

That YG learned it and mastered it so quickly there probably wasn’t much behind it the technique. Honestly. DGQB made the epiphany and the sword perhaps…but that he could master it in such a short time meant that there wasn’t much to learn. (I mean it would take YG three years to get good enough at Divine Finger Flick and Jade Flute just to beat LMC, let alone master the arts) From you direct novel quote… a sword art involving a “heavy sword with blunt edges”. The technique is simple, it just needs a precious sword to use. So in the end you have massive weapon advantage combined with steroids in the form of gallbladders.

The technique is not simple; it represents martial arts on a higher level than all the other things Yang Guo learned. That is canon.

Guo Fu is YG equal because having an arms CANCELS OUT weapon advantage. JY says so. This is true for QQR, this is true for Guo Fu. See what I did there?

Yeah, you made another bullshi.t comparison, just like the rest of your post. QQR is on the same level as JLGS. Guo Fu is not. Just more shit from you that does not hold up to logic.

Again I only have the Wuxiapedia translation to go from, but Chapter 27:
He strolled out, smiling: “Yang Xiong Di [Brother Yang], I congratulate you as we meet again. You’ve obtained this powerfully divine sword! This is quite a magical weapon. I only fear this old monk also can’t handle it.
So not quite making things up as much as you know, going off the book.

You're right here. I missed that line. Although I don't see what relevance it has.

There is no maybe. The sword was still brushed aside and heat shot through YG’s arms, something that Iron Palm was never described to have done. The sword that had just the instant before bore down on QQR like a thousand catty weight and was “strangely fierce”…keeping QQR on the ground…that Yideng brushed aside….no internal energy used by YG indeed (Strangely fierce by the way hints to me that the sword itself had power…but that truly is speculation)

Force=Mass times acceleration. A sword that is being swung will ALWAYS have more force and be harder to deflect than a force which is not being swung.

I’d also like to add by the way that Yideng blocked QQR first attack his his hand. He raised his hand after the first attack. The rest he wasn’t said to have blocked. 14 blows later Yideng coughed up blood. If Yideng had blocked or parried all 14 blows, if he was on the same level as QQR they both would have coughed up blood. If however Yideng took all the hits without blocking, and QQR was similar in strength to Yideng, Yideng would be doing a lot less than coughing up blood after the 14th blow…after you know…dying like before the 8th blow.
That he took so many Iron Palms and only coughed up blood after the 14th one agains indicates that Yideng is higher than QQR.

The person receiving blows generally suffers more damage than the person sending blows, even when they are of equivalent strength; this is why Murong Bo felt pain from blocking Xiao Feng's attacks, even when they are on the same level. In addition, there was actual a bit of mistranslation in that passage, so this isn't your fault; it was stated that Yideng's YYZ was about on par with the Iron Palms, but that his own palm skills were inferior; this is why, when he is just using his palms to receive QQR's, it was akin to receiving a beating.

I'll do a retranslation shortly; Shuku.net is currently down for me.

[Aventinus]

His performance against JLGS was evidence that he still hadn't mastered the wooden sword, much less no sword. He couldn't even use an ordinary metal sword like the way he used the Heavy Iron sword, much less a sword made of wood!

Again I'm not saying that YG mastered the wooden sword. I believe he was far from it....but...the above just says he tried to use a regular sword like the HIS and failed....as opposed to trying to use a regular sword like a wooden sword.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Again I'm not saying that YG mastered the wooden sword. I believe he was far from it....but...the above just says he tried to use a regular sword like the HIS and failed....as opposed to trying to use a regular sword like a wooden sword.

Huh? No. The wooden sword, in ROCH, is supposed to be used the same way the HIS is. There is no 'using a regular sword like a wooden sword', because the wooden sword is supposed to be used like the HIS.

[Dennis Chen]

ai mi tuo fo.

[Aventinus]

JLGS didn't throw the wheel around YG for 'the longest time'; he threw them around him to make sure YG was immobile. After realizing YG was, he was delighted, and proceeded to attack.

Fawang appeared not to hear the comment. The five wheels were continuously thrown out and then came back, still circling around Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu. Then the wheels flew high and low, straight and slanting, making both soft and loud noises. The spectators were all bedazzled and anxious.

It happened because of the position YG was forced into; one where he couldn't move, and had to defend a helpless person. JLGS was not 'caught' in an internal energy battle; he forced it, because he had a higher internal energy.

GWM dind't force it because he was afraid off meeting YG's forece head on. Their weapons clashed because YG was trying to protect XLN...but weapons often do clash..GWM didn't force this....

That isn't moving, that's hitting. If you can't move your feet, you are at a HUGE disadvantage.

One that GWM never took advantage of because he always drectly attack YG, and YG was able to block because of his weapons advantage

The technique is not simple; it represents martial arts on a higher level than all the other things Yang Guo learned. That is canon.

The technique is higher....nothing said about it not being simple. In fact it's calle simple. That too is canon.

Yeah, you made another bullshi.t comparison, just like the rest of your post. QQR is on the same level as JLGS. Guo Fu is not. Just more shit from you that does not hold up to logic.

Evidence that QQR is on the same level at GWM. I thought that's one of the disagreement we are having. Oh..yeah YG beats QQR with a huge sword, and XLN pokes GWM with a needle, that's why QQR and GWM are equal.

Force=Mass times acceleration. A sword that is being swung will ALWAYS have more force and be harder to deflect than a force which is not being swung.

So again....weapons advantage YG. Thanks for backing that up.

The person receiving blows generally suffers more damage than the person sending blows, even when they are of equivalent strength; this is why Murong Bo felt pain from blocking Xiao Feng's attacks, even when they are on the same level. In addition, there was actual a bit of mistranslation in that passage, so this isn't your fault; it was stated that Yideng's YYZ was about on par with the Iron Palms, but that his own palm skills were inferior; this is why, when he is just using his palms to receive QQR's, it was akin to receiving a beating.

I await the translation.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Fawang appeared not to hear the comment. The five wheels were continuously thrown out and then came back, still circling around Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu. Then the wheels flew high and low, straight and slanting, making both soft and loud noises. The spectators were all bedazzled and anxious.

Sigh. If you're going to make a quote, use the whole quote. Immediately afterwards, "Fawang called out: “Be careful!” Suddenly the five wheels returned again, coming side by side about to strike the two people like five powerful waves."

I can't believe someone is trying to claim that Yang Guo standing in a single place, not moving, with someone on his back, performs just as well as Yang Guo who is free to run, leap, position, attack, etc. etc. etc.

One that GWM never took advantage of because he always drectly attack YG, and YG was able to block because of his weapons advantage

Just by attacking, he is already taking advantage! What are you suggesting, that he attacks from behind? Oh, wait...he did that, and Yang Guo still chopped his wheel in half. Anyone can tell you that footwork is critical in martial arts. If one fighter is able to walk around, and the other is not, unless there is an incredibly high level of difference between their ability, the one who can walk around will win, even if he doesn't attack from the back.

The technique is higher....nothing said about it not being simple. In fact it's calle simple. That too is canon.

The canonical simplicity is one which is superior to complexity, not inferior, which is how you seem to be making it out as. This rests in the Daoist/Buddhist ideals of not-moving being greater than moving, of not-acting being more effective than acting, etc. etc. etc. To put it another way, when a monk is still, he is accomplishing something. When you and I are still on the couch, we are accomplishing nothing. It's within an entirely different realm.

Evidence that QQR is on the same level at GWM. I thought that's one of the disagreement we are having. Oh..yeah YG beats QQR with a huge sword, and XLN pokes GWM with a needle, that's why QQR and GWM are equal.

Even if you want to discount JY's statement that it took Yideng=QQR, later on in the novel, JLGS takes a full day and a full night to fight and kill QQR. It is generally accepted by most people that QQR=Greats.

So again....weapons advantage YG. Thanks for backing that up.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? F=MA. A=0 (Because he was holding the sword still). Therefore, F=0.

I await the translation.

Will put it out when I can.

[ChronoReverse]

Acceleration isn't the same as velocity RWX. The acceleration (technically deceleration) applied by the HIS was tremendous.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Acceleration isn't the same as velocity RWX. The acceleration (technically deceleration) applied by the HIS was tremendous.

I'm well aware of what velocity is. There was no acceleration or decceleration. The sword had come to a standstill; all decceleration had ceased, otherwise it wouldn't be at a standstill. The only possible way there could still be decceleration at the time Yideng struck the sword would be if he struck it as soon as it stopped, but before the deccelerating force had dissipated. Pretty coincidental timing, if you ask me.