Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[yangguo_]

She's not ranked yet right now. I think she should be much higher than Cheng Kun, and maybe slightly below Zhang Wu Ji - around 70 to 75.

It took her much less strokes to defeat ZZR than ZWJ did, correct?
Why would you rank her below ZWJ? It's "possible" she knows the FULL 9yin, wouldn't that make her range all the way up to Huang Shang?

[devilz91]

It took her much less strokes to defeat ZZR than ZWJ did, correct?
Why would you rank her below ZWJ? It's "possible" she knows the FULL 9yin, wouldn't that make her range all the way up to Huang Shang?

ZWJ could beat ZZR easily if he wanted to.

If Lady Yang was as strong as Huang Shang she would have defeated ZZR in one stance.

[yangguo_]

ZWJ could beat ZZR easily if he wanted to.

If Lady Yang was as strong as Huang Shang she would have defeated ZZR in one stance.

But we're not talking about the full potential of each fighter are we? Or else YG and LHC would be ranked much higher.

Beating someone in one stance might not show the differences between the versions, only the difference between each fighter. Perhaps Lady Yang wanted ZZR to know the differences between their versions.

And it didn't say how many stances it took for the Lady Yang to defeat ZZR, but she "didn't show the least sign of defeat". Meaning she was leagues above ZZR, and quite possibly above ZWJ.

"it seemed like she was trying to find out the ins and outs of
Zhou Zhiruo’s martial art. She would have had flattened Zhou Zhiruo early on if she took the fight
seriously."

[devilz91]

ZWJ is about the same as GJ and GJ trained the full 9 Yin for over 30 years. Even if Lady Yang knows full 9 Yin it would be a stretch to say she's better than ZWJ, let alone HS.

But we're not talking about the full potential of each fighter are we? Or else YG and LHC would be ranked much higher.

Not necessarily talking about full potential, just not holding back and going all out since the start.

And it didn't say how many stances it took for the Lady Yang to defeat ZZR, but she "didn't show the least sign of defeat". Meaning she was leagues above ZZR, and quite possibly above ZWJ.

Yes, but she could be leagues above ZZR and still be significantly below ZWJ. That's how big the gap is between ZWJ and ZZR, by my estimations. It's not impossible that she's above ZWJ and reaching HS's level, but you'd be putting her at the 99th percentile of her possible range.

[yangguo_]

ZWJ had a lot of lucky circumstances to get to GJ level.
GJ trained the full 9 yin, but he never used the 9 yin techniques, only the inner energy.

It's quite possible for her to be above GJ, using 9yin inner energy complimented by 9yin techniques. That's why I think HS is speculated to be more powerful than GJ.

[PJ]

It's quite possible for her to be above GJ

Not really. Only protagonists get to become Great-level in their 20s/30s. I don't think there is any case in JY universe of a non-protagonist achieving so.

[Ken Cheng]

Not really. Only protagonists get to become Great-level in their 20s/30s. I don't think there is any case in JY universe of a non-protagonist achieving so.

How about Mo Yung Bok and Siu Yeun San? Or the (then-)young people who would eventually be known as the Siu Yiu Sect Elders?

[yangguo_]

Not really. Only protagonists get to become Great-level in their 20s/30s. I don't think there is any case in JY universe of a non-protagonist achieving so.

Lady Yang might have had some lucky circumstances, also she wouldn't be distracted with country matters like GJ, because she would be living in a cave? If a protagonist can achieve great-level in a young age, it's possible for anybody else.

What about DGQB, DFBB, is XZ/DY considered a protagonist or is QF the protagonist (leading character)?

[devilz91]

Lady Yang might have had some lucky circumstances, also she wouldn't be distracted with country matters like GJ, because she would be living in a cave? If a protagonist can achieve great-level in a young age, it's possible for anybody else.

You can speculate about what may or may not have happened to her, but there's really no good reason to assume she's as good as you say she is.

What about DGQB, DFBB, is XZ/DY considered a protagonist or is QF the protagonist (leading character)?

DGQB probably yes. DFBB was much older than 30s when s/he hit Great level. XZ and DY are both protagonists.

[PJ]

How about Mo Yung Bok and Siu Yeun San? Or the (then-)young people who would eventually be known as the Siu Yiu Sect Elders?

Can't apply a novel rule to off-novel events.

[tape]

Can't apply a novel rule to off-novel events.

Not really a great rule in the first place PJ . I'd agree with you that Lady Yang is probably not Greats level but I don't think there's really such a rule. Yau Tanzhi, Jiumozhi, Xiao Yao Elders and all those unnamed legendary creators could all believably have hit Greats level at around that age if some circumstances were slightly different.

Interestingly, Dugu Qiubai could very easily not have been Greats level at the age of 20-30's, it's just he somehow figured a way to not plateau and kept improving. THAT's pretty rare.

[PJ]

Not really a great rule in the first place PJ .

Funny you say that, then mention a bunch of examples that do nothing to detract from the rule

It's simple. Becoming Great-level at a young age within the novel is a special privilege reserved for the protagonist - and one that I can think of no other character attaining, presumably to make the main character's martial arts achievement stand out.

[tape]

Well it doesn't document their lives so yeah, it's hard to explicitly list when they became Greats level fighters, but I don't see it as some hard set rule.

Dugu, Xiaoyao Elders, and all the legendary creators could have reached that level at a young age. With Tonglao we know that she started elite martial arts training at like seven years old. I just don't think it's a particularly strong argument when the sample size is like 15 people and we don't know even know for like 5 of them.

[Ken Cheng]

Can't apply a novel rule to off-novel events.

What do you mean?

Mo Yung Bok easily defeated the Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk when Mo Yung was just fifteen years old. To me, that indicates that Mo Yung was already knocking on the door of Greats-level even as a teenager.

[PJ]

The examples from you guys are irrelevant since they didn't take place within the current time of the novel (i.e. flashbacks don't count).

The "rule" as I defined had several parts:
1. Becoming Great-level
2. at a young age (20s/30s)
3. within the current time of the novel (i.e. not a flashback)

I proposed that no non-protagonist has ever attained the above 3 requirements. If you think of an example, let me know.

[tape]

You are right that that never occurs, but the fact that there are non-protagonists who could possibly have been Greats level at a young age means that it's possible Lady Yang reached Greats level at a young age also. I know saying "it's possible" is a pretty useless statement, but considering her martial arts were way above ZZR, seemingly had access to the full 9 Yin, and was a descendant of Yang Guo who had other types of Greats level martial arts, it's not a crazy statement.

[tape]

I personally don't think there's enough to gauge her martial arts level, but it wouldn't be terribly shocking if she was at Greats level btw.

[Ken Cheng]

You are right that that never occurs, but the fact that there are non-protagonists who could possibly have been Greats level at a young age means that it's possible Lady Yang reached Greats level at a young age also. I know saying "it's possible" is a pretty useless statement, but considering her martial arts were way above ZZR, seemingly had access to the full 9 Yin, and was a descendant of Yang Guo who had other types of Greats level martial arts, it's not a crazy statement.

We could put it this way: although there's no concrete evidence proving that she is, it's easier to believe that she is than she isn't.

[tape]

One more thing is that if we believe her to be much more powerful than ZZR and not just due to knowing her techniques inside out (which I don't believe to be the case), she has likely broken through that weird plateau stage that a lot of people seem to stop at. Guardian Lords, Wudang Heroes, Shaolin Monks with the exception of Du generation, Quanzhen members, etc all stay around that level with minor improvements it seems.

If she has surpassed them at a young age, I'd think she could hit the Greats level soon.

[tape]

We could put it this way: although there's no concrete evidence proving that she is, it's easier to believe that she is than she isn't.

Ahem...Dugu .