Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[PJ]

What makes them so terrifying is their "Extreme-Yin Xuan Ming Palms", which can quickly take out anyone without "9 Yang" energy. In terms of martial arts wise they are probably at ~55.

IIRC there was only one instance where Xuanming Divine Palms behaved impressively - namely striking down Yang Xiao and Wei Yixiao with 20% of poison left. But there were more instances where it wasn't as impressive, such as not being able to take out the Merit-Rewarding Elder of the Beggar Clan quickly, and IIRC *both* XM Elders couldn't take out ZZR in the last chapter within about 30 stances. Also it was said that XM Elders couldn't defeat Fan Yao within 100 stances. I think they are usually overrated based on the YX/WYX incident.

[ChanceEncounter]

Do you want to propose some levels for them? I think LCJ took place near Qing Dynasty, so it might indeed be too high.

Given the lack of any LDA feats and the relative lack of competition of the novel, I think 70-72 is a good place for Di Yun. SZJ is powerful, but Di Yun is not regarded as particularly bright and Ding Dian has relatively few feats if any, and has been captured by normal soldiers and killed by poison, where we see great level fighters as normally extremely resistant to both.

I think after having his accupoints unlocked by XDLZ, his internal energy could certainly be on great level. But the general lack of anyone else in the novel around that tier makes it hard to rank him above great level.

Dugu Qiubai said he mastered a sword without a sword. Where in all the books of Jin Yong has it been said or shown that DGQB could take out a Greats level fighter with a single tap of his sword?

If you're looking for places where Jin Yong directly states that fighter X would beat fighter Y across different novels, you're going to be looking for a long time.

By this logic, where does it state that DY can beat a Du Monk in one stance?

[CancerLuna]

1. The distance between DGQB and DFBB / DFBB and Greats are not the same.

2. I don't deny ZSF feats are extremely impressive, but he is also 17 levels above XM Elder [hence the feat]. Also it's 1v1 instead of 1v3.

3. Also, do you think RWX is weaker than XM Elder?

On a side note, I think XM Elders might be rated a bit too highly at 60, considering the Du Monks are at 62 to 65. What makes them so terrifying is their "Extreme-Yin Xuan Ming Palms", which can quickly take out anyone without "9 Yang" energy. In terms of martial arts wise they are probably at ~55.

1. I think that's the exact thing we're debating. If the gap between DGQB and DFBB is the same as the gap between DGQB and the greats, that means they're (Greats/DFBB) are on the same level.

2. The first case was against XM Elder, but you could actually put anyone there and it'd still be extremely impressive.

He literally yelled out (the other guy was able to react to his voice and tried to run) and then instantly 'teleported' to him.

The second case was against a top shaolin expert.

3. Definitely not, but DFBB also can't 1HitKO RWX. Remember, LHC lasted a couple of stances against DFBB. I doubt LHC would last 1 stance against ZSF honestly (though that's partially because ZSF is a BEAST).

[PJ]

I doubt LHC would last 1 stance against ZSF honestly (though that's partially because ZSF is a BEAST).

Zhang Sanfeng wasn't confident he could beat Ah San with Taiji. Not beat in one stance, just beat, period.

Just saying.

[WuxiaMaster]

Making slight adjustments, extra details and adding more characters to HDSD:

LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Largely capped due to his old age.
LV 77: Zhang Wu Ji (YT)

LV 70: Yang Ding Tian (YT) – Speculation. He defeated Du E 10 years prior to story.

LV 65: Du E/Du Jie/Du Nan (YT) - Range From LV65 to LV62 (Strongest To Weakest)

LV 55: Xuan Ming Elders Lu Zhang Ke/He Bi Weng (YT) – Their Xuan Ming poison palm (if connected) is particularly devastating [+5LV] against opponents without strong Yang energy.
LV 55: Kong Xiang (YT)

LV 55: Yang Xiao (YT)
LV 55: Fan Yao (YT)

LV 54: Ah Da (YT)
LV 52: Ah Er (YT)
LV 51: Ah San (YT)

LV 50: White Eagle, Yin Tian Zheng (YT)
LV 50: Green Bat, Wei Yi Xiao (YT)

4 Divine Monks of Shaolin (Jian, Wen, Zhi, Xing in terms of power)
LV 56: Kong Jian (YT) – Strongest of 4 Divine Monks. Died to Xie Xun’s trickery.
LV 52: Kong Wen (YT) – Abbot of Shaolin
LV 48: Kong Zhi (YT) – Lost to White Eagle Guardian at Battle of Bright Peak.
LV 46: Kong Xing (YT) – Practiced Dragon Claws Skill. Slayed by Ah San.

Up for debate: Are there any difference in power between the 2 envoys and guardians? I remembered the part where Yang Xiao 'fend off' green bat + 5 san ren, but it was largely due to qkdny. 1v1 wise, is YX 5 LV above White Eagle?

[CancerLuna]

Zhang Sanfeng wasn't confident he could beat Ah San with Taiji. Not beat in one stance, just beat, period.

Just saying.

Wasn't this after he was basically on his deathbed (tanking palm from shaolin guy)?

[Ken Cheng]

Wasn't this after he was basically on his deathbed (tanking palm from shaolin guy)?

He was critically wounded, but would get better.

[tape]

Making slight adjustments, extra details and adding more characters to HDSD:

LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Largely capped due to his old age.
LV 77: Zhang Wu Ji (YT)

LV 70: Yang Ding Tian (YT) – Speculation. He defeated Du E 10 years prior to story.

LV 65: Du E/Du Jie/Du Nan (YT) - Range From LV65 to LV62 (Strongest To Weakest)

LV 55: Xuan Ming Elders Lu Zhang Ke/He Bi Weng (YT) – Their Xuan Ming poison palm (if connected) is particularly devastating [+5LV] against opponents without strong Yang energy.
LV 55: Kong Xiang (YT)

LV 55: Yang Xiao (YT)
LV 55: Fan Yao (YT)

LV 54: Ah Da (YT)
LV 52: Ah Er (YT)
LV 51: Ah San (YT)

LV 50: White Eagle, Yin Tian Zheng (YT)
LV 50: Green Bat, Wei Yi Xiao (YT)

4 Divine Monks of Shaolin (Jian, Wen, Zhi, Xing in terms of power)
LV 56: Kong Jian (YT) – Strongest of 4 Divine Monks. Died to Xie Xun’s trickery.
LV 52: Kong Wen (YT) – Abbot of Shaolin
LV 48: Kong Zhi (YT) – Lost to White Eagle Guardian at Battle of Bright Peak.
LV 46: Kong Xing (YT) – Practiced Dragon Claws Skill. Slayed by Ah San.

Up for debate: Are there any difference in power between the 2 envoys and guardians? I remembered the part where Yang Xiao 'fend off' green bat + 5 san ren, but it was largely due to qkdny. 1v1 wise, is YX 5 LV above White Eagle?

I think the separation of these characters isn't really necessary as they are more or less on the same level -- for example why is there a difference between any of the Kong monks (except Kong Jian)? I don't remember anything notable that would have one at 46, one at 48, and one at 52. Did Kong Zhi lose to White Eagle? I don't think there was a fight but was mentioned in passing that White Eagle had already fought a few opponents, but that could have ended in a draw and not a victory. White Eagle was staking his life for the sect while there were tons of experts to continuously go, so it's very likely the righteous side were satisfied enough with draws to weaken the opponent. Kong Xing was killed by Ah Da, the circumstances were probably quite murky as well. I don't remember Kong Wen ever fighting.

White Eagle, Yang Xiao and Fan Yao are thought by Wuji to be on the same level. Ah San, Ah Er, and Ah Da all seem to be experts, just in different fields, and all seem about as powerful as the previous three as well. If anything, Ah Er seemed least impressive because he competed in Wuji with inner strength and got blown to smithreens in one blow, while Ah San put him on the back foot with great external techniques and Ah Da's sword techniques. The rankings of their names don't necessarily coincide with martial
arts level.

I'd just lump everyone but Wei Yixiao in one level, lowering him into whoever is in the next tier and bumping the Xuan Ming Elders slightly above, as it's confirmed they're the best fighters in ZM's entourage (above the Ah's by default), and Fan Yao admitting he is inferior even if only slightly.

[PJ]

Kong Xing was killed by Ah Da

Minor correction: it was Ah San who did the deed.

[_Kenny_]

WuxiaMaster, ZWJ is listed at level 68 after learning QKDNY and about to fight the 6 righteous sects and you have Yang Ding Tian listed at level 70. May I suggest that you reverse the order and have ZWJ at that stage level 70 and Yang Ding Tian level 68? My reasoning is that Yang Ding Tian only managed to get to the 4th level of QKDNY after practicing it for years, thus having far lower inner energy levels, whereas ZWJ reached level 7 of it within a few hours. Then you add in his 9 Yang inner energy level and he should be higher than Yang Ding Tian by that point.

[ThirdWayMonk]

You have the names reversed. DY is the protagonist that ultimately surpassed DD.

Do we have any actual feats or narrative comparisons that would put them at this level?

Absolutely.

Heavenly Glow Sutra internal is able to bring someone back to life one full hour after they have stopped breathing. This is is the most impressive internal energy feat in any Jin Yong novel in my opinion.

Saying that SZJ is a top level internal art does not really say anything, since a lot of practitioners of said top tier internal arts are not at 80+.

As a protagonist, though, DY would have been on screen long enough for us to see some feats that would indicate his ability. Are there any particular ones that would justify placing him at well above great level?

I still think the LCJ fighters are ranked a bit too high. I can't recall any specific feats of theirs that would warrant such a high ranking. There were very few notable LDAs in the novel, and if we subscribe to the deterioration theory, their story takes place quite late in the timeline.

What internal feats from Condor Trio or even DGSD can be said to match bringing someone back to life one hour after they have died?

[PJ]

Heavenly Glow Sutra internal is able to bring someone back to life one full hour after they have stopped breathing.

Unless I'm mistaken, it was less than half an hour. Taken from this thread:

那疯汉笑道：“你已气绝了小半个时辰，若不是我用独门功夫相救，天下再没第二个人救得。”

The crazy man [Ding Dian] chuckled: "You had stopped breathing for a small fraction of an hour. Had I not used my special kung fu, there's not another person who could have saved you."

A small fraction of an hour should be between 10 to 20 minutes; any less than that he would have just said "several minutes." Let's take the middle route of 15 minutes.

This is is the most impressive internal energy feat in any Jin Yong novel in my opinion.

What internal feats from Condor Trio or even DGSD can be said to match bringing someone back to life one hour after they have died?

It's likely a unique attribute of the art. There are other arts with seemingly impressive unique attributes, such as melting metals, that we don't really see in other novels. It's better to look at the overall feats produced by the art.

[FeilongZ]

Hello all,
I have been reading the Wuxia forums for the past few years, and this is the first time I post.
Keep up the good work and keep the discussion alive!

[FeilongZ]

WuxiaMaster,
What level do you think post 16 Yang Guo will be with the HIS?
Thanks

[ThirdWayMonk]

Unless I'm mistaken, it was less than half an hour. Taken from this thread:

那疯汉笑道：“你已气绝了小半个时辰，若不是我用独门功夫相救，天下再没第二个人救得。”

The crazy man [Ding Dian] chuckled: "You had stopped breathing for a small fraction of an hour. Had I not used my special kung fu, there's not another person who could have saved you."

A small fraction of an hour should be between 10 to 20 minutes; any less than that he would have just said "several minutes." Let's take the middle route of 15 minutes.
.

Very weird translation. Here is the one I have read:

"The lunatic laughed: "You stopped breathing for over an hour. If I had not used my special martial arts technique, under heaven this is no second person who can save you."


pg.87
http://wuxiasociety.com/download/a-deadly-secret-epub/

Its a far more logical translation than yours as no one speaks in phrase like "small fraction of an hour". I fear you are using google translate and not getting an accurate translation.

[WuxiaMaster]

WuxiaMaster, ZWJ is listed at level 68 after learning QKDNY and about to fight the 6 righteous sects and you have Yang Ding Tian listed at level 70. May I suggest that you reverse the order and have ZWJ at that stage level 70 and Yang Ding Tian level 68? My reasoning is that Yang Ding Tian only managed to get to the 4th level of QKDNY after practicing it for years, thus having far lower inner energy levels, whereas ZWJ reached level 7 of it within a few hours. Then you add in his 9 Yang inner energy level and he should be higher than Yang Ding Tian by that point.

That's worth considering but IMO, ZWJ is still a totally noob at combat at that point. He's like Xu Zhu - internal powerhouse but lacks battle experience. Hence I still think YDT should be slightly better (at least before the battle is over). Of course this is all speculation.

WuxiaMaster,
What level do you think post 16 Yang Guo will be with the HIS?
Thanks

There's really no way to tell, although personally I don't think it would be much stronger than Sad Palms at his saddest.

[Ken Cheng]

There's really no way to tell, although personally I don't think it would be much stronger than Sad Palms at his saddest.

Yeah...it never made sense to me that Yeung Gor would find an uber-technique with Heavy Iron Sword, and then voluntarily "downgrade" to an "inferior" Sad Palms technique. It wouldn't make any sense to do that.

[tape]

Yeah...it never made sense to me that Yeung Gor would find an uber-technique with Heavy Iron Sword, and then voluntarily "downgrade" to an "inferior" Sad Palms technique. It wouldn't make any sense to do that.

The sword is like 100 pounds and he never needed it, it's not unreasonable to not lug the thing around everywhere; he regretted not bringing it, which means he knows he's better with it than without it. Pre-16 YG not bringing it everywhere would be silly, but after he invented Sad Palms there's very few people that he it'd come in useful for since he can beat them barehanded anyway.

Ouyang Feng doesn't bring his snake staff with him most times as shown in LOCH where he threatened Guo Jing that next time he would come back with it next time. I doubt Miejue brings the Heaven Sword with her everywhere she goes. It's pretty normal to not carry your best weapon once you're confident in your abilities.

[FeilongZ]

I think the HIS is useful when fighting powerful opponents like Fawang with his wheels (weapons). Otherwise, sad palms with its weird, difficult to predict stances will be very effective against unarmed opponents

[FeilongZ]

Anyone here think Yang Guo has a good chance defeating DFBB with HIS?