Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[WuxiaMaster]

Another point just came to me: We need to consider exceptional cases that sometimes a character just have extraordinary defensive techniques.

Best example: Duan Yu could be, say LV10, after learning LBWB. However, LV40 Yue Lao San can't hit him at all. And I would say even LV80 XF can't hit him. (Yes. LV80 XF cannot 1-hit KO or defeat a LV10 Duan Yu within 10 blows).

Are we going to argue that their difference is less than 20LVs because of this? Obviously no. In this case, the better way to read it would be: DY have zero chance of defeating XF at that point in the novel.

The skills YingGu practiced have some "defensive properties" too, so it doesn't mean that her difference with Fawang is less than 20.

[Snafu3721]

No arguing that

I was perhaps getting a bit heated and emotional when I made my comment about the level difference and the chart. I understand the subtle nuiances, but was quick to submit

Otherwise I wouldn't be spending the time now trying to build arguments around the rankings =)

[WuxiaMaster]

Now given that Miejue is already top tiered in HSDS. There were only a few handful of people stronger, such as XM elders. But each of those would get 1 hit KO'd by ZSF

As an analogy and idea:

Miejue ~ ZLC (top leaders)
FZ/RWX ~ XM Elders (almost no equal other than Elites of) their genre
LHC I think ranges depending upon opponents and circumstance. He was still lacking in internal hence the struggles against Chonxu and ZLC later on. He was not able to read FangZheng's "formless" palms so might not be able to fight a FZ.

DFBB was seriously dominating these guys, so I can't argue too much on their disparity. I might not be able to provide enough arguments, and probably don't have time to dig up all old quotes =P. I can just say that I think he's around 78... but at 80 it is reasonable.

let me know your thoughts

Hmm... I am not sure if MieJue could be considered top tier in HSDS. She's certainly top among the 'righteous' sects. Character levels in HSDS are generally much more spread out. IMO:

Most of other leaders < Mie Jue < Yang Xiao / Fan Yao < XM Elder <<<<<< ZWJ/ZSF

I think the big 'issue' with SPW is there are 2 extremely significant gaps - LHC and rest of Wulin, and then DFBB with LHC.

To compare with HSDS above, it's something like:

4 Mountain Leaders <<<<<< ZLC < LHC/RWX <<<<<< DFBB

LHC is the biggest "problem" here because he technically pwn the entire wulin (not just 1v1, but against groups of 'experts', and often in 1 stance.) after learning DG9J.

There is this part where YBQ and gang were escaping from Huashan and were attacked by assassins. I forgot the exact numbers, but I think YBQ wife took on ~2, and YBQ took on ~3 or 4 of them. They were losing (cause the rest of the Huashan disciples are useless)

And then, LHC, in a SEVERELY weakened state, blinded all (9?) of the assassins in 1 stance.

My opinion: Let's say the assassins are around high 20s (we estimate this from YBQ). LHC must be at least high 50s to 60 at this point to do this. This is still very early in the novel.

Later on, he improved quite a bit further (cleared up his internal issues, became more proficient in DG9J, etc) before meeting DFBB. And he still got crushed badly by DFBB.

[Snafu3721]

The Assasin feat has been debated to death =P
Can't argue that one logically. It's just one of those things that must be accepted from a weak LHC with no internal and just swinging around.

I think that one is one of those rare feats where when think about it, even way more powerful people can't pull off.

Another one to draw comparison is QCJ holding up an enormous incense cauldron early in LOCH. Which some members analyzed to weigh 800-1200 jins. He was holding it with one hand and just toying with it as if it weighed nothing. But few stronger pugilists can replicate or even scale up that feat.


Purely own bias: I never got the impression LHC was very strong when I read the story even with his feats. Maybe it has to do with the emphasis on swords and techniques. It just changed the rules of the engagement. Feats were no longer "I can stand on a small tree branch in the wind and not be heard or seen" to "I have learned this one skill and by using this angle I blind 10 guys". It changed the rules of engagement I guess...maybe because at lower tiers, swords are much more dangerous than bare fists.

It was like the only way to beat LHC was either being MASSIVE lvls above him or Roaring him to death.

_______

I can agree with the below

4 Mountain Leaders <<<<<< ZLC < LHC/RWX <<<<<< DFBB


But it was similar for ROCH or HSDS:

QZ7<<<<<<<<<<<<<<OYK/Early GJ<MCF<<<<<<<<<Greats
Wudang 7<<<<Miejue<<<YX<<<<XM<<<<<<<<<<<<<ZSF

And although I belong to the camp that thinks RWX is at best LOCH Great, I can accept that there is room for interpretation and we can scale up aspects of SPW. But DFBB at 85 seems a bit high considering the old polls in this forum are a 65-35% rating in favor that XF would beat DFBB. Not saying that the poll results are irrefutable fact... but for a comprehensive list, I feel that some majority consensus should be an indicator

[ChanceEncounter]

I am not selectively choosing. I have already said that I am willing to accept that there is no deterioration. But since we can't say that any of the sect leaders improved or gotten worse, we can assume they are around the same tier as previous generations as there is no irrefutable argument of the opposite.

Which is not something you can assume, no. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Secondly, there's no reason to assume that the peak of Wulin just spontaneously dropped off for no discernible reason. Thus, if a figure is then regarded as one of the very best in all of Wulin, it's worth considering that he must therefore be an exceptional talent (after all, it's individual talent that rises to the very top), and take it as evidence that he may be stronger than the 'run of the mill' figure in a similar position. Add in that this is also very true to life—as there's plenty of cases where clubs/franchises/teams/schools go through periods of relative strength and relative weakness—and that argument becomes even harder to sustain.

In other words, it's very incomplete and rather disingenuous to just claim that the elite figures in all of Wulin are definitely much weaker to keep in line with the idea that sect leaders must be on the same level even if they are many, many generations apart.

[Snafu3721]

@ChanceEncounter

I can make the same argument for you if there are no solid evidence of feats or otherwise presented. Which is why I am using a baseline of saying that major sects remains relative static.

I agree it's like life, but there will always be a few large franchises/teams/schools that are on top and stay relatively so.
Harvard has been Harvard, Coca-Cola is Coca Cola, Exon is Exon.

It like business...
-There are always a few top companies and at some point, their growth and deterioration doesn't move much. These are like the major sects
-Now smaller companies tend to have bigger movements in terms of valuation. These are the newer ones like Wudang or QZ when they first started
-There will always be talent, a new company that rises to the top. This is like ZSF or WCY
-And there will be some fluctuations at the big companies, but overall it is relative consistent with the overall economy. Big sects usually stay around while smaller sects come and go... and this has to do with the overall martial arts of the era. Until a point when the economy completely sucks and the martial world crumbles

There is always going to be a baseline. And so we have to draw what we can between the period of HSDS and SPW. We have to make some assumptions, unless you give me facts. Otherwise, we truly are just running in circles.

So unless there is specific evidence that Elite figures in SPW are DEFINITELY better so as to not keep them in line with idea that sect leaders are roughly equal, then please provide. Otherwise, if i jumped in a time machine and moved forward 50 years... and someone tells me "have you heard of this new Tech company that's AMAZING!!".. I'm going to use Google as my baseline

[_Kenny_]

I would say the general consensus right now among active members is that DFBB is properly ranked as is the rest of the SPW characters. The ones that believe so have given their reasons and imo, pretty logical ones. Maybe 11 or 12 years ago on this forum it wasn't so, but then again this in depth ranking did not exist back then. Some of the links provided a few pages back had threads that were around 2004 and 2005.

So, Snafu since you say that you're not going by the deterioration martial arts theory of why you think SPW characters should all be ranked lower, you're going by what the general consensus believed over a decade ago? Because you keep on bringing up what the general consensus thought back then.

[pannonian]

The thing is, barring Xixing Dafa (which can be neutralised), does Ren Woxing show anything which Xie Xun and Fan Yao can't do? He's enough of a master with the sword to get the respect of Linghu Chong and (via the narrator) Dugu Qiubai, but Fan Yao is also an expert and loremaster of sword skills, IIRC going through numerous different techniques during his fight with Zhang Wuji. Xie Xun, whose Lion's Roar is if anything even more damaging than RWX's shout, was shown as all-powerful in the early HSDS, prompting Zhang Cuishan to compare him with Zhang Sanfeng. Yet they pale when compared with someone whom we know is definitely Great calibre.

[ChanceEncounter]

I can make the same argument for you if there are no solid evidence of feats or otherwise presented. Which is why I am using a baseline of saying that major sects remains relative static.

I agree it's like life, but there will always be a few large franchises/teams/schools that are on top and stay relatively so.
Harvard has been Harvard, Coca-Cola is Coca Cola, Exon is Exon.

Because, again, you have offered no evidence or reasoning for why the top end of Wulin would have just spontaneously dropped off. FZ in XAJH is one of the very, very top figures in Wulin. These figures, by definition, are exceptional individual talents. You don't get to the pinnacle of martial arts by accident. There has to be some quality about you, some circumstance, some talent which is exceptional.

Like I said, it's disingenuous when you subscribe to one particular logical 'baseline' but not the other. You say that 'sects remain roughly similar', but completely ignore how the claim that 'the elite level remains roughly similar' relies on effectively the same fundamental logic. The elite represent the kind of fundamental limit that a normal human can attain. Hence whey there's fan theories of the 'great plateau' and how difficulty it is to overcome this level (stated at around level 70-75 in this rating system). There's no reason to believe that, with access to similar tier of skills, that this plateau just spontaneously shifted 10-15 units down.

Your logic depends upon exceptional talents trending towards the mean. Which is not an apples to apples comparison. Exceptional talents should trend towards the exceptional talent. You don't compare the 99th percentile to the 50th percentile. You compare the 99th percentile to the 99th percentile. There's 72 great arts, and Shaolin is a school operated primarily under buddhist philosophies (with buddhist virtues paramount in selecting leaders), so there's no reason to believe that all of the abbots, with differing backgrounds and disparate martial skillsets should all be clustered together simply by virtue of them being abbots.

I'm not someone who likes to chase around their tail in these kinds of 'debates' (quoted because a refusal to address rebuttals makes it no longer a debate), so if you can explain why the XAJH 'elite tier' peak would inexplicably be much lower, feel free. The ratings already take into account that they may not be as high as the Condor Hero peak, as FZ is ranked 72 instead of 75+. There's really very little evidence as to why someone like him would be weaker than say... QQR.

[Ken Cheng]

SMILING PROUD WANDERER is quite a brilliant wuxia story in of itself, and some even claim it to be Jin Yong's best story. One thing about SPW, though: in terms of martial arts and general presentation, it just doesn't fit comfortably on a shelf with the rest of the Jin Yong canon. If you took away SPW and looked at just DGSD, the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, and most of the rest of the canon (excluding the story of Ah Qing, which like SPW, also doesn't fit comfortably with the rest of the canon), it all kind of works out. SPW throws a monkey wrench into everything, and always has.

[Snafu3721]

I would say the general consensus right now among active members is that DFBB is properly ranked as is the rest of the SPW characters. The ones that believe so have given their reasons and imo, pretty logical ones. Maybe 11 or 12 years ago on this forum it wasn't so, but then again this in depth ranking did not exist back then. Some of the links provided a few pages back had threads that were around 2004 and 2005.

So, Snafu since you say that you're not going by the deterioration martial arts theory of why you think SPW characters should all be ranked lower, you're going by what the general consensus believed over a decade ago? Because you keep on bringing up what the general consensus thought back then.

Individually as readers, we can ascribe whatever we want in out minds to whatever level and whoever.
But just saying that since this is comprehensive chart, I was using older arguments/polls as a reference for this forum
I did state that ideas may have changed and since I agreed with the older arguments, I'm hoping to get new input. Some debates have changed my mind in the past because it shed new light on something I completely missed or didn't think about.

[Snafu3721]

@ChanceEncounter

Let me see if I can summarize this correctly

You think I'm using a faulty baseline... because I'm using a general mean regarding major sects. Which there is have been no evidence provided for or against this argument. Although I personally think that unless something dramatic happens, the mean usually doesn't move much which is why it's the mean.

Now, given that in Wulin, most set leaders were usually the cream of the crop top 10%... why would I be "downgrading" Fangzheng if I had put him within the mean of major sect leaders? We don't know if he's exceptional relative to any other major sect leader, or any other abbots. But by accepting that he's top tiered isn't unreasonable

Then there is FQY's statement that LHC will require 20 years before he is able to face a true Elite. We can interpret this a few ways-- if we accept that Fangzheng isn't an elite, it means LHC's level difference isn't too wide and makes sense since LHC seemed to be catching up/or already reached "top tier"-- or we accept that Fangzheng is Elite ad that LHC's level is actually 20 years behind, which means LHC should be many levels lower than RWX/Fangzheng

Any then, since you claim you don't want to chase your trail and provide rebuttals, then we're basing these arguments on our opinions. That is something I can't say is wrong or right

But to address why FZ shouldn't be lower than 72 and weaker than QQR: I think herein lies the discrepancy.
I think we need separate definitions when addressing the best tiers. We have the Elite which is usually top 1%, and then we have the Top tiers which is 5%, then we have well respected/feared top 10%

The difference between 1% and 5% can be HUGE... there is really no upper limit. So I am not against saying that within SPW, DFBB is just MASSIVELY better than the next tier. But it was similar in LOCH where the Greats were just leagues ahead of the next best thing.

Anyways, perhaps this is where our difference lie (lay?)- When I read SPW and come across 5 mountains, I immediately think these guys are just important story fodder (way below 10%) like a ZZR, 3 of the 4 evils, DZC or ZCS. Then comes the stronger fellows like ZLC and I think top 10% like XX, DYQ/DZM (where you know they are powerful as hell, but will run into someone that is just way better). Then you reach 5% where you meet RWX and FZ and it's the same feeling I got to YangXiao/XM elders, MCF, JMZ... And inevitably you bump into the top 1% which just blows this all out of the water. Occasionally you'l run into th 0.1% god like figure

I read the SPW book, because there is no evidence I've come across yet, and I thought FZ, RWX are just 5% folk and DFBB is the usual 1% . Given how I'm saying that Jianghu is relatively constant, DFBB is around lvl 75-80. And since we can only compare some things cross novel, DFBB has not given me an impression that he'd be way better than ROCH or DGSG elites... thus not earning the 85

[WuxiaMaster]

If we assume the "General Wulin" level is roughly consistent, we can also look at DFBB as a "sweeper" level character (in SPW).

Assuming that:
General Wulin: Leaders of small sects, seasoned pugilists, etc...
Great: Very peak of Wulin. Can destroy anyone from General Wulin.

-----

In DGSD, we have 4 vicious/murong followers/dali servants etc, as the general wulin.
The Greats, at ~LV80, can dominate all of these guys.

And then Sweeper, the lone outlier came and one-tap Great-level guys.

-----

In XKX, we have Zhang San/Li Si - 2 persons who can take out entire sects by themselves. Their masters must certainly be Great Levels.

And then SPT (LV90) transcended to god and "sweeper-ed" the 2 Masters.

-----

Similarly in SPW, the Greats are FZ/LHC/RWX (LV70) who can dominate the general Wulin (4 mountain leaders), yet got sweeped by a single outlier, DFBB (LV85).

-----

Condor Trilogy is one where there are no sweeper type characters. The Greats are at 75~78 range and there are no entity beyond that.

Imagine if Sweeper appear and one tap the 4 Greats to death. Yes, it's inconceivable in Condor Trilogy setting, but suppose such a character exist in Condor Trilogy - are we going to move down all the Great Levels because they are no longer "Great"?

I feel that what we're attempting to do right now is lowering SPW greats in order to fit in the outlier, "sweeper" DFBB.

[Snafu3721]

No argument to that logic that there could be an outlier so godly. This purely depends if one believes DFBB to be a sweeper monk level.

Given his performance, he's not quite there. As I've presented before.

Even if we were to say that XWT,RWX,LHC were elites... They actually put up a fight with DFBB. In fact, many stances.

Sweeper just totally dominates. He dominates the next tier elites so badly by way of one tap on a perfect defense stance. He tanks the most powerful blows...That would be like if dfbb flicked LHC's sword and the sword broke and flew out of his hands.

If we accept that RWX, etc were just top 5%, we don't need DFBB to be sweeper. We just need him to be slightly better than Greats.

ZWJ was essentially fighting the the top 5% constantly by himself and did ok once he got serious. If DFBB is better than ZWJ, it would still make sense

[Snafu3721]

Just adding random comparison.

Does what DFBB do in the novel really amaze more than what the XY elders did?

I would like to hear people's opinions

[ChanceEncounter]

Let me see if I can summarize this correctly

You think I'm using a faulty baseline... because I'm using a general mean regarding major sects. Which there is have been no evidence provided for or against this argument. Although I personally think that unless something dramatic happens, the mean usually doesn't move much which is why it's the mean.

Now, given that in Wulin, most set leaders were usually the cream of the crop top 10%... why would I be "downgrading" Fangzheng if I had put him within the mean of major sect leaders? We don't know if he's exceptional relative to any other major sect leader, or any other abbots. But by accepting that he's top tiered isn't unreasonable

Because we don't actually know the "mean" given the small sample. We know how many Shaolin abbots? 5? 6? There's been dozens if not hundreds of Abbots in Shaolin history. On the other hand, when the book says someone is "matchless" and at the zenith of Wulin, that in and of itself is evidence that he's "extraordinary", and his individual talent is probably greater than the "mean".

In other words, your logic is essentially thus: The top of a sect should be roughly the same level as other tops of the sect.

The counterpoint is thus: The top of Wulin should be roughly the same level as the other tops of Wulin.

The latter argument is actually more likely to be true, because Wulin is a MUCH larger demographic than the population of any given sect, which can vary hugely. The very best figure in a given sect can vary hugely for any number of reasons. But short of a large scale change to the climate of all of Wulin, there's no reason to believe that all of Wulin would produce inferior heroes. It's the same difference when people are arguing climate vs weather. Weather can vary day-to-day or even hour-to-hour. A change in climate, however, requires a larger explanation. Why is this? Simple. Sample size.

Then there is FQY's statement that LHC will require 20 years before he is able to face a true Elite. We can interpret this a few ways-- if we accept that Fangzheng isn't an elite, it means LHC's level difference isn't too wide and makes sense since LHC seemed to be catching up/or already reached "top tier"-- or we accept that Fangzheng is Elite ad that LHC's level is actually 20 years behind, which means LHC should be many levels lower than RWX/Fangzheng

Any then, since you claim you don't want to chase your trail and provide rebuttals, then we're basing these arguments on our opinions. That is something I can't say is wrong or right

FQY's assessment of a "true elite" may well be like Sweeper Monk's assessment of "enlightenment" or "understanding". By Sweeper Monk's definition, none of the other Shaolin figures managed to reach it either. And certainly not XYS or MRB—who, despite using Shaolin arts at a very high level, do not come close to actually understanding the martial arts text themselves.

This is likely because actual "understanding" of something like the 72 peak skills in Shaolin, or a Taoist axiom ability like DG9J requires an extreme level of actual philosophical understanding and enlightenment. And that's not likely to be accomplished within a short timespan no matter how gifted you are at mimicking the actual stances themselves. Philosophical enlightenment largely can only be obtained through life experience and wisdom. It's just like how LHC had his epiphany that, "hey, just because I know this particular Hua Shan stance has a means of being broken, doesn't mean I should never use it." It's probably all of these little epiphanies and breakthroughs that add up to become a true elite.

Also keep in mind that, the individual differences in ratings themselves are not static. It's why the ROCH greats are rated 75 and yet they're 70 in LOCH, even though the end of ROCH is something like 37 years after the end of LOCH. In other words, it took 37 years for the greats in LOCH to gain 5 points in this rating. So LHC being "20 years" behind the true elites is not really that far-fetched.

Also keep in mind that RWX considered FQY's swordsmanship to be superior to his, so it's possible that FQY did not even include RWX in the "true elite" category, but rather figures like DFBB.

But to address why FZ shouldn't be lower than 72 and weaker than QQR: I think herein lies the discrepancy.
I think we need separate definitions when addressing the best tiers. We have the Elite which is usually top 1%, and then we have the Top tiers which is 5%, then we have well respected/feared top 10%

The difference between 1% and 5% can be HUGE... there is really no upper limit. So I am not against saying that within SPW, DFBB is just MASSIVELY better than the next tier. But it was similar in LOCH where the Greats were just leagues ahead of the next best thing.

Anyways, perhaps this is where our difference lie (lay?)- When I read SPW and come across 5 mountains, I immediately think these guys are just important story fodder (way below 10%) like a ZZR, 3 of the 4 evils, DZC or ZCS. Then comes the stronger fellows like ZLC and I think top 10% like XX, DYQ/DZM (where you know they are powerful as hell, but will run into someone that is just way better). Then you reach 5% where you meet RWX and FZ and it's the same feeling I got to YangXiao/XM elders, MCF, JMZ... And inevitably you bump into the top 1% which just blows this all out of the water. Occasionally you'l run into th 0.1% god like figure

I read the SPW book, because there is no evidence I've come across yet, and I thought FZ, RWX are just 5% folk and DFBB is the usual 1% . Given how I'm saying that Jianghu is relatively constant, DFBB is around lvl 75-80. And since we can only compare some things cross novel, DFBB has not given me an impression that he'd be way better than ROCH or DGSG elites... thus not earning the 85

DFBB is universally regarded as #1 under heaven. He's not your "usual 1%". More like he's your 0.0001%. He's like the WCY of the XAJH story, only WCY took 7 days to convince people he's marginally better than them, while DFBB simultaneously took on 3 of the better fighters in the novel and was still had the upperhand despite not having a proper weapon.

I think saying that FZ is really the "5%" instead of the 1% demands a bit more evidence. You wouldn't call someone in the 95th percentile as matchless. You would probably call someone in the 99th percentile matchless. Nowhere in the novel does it allude to, or depict, anyone that's stronger than FZ, except #1 under heaven DFBB.

Now is it possible there's this top 5% tucked in some corner of Jianghu that just never showed themselves during the entire book? Sure, certainly. But that's literally complete speculation that can be applied to just about any story. Maybe there was some hermit somewhere in LOCH that could literally beat all of the Greats + WCY + ZBT at the same time but was too busy tending to his herb garden and writing poetry to show up in the novel. But this is utterly speculative given the evidence we have, and the scope of the novel itself.

[WuxiaMaster]

New Patch: 13th Jul 2016

New Characters:
(I'm just throwing these guys in base off the top of my head from earlier requests. Please feel free to give more precise LV if you have any idea.)
LV 20: Song Qing Shu
LV 25: Yin Su Su
LV 25: Zhao Min, Zhu'er
LV 32: Lao De Nuo
LV 40: Dali 4 Servants
LV 45: Feng Bu Ping

Adjusted:
LV 45: Plum Manor 4 Friends of JiangNan (LV40, 42, 48, 50)

Updated LV Guidelines description for greater clarity:
Note: There is NO CHANGE in criteria for the level difference from earlier. I'm just elaborating a bit more rather than the vague/one-sided "can kill in 1 blow" text earlier.

1 Lv Difference - The difference is minuscule and A is only perceived to be very slightly stronger. In a fight to death, either of them may win, or possibly both may perish.

Example: Yang Guo VS Zhou Bo Tong

2, 3 LV Difference - The difference is still extremely narrow. A would probably win, but only after an extremely long and arduous battle (possibly >1000+ exchange). It would take a lot out of A (exhaust all his energy/stamina) to win this battle.

Example: Yang Guo/Guo Jing VS The 4 Greats, 4 Greats VS Qiu Qian Ren

5 LV Difference - The difference is wide enough now that A would most definitely win, provided A fight seriously and not let down his guard. B can still give a very good challenge.

Example: LOCH Great vs LOCH Guo Jing

10 LV Difference - At this point, A should be able to defeat B with relatively ease (likely within 100 exchange). There is almost no chance of B winning. However, A still need to exhaust considerable attention/energy/stamina to deal with B.

Example: White Eagle Guardian against the righteous leaders one after another, Li Mo Chou vs Early Yang Guo

15 LV Difference - Similar to a 10LV difference, but now A would be able to defeat B with even less effort and likely much quicker (within 50 exchange). There is no conceivable chance of B ever winning.

Example: DFBB vs LHC

20 LV Difference, and Beyond - Depending on the martial arts used, it's possible for A to defeat B in one hit, or within several blows. B has no chance of winning. Beyond this point there should be no noticeable difference in the fight - it would just mean that A would need to utilize less percent of his power to win.

Example: Z3F vs Xuan Ming Elder, XF vs DCQ, HYS vs QZ Elder, etc...

[Ken Cheng]

We need to rank Great Evils # 2, 3, and 4 from DGSD.

[tape]

Going by this new criteria, Yang Xiao/Fan Yao are ranked too high or the other lords too low. There is not a 5 level difference in power between them and the rest of the guardians, and definitely not a 10 level between them and Granny Gold Flower. They would be slight favorites, but are definitely not locks to win. Also do not think end of novel Wudang heroes are 10 levels below them either.

Song Qingshu is ranked too low as well. He was quite famous in the wulin world and was probably the top talent of his generation before Wuji appeared. Can't imagine him being weaker than even post 16 years Wu brothers due to his talent and intellect.

I think the characters of Shi Qing, Min Rou, ,Bai Wan Jian, Ding Bu Si and Ding Bu San are a bit too high at 45/50 as well -- nothing gives me the impression they are as strong as ROCH Qiu Chuji who has beem "dominating" wulin for decades outside of the Greats.

[WuxiaMaster]

We need to rank Great Evils # 2, 3, and 4 from DGSD.

3 Great Evils were in all along - right from the creation of this chart.

Going by this new criteria, Yang Xiao/Fan Yao are ranked too high or the other lords too low. There is not a 5 level difference in power between them and the rest of the guardians, and definitely not a 10 level between them and Granny Gold Flower. They would be slight favorites, but are definitely not locks to win. Also do not think end of novel Wudang heroes are 10 levels below them either.


Song Qingshu is ranked too low as well. He was quite famous in the wulin world and was probably the top talent of his generation before Wuji appeared. Can't imagine him being weaker than even post 16 years Wu brothers due to his talent and intellect.


I think the characters of Shi Qing, Min Rou, ,Bai Wan Jian, Ding Bu Si and Ding Bu San are a bit too high at 45/50 as well -- nothing gives me the impression they are as strong as ROCH Qiu Chuji who has beem "dominating" wulin for decades outside of the Greats.

Just want to clarify that this is no 'new criteria'. I just added in a little more text to elaborate, and hopefully achieve more flexibility (open more perspective) rather than the rigid "10 LV diff, must kill within 100 blows" impression it was giving previously.

I do think that the mid to lower tier (LV50s and below) are not as precise as we hope. (it's not hard to see why, most of the debates are focus on the great levels). Let's get more input on these guys.

For the last point, I always thought these guys were among the higher league of Wulin. If we exclude Zhang 3 Li 4 (who doesn't even live on Central Plains), and consider Xie Yan Ke/Bai Zi Zai as the 'best in wulin', these guys you mention are 'second best'.