Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[PJ]

Very weird translation. Here is the one I have read:

"The lunatic laughed: "You stopped breathing for over an hour. If I had not used my special martial arts technique, under heaven this is no second person who can save you."


pg.87
http://wuxiasociety.com/download/a-deadly-secret-epub/

That translation is wrong.

Its a far more logical translation than yours as no one speaks in phrase like "small fraction of an hour". I fear you are using google translate and not getting an accurate translation.

Except that's exactly what Ding Dian said in Chinese.

[_Kenny_]

That's worth considering but IMO, ZWJ is still a totally noob at combat at that point. He's like Xu Zhu - internal powerhouse but lacks battle experience. Hence I still think YDT should be slightly better (at least before the battle is over). Of course this is all speculation.

I was just reading HSDS again and boy you are right. ZWJ is such a crappy fighter because he lacks the battle experience. I just got done reading the part where he was fighting the 3 Persian fighters and even though he had all of the advantages in power, speed, internal power, he was getting beat up pretty bad.

[Golgo 13]

Great ranking system! But here are my 2 cents-

IMO, Z3F is legendary level, on par with Sweeper and Demonic Swordsman.

And for me, only GJ and YG have reached lvl 90. I feel that XZ, DY, and SPT's inexperience and naivete prevents them from reaching this level.

Below GJ and YG, I have the rest of the ROCH Greats at around lvl 85.

Lastly, I personally have XF, XZ, and DY at lvl 80, so slightly below the Greats.

As for the Xiao Yao Elders, I'm not sure where they rank because we've never really seen TSTL or LQS fight anyone outside of themselves........

Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[WuxiaMaster]

Let's start something - How strong were the 4 Greats during the 1st Mount Hua?

From the current chart, Yang Guo ranks at LV42 pre Heavy Iron Sword, and Huang Yao Shi mentioned he did not reached YG lv until he is 30 years old.

Timeline wise, The 4 Greats were only in their mid 30s at the First Mt Hua.

If we were to speculate the 4 Greats LV then, where would they be?

Keep in mind that at that point, they already earned their names and were recognized as the strongest in Wulin.

---

For further debate: Personally, I find that is an 'unbelievable' statement. While the guys at LV40s are no scrub, let's look at who we have in that league:

- LOCH QZ 7 Disciples
- Daerba, Huo Du
- 3 of the 4 Evils
- 4 of the 5 Mountain Sect Leaders

Do you guys believe Huang Yao Shi, at age 30, is at this LV? It's hard to imagine how he can progress from this lv to "top 5 in wulin" within the next 5 years. I'll think he would already be this powerful at age 18.

[_Kenny_]

I'm thinking the 4 Greats were probably around early level 50-55 at the first Hua Shan tournament and twenty years later at the 2nd tournament they have reached level 70, so it's possible. Being at a level 50 is already extremely powerful and within the top 1% of Wulin already and rarely meets their match.

Take a look at Li Mo Chou who was ranked at level 48 and she was killing people left and right and barely met anyone that could match up with her. Li Mo Chou was in her late 30s to early 40s? And while Li Mo Chou is talented, I'm guessing she's not quite the martial arts geniuses that were like the 4 Greats.

So if the 4 Greats were at level 42 at 30 years old, who is to say that they weren't around level 50-55 in their mid to late 30s?


I'm thinking something along this line at the 1st Hua Shan Tournament:

Lin Chao Ying-level 60 (since it was said that she was slightly better than her lover) this would probably needs to change from lvl 70

Wang Chong Yang-level 58 (since he is slightly stronger than the 4 Greats)

4 Greats-level 55

[Ken Cheng]

Lin Chao Ying-level 60 (since it was said that she was slightly better than her lover) this would probably needs to change from lvl 70

Lam Chiu Ying was NOT better than Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung (I must give credit to the Ancient Tomb Sect's Propaganda Division; over the years, they've successfully perpetuated the myth of their supposed invincibility throughout fandom). While it is true that she invented a system of martial arts that stymies the Cheun Jen Sect martial arts invented by Wong Chung Yeung, in PERSONAL COMBAT, she would not be able to defeat him (and he, likewise, would not be able to defeat her).

[tape]

Lam Chiu Ying was NOT better than Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung (I must give credit to the Ancient Tomb Sect's Propaganda Division; over the years, they've successfully perpetuated the myth of their supposed invincibility throughout fandom). While it is true that she invented a system of martial arts that stymies the Cheun Jen Sect martial arts invented by Wong Chung Yeung, in PERSONAL COMBAT, she would not be able to defeat him (and he, likewise, would not be able to defeat her).

I don't really remember the comparison between the two very well, but it seems the two were more or less equal martial artists (i.e. the only two above the Greats) except she chose to be petty and develop martial arts specifically to counter him, which he later countered only with the help of the 9 Yin (and only in theory). From the feeling I get, the implication is Wang Chongyang would likely be superior if he took that petty path (due to being a male rather than a female, to be honest) but he didn't. She should technically be the best fighter in the world; it just doesn't resonate well with readers because it's portrayed as some petty/female/love reason. If the two were two male fighters with no relationship behind it, and one took the extra step to counter the other person's martial arts, they would no doubt be hailed as the better of the two instead of it having an asterisk behind it saying she's only better because she's petty.

[WuxiaMaster]

I wonder if it is a good approach to make the Greats "progress too much" from the 1st to 3rd Mt Hua (end of ROCH). This would result in some weird outcome of placing WCY and LCY too low (since they died at 1st Mt Hua).

If WCY is only slightly better than the 4 greats at first Mt Hua, the Greats would have LONG surpass him by the time 2nd Mt Hua comes around. If we rank WCY at say, LV60, that would make zero sense. End ROCH Greats at LV75 would absolutely destroy WCY.

Despite the numerous description that the Greats improve by leaps and bounds each time they appear (e.g HYS commenting QYF not only recovered but became even stronger in LOCH, GWM "doubling" his internal despite being Great LV pre 16), plot wise, it would make more sense for them to "start" in the 70.

As an example, compare this 2 approach:

1st Mt Hua (LV 70), 2nd Mt Hua (LV 72), 3rd Mt Hua (LV75) - Not logical given the novel description, but address WCY problem, and seems to fit JY intention of the Greats always being "great" (lv70+), even in their 30s.

1st Mt Hua (LV 60), 2nd Mt Hua (LV 70), 3rd Mt Hua (LV75) - "logical progression" from description/greats age, but doesn't fit in WCY and I think not JY intention.

[tape]

I wonder if it is a good approach to make the Greats "progress too much" from the 1st to 3rd Mt Hua (end of ROCH). This would result in some weird outcome of placing WCY and LCY too low (since they died at 1st Mt Hua).

If WCY is only slightly better than the 4 greats at first Mt Hua, the Greats would have LONG surpass him by the time 2nd Mt Hua comes around. If we rank WCY at say, LV60, that would make zero sense. End ROCH Greats at LV75 would absolutely destroy WCY.

Despite the numerous description that the Greats improve by leaps and bounds each time they appear (e.g HYS commenting QYF not only recovered but became even stronger in LOCH, GWM "doubling" his internal despite being Great LV pre 16), plot wise, it would make more sense for them to "start" in the 70.

As an example, compare this 2 approach:

1st Mt Hua (LV 70), 2nd Mt Hua (LV 72), 3rd Mt Hua (LV75) - Not logical given the novel description, but address WCY problem, and seems to fit JY intention of the Greats always being "great" (lv70+), even in their 30s.

1st Mt Hua (LV 60), 2nd Mt Hua (LV 70), 3rd Mt Hua (LV75) - "logical progression" from description/greats age, but doesn't fit in WCY and I think not JY intention.

This is probably one of the oldest debates in this forum's history, and I think it's more or less agreed upon that JY wants WCY to be at or slightly above current Greats level (despite progression and logic).

[PJ]

As I said before, I think JY changed his mind about WCY's level relative to the Greats between writing LOCH and ROCH (at least in 2nd ed). The inconsistencies are inherent and IMO there's no way to have one consistent version across both novels.

One approach is to take the ROCH statements as canon and forget the LOCH descriptions. In this version, I think it's pretty solidly consistent that WCY >= at-peak Greats.

[PJ]

Besides WCY, I think Xuanming Elders are among the hardest fighters to rank, thanks to inconsistencies. I tend to endorse the low rank b/c they only really shine in one incident; in all other incidents, they only demonstrate a small gap with Miejue et al.

[CancerLuna]

I'm of the opinion that all the Greats peaked at some point between LOCH Beginning and ROCH - Pre 16 years and started their decline slowly afterwards during the 16 years.

@WuxiaMaster

I'm still of the opinion that ZWJ and DFBB's placement is disagreeable, especially ZWJ.

Just look at the guys next to him.

LV 77: Zhou Botong (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
LV 77: Jinlun Fawang (RO) - Post 16 Years.
LV 77: Jiu Mo Zhi (TL)
LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Mainly due to his old age.
LV 77: Zhang Wu Ji (YT)

In my humble opinion, there's no way ZWJ would best any of the ones above him.

[WuxiaMaster]

Besides WCY, I think Xuanming Elders are among the hardest fighters to rank, thanks to inconsistencies. I tend to endorse the low rank b/c they only really shine in one incident; in all other incidents, they only demonstrate a small gap with Miejue et al.

I still can't get over how they "1 hit KO" Yang Xiao and Green Bat

Their first appearance (ignoring exchange with ZSF as anyone would pale in comparision to him) was really impressive.

[WuxiaMaster]

I'm of the opinion that all the Greats peaked at some point between LOCH Beginning and ROCH - Pre 16 years and started their decline slowly afterwards during the 16 years.

@WuxiaMaster

I'm still of the opinion that ZWJ and DFBB's placement is disagreeable, especially ZWJ.

Just look at the guys next to him.

LV 77: Zhou Botong (RO) - Pre & Post 16 Years.
LV 77: Jinlun Fawang (RO) - Post 16 Years.
LV 77: Jiu Mo Zhi (TL)
LV 77: Zhang San Feng (YT) - Mainly due to his old age.
LV 77: Zhang Wu Ji (YT)

In my humble opinion, there's no way ZWJ would best any of the ones above him.

On The Greats:

Chart wise, It would be more reasonable to make them stay in 70 to 75 range throughout.

This would ignore plot events/description that suggest them improving a lot. Most notable IMO: The 4 Greats all got to know 9YZJ by the end of LOCH, yet they somehow stay in the same LV, and are STILL weaker than WCY who didn't even practice 9YZJ.

9YZJ brought GJ from 40s to 70s, but doesn't seem to help the Greats that much. Perhaps this suggest that 9YZJ reaches a plateau around LV75?

----

On ZWJ, he is somewhat like QQR and GWM: Deemed as Great LV, but his actual performance always seems to be lower.

So how do we want to rank him? Actual performance, or "skillset & internal"?

Skillset wise:

1. 9YSG is on the same level as 9YZJ. We know ZWJ mastered it like GJ did. Z3F specifically state he never met anyone with as much internal except GJ.

2. We don't know how QKDNY compare to other Greats skills, but he reached a much higher LV in it than Yang Ding Tian, which we can presume to be among the top in Wulin.

3. Taiji Sword/Fist = Great LV skills.

[Ken Cheng]

At most, I'd say Cheung Mo Gei should lose only one or two points to drop to 76 or 75. I can't see him going much lower than that, even with his limitations (which are more personality-based than actual ability-based).

[PJ]

I still can't get over how they "1 hit KO" Yang Xiao and Green Bat

Get over it

[Ken Cheng]

Get over it

Yeah...one-hit surprises really aren't so uncommon in wuxia. Consider how six-year-old Gwok Jing, who had NO MARTIAL ARTS SKILL WHATSOEVER, killed Chan Yeun Fung, then the most powerful fighter in wulin after the Greats and Kau Cheen Yan, with a single stab. It happens.

[CC]

Let's start something - How strong were the 4 Greats during the 1st Mount Hua?

From the current chart, Yang Guo ranks at LV42 pre Heavy Iron Sword, and Huang Yao Shi mentioned he did not reached YG lv until he is 30 years old.

Timeline wise, The 4 Greats were only in their mid 30s at the First Mt Hua.

If we were to speculate the 4 Greats LV then, where would they be?

Keep in mind that at that point, they already earned their names and were recognized as the strongest in Wulin.

---

For further debate: Personally, I find that is an 'unbelievable' statement. While the guys at LV40s are no scrub, let's look at who we have in that league:

- LOCH QZ 7 Disciples
- Daerba, Huo Du
- 3 of the 4 Evils
- 4 of the 5 Mountain Sect Leaders

Do you guys believe Huang Yao Shi, at age 30, is at this LV? It's hard to imagine how he can progress from this lv to "top 5 in wulin" within the next 5 years. I'll think he would already be this powerful at age 18.

Well, its similar to how MRB as a little boy was able to 1 hit KO (would have killed if not for that guys abnormal organ placement) yellow eyebrow monk in DGSD. The monk was already considered a 1st class fighter back then and MRB was a boy. 40-50 years later, MRB is STILL in the same league of being able to 1 hit KO 1st class fighters. We just got to deal with it.

[PJ]

[EDIT] - after I wrote the below, I realized JY likely didn't intend for young YEM to be that powerful. Yet the math mostly works.

You know, I used to think YEM was a scrub at the time of being 1hitKO'ed by young MRB, but now that I think about it again: he was said to be ~27% proficient in Vajra Finger. Now, in HSDS, Mr. Iron Zither was said to be ~25%* proficient in Liangyi Swordplay. Maybe at-peak Liangyi is a bit better than at-peak Vajra Finger, but not by much, I don't think (VF is a Shaolin art, likely one of the 72 Great Arts). So 1hitKO'ed YEM was probably already near the level of Mr. IZ. For 16yo MRB to 1hitKO such an expert, is truly impressive. And yet, after 35-40 years of more practice, he's "only" as good as a 30yo guy who learned Shaolin internal energy and XL18Z the normal way.

* The exact wording is "20-30%". I am taking the average of 25%.

[CC]

[EDIT] - after I wrote the below, I realized JY likely didn't intend for young YEM to be that powerful. Yet the math mostly works.

You know, I used to think YEM was a scrub at the time of being 1hitKO'ed by young MRB, but now that I think about it again: he was said to be ~27% proficient in Vajra Finger. Now, in HSDS, Mr. Iron Zither was said to be ~25%* proficient in Liangyi Swordplay. Maybe at-peak Liangyi is a bit better than at-peak Vajra Finger, but not by much, I don't think (VF is a Shaolin art, likely one of the 72 Great Arts). So 1hitKO'ed YEM was probably already near the level of Mr. IZ. For 16yo MRB to 1hitKO such an expert, is truly impressive. And yet, after 35-40 years of more practice, he's "only" as good as a 30yo guy who learned Shaolin internal energy and XL18Z the normal way.

* The exact wording is "20-30%". I am taking the average of 25%.

As I said, we have to deal with it. MA progress in JY world is super elastic.