Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

[WuxiaMaster]

Good that we are having more discussion to flesh out the lower ranks. For ROCH, I think these are some rankings we can benchmark against:

LV 50: Nimo Xing (RO), Yin Kexin (RO), Xiao Xiangzi (RO)
LV 42: Daerba (RO) - At Martial Art meet
LV 42: Yang Guo (RO) - Before losing his arm.
Yideng Disciples (RO) - Range from Zhu Zi Liu (LV48), Diancang Yuyin to Wu Santong (LV40)
LV 40: Huo Du (RO) – At Marital Art Meet
LV 30: Yelu Qi (RO) - Pre 16 Years
LV 25: Cheng Ying (RO) - Pre 16 Years
LV 10: Wu Brothers (RO) - Pre 16 Years.

Post 16 years, Wu Brothers didn't fight against anyone that possess a ranking, so we can only make a best guess. I doubt they are anywhere near the Mongol mercenaries though.

[_Kenny_]

Another fairly important character in XAJH that should be added in is Yue Lingshan. She's definitely above level 10 at the start of the novel since she could handle herself against Yu Cang Hai's disciples and her swordplay did improve after learning some of the swordplay techniques of other schools on the cave wall, especially at the meetup of the 5 sword alliances to determine a new chief. She did beat a few ranked fighters. Maybe at level 25?

[Ken Cheng]

The Mo Brothers were never near the Mongol mercenaries' level, or even half, but surely, *below* Yeung Teet Sum and Gwok Siu Teen is too far down.

Maybe if you don't want to promote the Mo Brothers higher than Level 10, then I suggest bringing Yeung Teet Sum and Gwok Siu Teen down to Level 10 because honestly, Yeung's and Gwok's demonstrations of martial arts in LOCH were not that impressive...definitely below Gong Nam 7 Freaks level.

[ToastedRossi]

The Wu brothers were considered worthy students of Guo Jing, and their performances on the stage at the Beggar Association tournament were well received. They should be way stronger than the likes of Yang Tiexin. The Wus were already halfway decent by the time they fought against Li Mochou alongside their father; enough to make a significant contribution to the fight. Guo Jing was a bad teacher, but he wasn't that bad!

[PJ]

Really? The text is quite clear in pointing out that Shi Potian was now able to do all sorts of things that he had never been able to do before. And that Long and Mu confirmed that his martial arts skills were beyond top notch.

I'm not saying his MA skills aren't top notch. I'm suggesting that his lack of combat experience drags down his overall level.

Wrong. Having an undefined upper limit is totally different from having an undefined lower limit. We know that Shi Potian is vastly superior skills to anyone else in Ode to Gallantry at the very least.

His lower limit would be performance in a real combat (his weakness historically) using his new MA, which we never saw. I emphasize the word "real". His engagement with the lords was not a real combat.

Now, if we're talking about him after years of more training and sparring (though he would have trouble finding worthy opponents), then it would be a different story. But I'm evaluating him at the end of novel - having just acquired the new MA without much practice and only one subconscious duel under his belt.

[ToastedRossi]

I'm not saying his MA skills aren't top notch. I'm suggesting that his lack of combat experience drags down his overall level.

There are tons of examples of characters taking on top-notch opponents while they have either no combat experience at all. A list of such characters would include Xuzhu, Zhang Junbao, and Zhang Wuji. Shi Potian has significantly more experience than all of the above by the end of Ode to Gallantry.

His lower limit would be performance in a real combat (his weakness historically) using his new MA, which we never saw. I emphasize the word "real". His engagement with the lords was not a real combat.

Why would you assume that Shi Potian would perform worse in a real fight?

[Wuxiakid]

I feel like speculation for Feng qing yang should much higher than level 75. This guy assumingly mastered dugu9J, an art considered by Jinyong to be the strongest sword skill that was once used by the greatest swordsman in history

Honestly if he mastered it, he can break qi, break sword, break palm. He should be godlike right? above the greats in my opinion

[Fu Hong Xue]

Hi gurus,

Hello and first of all, i would like to say, i was seriously impressed by your guys knowledge of all these shits.
I'm here creating account to request something . I hope some of u guys watched the swordman 2013 ( smiling proud wanderer ). i was shocked by the fact that they made DFBB an actual female. and there is one scene where dfbb face off fqy (even if for few strokes ) and they were having fair fight. and i had impression that fqy could possibly beat her ( it can be other way around as well). So can we update his level to somewhere near dfbb? ).
and pls take this my humble request into consideration. And lhc was acknowledged and trust in his earlier time was due to him being fqy students. even the top martial artists show upmost respect to fqy.

[WuxiaMaster]

While there is no way of knowing FQY actual level (given that he did not fight in the actual novel. Adaptions do not count), LV 75 is a reasonable speculation imo.

Here's why:
1. It is generally agree (from earlier discussions) that RWX is a slight notch below the 4 greats. This also fits in with the "law of declining martial arts level" - Note TLBB greats at 80s (e.g. the true original Bei Ming Shen Gong), Condor Greats at 75s and XAJH greats at 70s.

2. Add on to point 1, we can also compare YG and LHC. We know LHC is almost as good as RWX, but most would agree LHC is still a league below YG.

---

For ease of reference, the lvs now are:
LV 75: 4 Greats
LV 72: Yang Guo (RO) - Pre 16 years, using Heavy Iron Sword
LV 72: Fang Zheng (XA)
LV 70: Ren Wo Xing (XA)
LV 69: Ling Hu Chong (XA)

---

3. In the Shaolin battle, RWX mention FQY as one he respects due to his superior swordplay. We can thus infer they probably fought (or 切磋) before, since RWX probably won't 'respect' someone base on hearsay.

If so, what was the result? Since FQY is "superior", RWX probably lost, at least in terms of swordplay. (Hence, we can place FQY above RWX)

But was it an absolute "thrashing"? I find it very unlikely. Base on the way he commented, RWX likely lost after a reasonable number of exchanges with FQY.

If we push FQY any higher (say to 80 and above), it would mean he can defeat RWX within 10 strokes, or even 1 hit kill RWX. Honestly, how likely is that? I think RWX comments would be very different if FQY was able to defeat him in 1 blow.


4. For Reference, DFBB is at LV85 and he took on RWX + LHC + XWT, using a needle, and was still able to toy with them easily.


[Note: There is 1 possibility here though, which is FQY had not mastered DG9J at the time he fought with RWX. Haha.]

[Wuxiakid]

I was reading through the translations again about how Ren Woxing admires Fengqingyang.

"Ren Woxing laughed. “Haha, Madam Yue, you thought that the person I was referring to was your husband? He... he lacks by a lot. The person I admire has a godly sword art. He’s Feng Qingyang. Mr. Feng’s sword art is much higher compared to me and I wouldn’t be able to reach that stage at all. I sincerely admire him.” (can't read chinese btw)

Doesn't this suggest that FQY is pretty much way above him? Surely he did not describe LHC's sword art in this way when they fought, meaning FQY should be much above LHC. Given such a strong comment, I wouldn't be surprised if FQY could beat RWX in 20-30 strokes.

If DFBB is level 85 and LHC is at 69, it doesnt make sense to me that someone who mastered Dugu9jian is only at level 75 when Jin yong has hyped up such a legendary swordplay and character

[_Kenny_]

I was reading through the translations again about how Ren Woxing admires Fengqingyang.

"Ren Woxing laughed. “Haha, Madam Yue, you thought that the person I was referring to was your husband? He... he lacks by a lot. The person I admire has a godly sword art. He’s Feng Qingyang. Mr. Feng’s sword art is much higher compared to me and I wouldn’t be able to reach that stage at all. I sincerely admire him.” (can't read chinese btw)

Doesn't this suggest that FQY is pretty much way above him? Surely he did not describe LHC's sword art in this way when they fought, meaning FQY should be much above LHC. Given such a strong comment, I wouldn't be surprised if FQY could beat RWX in 20-30 strokes.

If DFBB is level 85 and LHC is at 69, it doesnt make sense to me that someone who mastered Dugu9jian is only at level 75 when Jin yong has hyped up such a legendary swordplay and character

You make a very convincing argument. Maybe FQY should be at least level 80 or 85. Jin Yong did say that the 9 swords of Dugu was superior than the Sunflower Manual/Bixie swordplay and since FQY has mastered it, he should not be below DFBB, at least his equal.

[Snafu3721]

I don't remember all the related debates, whether on this thread or others...
But is there really a consensus that DFBB is at 85?

I think the recent arguments regarding FQY, etc, are very logical. I think the problem lies in that DFBB at 85 may seem too high

[Wuxiakid]

I don't remember all the related debates, whether on this thread or others...
But is there really a consensus that DFBB is at 85?

I think the recent arguments regarding FQY, etc, are very logical. I think the problem lies in that DFBB at 85 may seem too high

I think the idea was that Xiao feng ~ Murong Fu + Youtanzhi (stated that he would have lost). But DFBB > LHC + RWX + XWT. Seems unlikely that XF can possibly take on the other 3 like DFBB. If XF is at level 80, DFBB should definitely be ahead of him.

[WuxiaMaster]

I think the idea was that Xiao feng ~ Murong Fu + Youtanzhi (stated that he would have lost). But DFBB > LHC + RWX + XWT. Seems unlikely that XF can possibly take on the other 3 like DFBB. If XF is at level 80, DFBB should definitely be ahead of him.

---

There lies one of the major inconsistency actually.

I forgot where the discussion was, but many forum-ers felt that it was very inconsistent for Jinyong to say that Murong Fu + You Tan Zhi would have beaten XF. (I believe in the novel, it was described as "XF felt he would have lost").

There is no doubt that one on one, against YTZ, MRF or DCQ (these 3 are roughly on the same level), XF would have won VERY EASILY. Like within 10-20 blows, perhaps even faster if he went all out. (There is evidence in the novel where he showed this, against DCQ).

So basically, he can defeat any 1 of them easily, but would lose when 2 of them team up? Either he's underestimating himself, extremely bad at handicap matches, or somehow MRF + YTZ complement each other weakness and multiplied their strengths in the fight.

---

For DFBB, I was actually in favor of placing him even higher. However, that would place him at the same level as XZ (LV90). Many don't think XZ with his 200 years of internal strength would lose to DFBB.

It is a fact however, that DFBB is WAYYYY above RWX and LHC. (Think YG/HYS toying with Mongol mercenaries kind of difference)

So we can either:

1) Push RWX/LHC even lower (Hence 'nerfing' all characters from XAJH even more);
2) Push DFBB to XZ level;
3) Accept that the chart is made for 1v1 situations, and not accurate for team fights.

[EdenResident]

Zhang Wuji's level of 77 is a little too low, IMO. There's strong evidence that he has to be at least 80. First, this guy already posesses inner power better than most LOCH/ROCH Greats' at the age of 21!! For comparison's sake, GJ and YG at age 21 are still struggling against level 55 fighters like Gongsun Zhi (lol).

Second, ZWJ is already 77 or 78 before the battle with the Du monks. He handles the formation of two 60 fighters in XM Elders with ease. Xiao Feng, everyone's favorite fighter, struggles against Murong Fu and You Tan Zhi (both are 60). And the thing is those two guys were not even fighting together, much less in a formation like the XM Elders (Murong Fu obviously has his own agenda and has no problem sacrificing his "teammate" for personal gain). So, it comes down to which team you think is better: the XM Elders, who are basically brothers, fighting in a formation they have practiced for years; or MRF and YTZ, who are strangers and are only fighting together because they have a common opponent. To me, team 1 is better and it is why I think ZWJ should be at least 80, the same as Xiao Feng.

That is ZWJ before the Du monks battle. After that, he's definitely 80. First of all, one problem with ZWJ, besides his unwillingness to hurt people, is his confidence. Sometimes, he doesn't know he can do the things he can. The Du monks battle allows him to level up. This is like a pianist who levels up after a Chopin etude. Just knowing what he can physically do makes him that much better.

As for the Du monks battle itself, I'm gonna make another comparison. DFBB beats RWX+LHC+XWT, who are 70, 69 and 65 respectively (though I believe XWT is like ~55, same as Yang Xiao, Fan Yao). The Du monks are 62 to 65. However, the Du monks fight in a formation that they spent years and years practicing to the point where they become one (心意相通）. Now for the condition of the fight, the two are actually kind of similar. ZWJ has to worry about his godfather and DFBB has to worry about her lover. In the end, DFBB lost because of that and ZWJ almost did, too, if not for the Yellow Maiden's intervention. However, ZWJ handled it better, IMO. DFBB lost pretty immediately the moment she found out her lover was being tortured to death. In any case, RWX+LHT+XWT is still better than the Du monks'formation but if DFBB can be 85 then ZWJ has to be 80, especially after the fight when he now knows he can beat such strong opponents.

TL, DR; XM Elders in formation > MRF+YTZ. Du monks in formation is only slightly worse than RWX+LHC+XWT. If XF and DFBB can be 80 and 85, ZWJ has to be 80.

If we extrapolate/speculate to 5 years after the novel, then no reason why ZWJ can't reach 85. What ZWJ lacks is elite skills and theories and he can get that from the biggest martial arts theorist in JY's universe. Oh and that little book called Jiu Yin Zhen Jing may help a bit, too.

[pannonian]

Zhang Wuji's level of 77 is a little too low, IMO. There's strong evidence that he has to be at least 80. First, this guy already posesses inner power better than most LOCH/ROCH Greats' at the age of 21!! For comparison's sake, GJ and YG at age 21 are still struggling against level 55 fighters like Gongsun Zhi (lol).

Second, ZWJ is already 77 or 78 before the battle with the Du monks. He handles the formation of two 60 fighters in XM Elders with ease. Xiao Feng, everyone's favorite fighter, struggles against Murong Fu and You Tan Zhi (both are 60). And the thing is those two guys were not even fighting together, much less in a formation like the XM Elders (Murong Fu obviously has his own agenda and has no problem sacrificing his "teammate" for personal gain). So, it comes down to which team you think is better: the XM Elders, who are basically brothers, fighting in a formation they have practiced for years; or MRF and YTZ, who are strangers and are only fighting together because they have a common opponent. To me, team 1 is better and it is why I think ZWJ should be at least 80, the same as Xiao Feng.

That is ZWJ before the Du monks battle. After that, he's definitely 80. First of all, one problem with ZWJ, besides his unwillingness to hurt people, is his confidence. Sometimes, he doesn't know he can do the things he can. The Du monks battle allows him to level up. This is like a pianist who levels up after a Chopin etude. Just knowing what he can physically do makes him that much better.

As for the Du monks battle itself, I'm gonna make another comparison. DFBB beats RWX+LHC+XWT, who are 70, 69 and 65 respectively (though I believe XWT is like ~55, same as Yang Xiao, Fan Yao). The Du monks are 62 to 65. However, the Du monks fight in a formation that they spent years and years practicing to the point where they become one (心意相通). Now for the condition of the fight, the two are actually kind of similar. ZWJ has to worry about his godfather and DFBB has to worry about her lover. In the end, DFBB lost because of that and ZWJ almost did, too, if not for the Yellow Maiden's intervention. However, ZWJ handled it better, IMO. DFBB lost pretty immediately the moment she found out her lover was being tortured to death. In any case, RWX+LHT+XWT is still better than the Du monks'formation but if DFBB can be 85 then ZWJ has to be 80, especially after the fight when he now knows he can beat such strong opponents.

TL, DR; XM Elders in formation > MRF+YTZ. Du monks in formation is only slightly worse than RWX+LHC+XWT. If XF and DFBB can be 80 and 85, ZWJ has to be 80.

If we extrapolate/speculate to 5 years after the novel, then no reason why ZWJ can't reach 85. What ZWJ lacks is elite skills and theories and he can get that from the biggest martial arts theorist in JY's universe. Oh and that little book called Jiu Yin Zhen Jing may help a bit, too.

At 20, Yang Guo beat 3 fighters in a row of Qiu Chuji level or above in 1 stance each, without moving from his standing position. At around the same age, Guo Jing lasted for a while against 2 Greats simultaneously, and even lasted for a stance or two against 3 Greats simultaneously. Don't underestimate their fighting ability at that age.

[Wuxiakid]

Zhang Wuji's level of 77 is a little too low, IMO. There's strong evidence that he has to be at least 80. First, this guy already posesses inner power better than most LOCH/ROCH Greats' at the age of 21!! For comparison's sake, GJ and YG at age 21 are still struggling against level 55 fighters like Gongsun Zhi (lol).

Second, ZWJ is already 77 or 78 before the battle with the Du monks. He handles the formation of two 60 fighters in XM Elders with ease. Xiao Feng, everyone's favorite fighter, struggles against Murong Fu and You Tan Zhi (both are 60). And the thing is those two guys were not even fighting together, much less in a formation like the XM Elders (Murong Fu obviously has his own agenda and has no problem sacrificing his "teammate" for personal gain). So, it comes down to which team you think is better: the XM Elders, who are basically brothers, fighting in a formation they have practiced for years; or MRF and YTZ, who are strangers and are only fighting together because they have a common opponent. To me, team 1 is better and it is why I think ZWJ should be at least 80, the same as Xiao Feng.

I'm not sure whether you can say he handles them with ease. I'm pretty sure he has struggled alot and under performed during their fights.

As for the Du monks battle itself, I'm gonna make another comparison. DFBB beats RWX+LHC+XWT, who are 70, 69 and 65 respectively (though I believe XWT is like ~55, same as Yang Xiao, Fan Yao). The Du monks are 62 to 65. However, the Du monks fight in a formation that they spent years and years practicing to the point where they become one (心意相通）. Now for the condition of the fight, the two are actually kind of similar. ZWJ has to worry about his godfather and DFBB has to worry about her lover. In the end, DFBB lost because of that and ZWJ almost did, too, if not for the Yellow Maiden's intervention. However, ZWJ handled it better, IMO. DFBB lost pretty immediately the moment she found out her lover was being tortured to death. In any case, RWX+LHT+XWT is still better than the Du monks'formation but if DFBB can be 85 then ZWJ has to be 80, especially after the fight when he now knows he can beat such strong opponents.

TL, DR; XM Elders in formation > MRF+YTZ. Du monks in formation is only slightly worse than RWX+LHC+XWT. If XF and DFBB can be 80 and 85, ZWJ has to be 80.

The big difference is that DFBB was CLEARLY winning. During the fight DFBB did not even get scratched whereas the other 3 got pierced by many needles; literally pummeled. ZWJ by himself cannot win against the Du monks, thats why he needed help

Please explain why XWT is level 55. He was stated to be half a level lower than RWX and confidently stood to fight against ZLC. People like Yang Xiao can't compare when they got destroyed by one palm move by the XM elders

IMO fighting and winning against level 70, 69, 65 is much more impressive than ZWJ fighting 3 level 60-65 masters to a standoff

If we extrapolate/speculate to 5 years after the novel, then no reason why ZWJ can't reach 85. What ZWJ lacks is elite skills and theories and he can get that from the biggest martial arts theorist in JY's universe. Oh and that little book called Jiu Yin Zhen Jing may help a bit, too.

Maybe or maybe not. He has pretty much learnt everything he can from the top martial artist ZSF of his time. Not sure how much JYZJ can really help him. As we see, in ROCH, GJ and ZBT was only a notch above the other greats during their peak. Once everyone reaches such high levels, JYZJ cannot help them advance that much. Though this is probably not important anyway cos we don't know what happened after the novel.



In the end, I still think Xiao Feng is simply better. The way Jin Yong describes him to be an unbeatable warrior who always beats opponents stronger than himself.

[WuxiaMaster]

Just to point out, we do not extrapolate on characters' potential levels into the future. Levels listed are characters at their most powerful point in the novel (usually the end, unless otherwise stated).

It will get kind of ridiculous and never-ending if we get to things like "XZ will reach sweeper monk level when he's older, and unlock all his potential and know how to utilize his internal.", "YG is equal to 4 greats at 30 years old, so he should be LV85 when he's 60", etc...

You may refer to the 1st post for clarifications on such stuff.

[Fu Hong Xue]

Just to point out, we do not extrapolate on characters' potential levels into the future. Levels listed are characters at their most powerful point in the novel (usually the end, unless otherwise stated).

It will get kind of ridiculous and never-ending if we get to things like "XZ will reach sweeper monk level when he's older, and unlock all his potential and know how to utilize his internal.", "YG is equal to 4 greats at 30 years old, so he should be LV85 when he's 60", etc...

You may refer to the 1st post for clarifications on such stuff.

yeah.. may be we all have our fav char ( like for me, all swordsmaster are my fav). actually its hard to say what he will be at age 60 giving the facts that alot of things can happen in their world. and back to FQY case, if RWX said his (FQY ) sword skill is god like and much better then me, then can we accept the fact that FQY is much better? even if that is RWX said, ultimately, it was written by JY himself. again, im just here to request based on my opinion.

and to be honest, i know that tv adaptation has not exactly the same with novel but i still love to watch them. like they are remaking otg now. in adaptation we can see some of the missing facts like how big is the chessboard that JY scrape it. but dfbb being actual woman in swordman 2013 series (remake of proud wanderer ) is still ridiculous. but i still like it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iMF2PkVjBk



and hey, did u guys watch "romance of the condor hero"? its not even the remake of any. just the compilation of all love stories of heros from LOCH and ROCH. and u know what, my fav DEMON SWORDMAN made his appearance (just few scenes though) !!!

[EdenResident]

Debate this

Xiao Feng < MRF (60) + YTZ (60)

Zhang Wuji > XM Elders (60 + 60)

If XF is 80 then ZWJ is also at least 80.