Just saw the recent discussions.
I don't agree with the part that "younger gen" cannot exceed "older gen" so Chongxu cannot be stronger than Wudang 7 heroes.
If Chongxu is at Wudang hero lv, the entire xiao ao jiang hu wulin would be incredibly weak - Imagine Linghu Chong with "dugu qiubai lv" arts being at wudang hero level...
the 5 mountain sect leaders would be what? Song qing shu level?
Yes. That's the sad fact. Guo Jing can surpass his teacher (7 Jiang Nan, Ma Yu, even Hong Qi Gong) because he got various skills from various teachers n source (9 Yin). Linghu Chong can surpass Yue Bu Qun because skill from outside Huashan (Dugu's skill). If Guo Jing purely learn only 7 Jiang Nan skill, he at best will be at Ke Zhen e level lol, can say same thing to LHC, he at best ll be YBQ level. But higher chance they ll end up weaker than their shifu.
I can confidently say Chongxu won't exceed Wudang Heroes level IF he only learn from wudang. Unless he got other source.
Generally, I would agree with your premise that if a student would just learn directly from his master and nothing/no one else, chances are his master's level is the ceiling. Howevee, this is only true for direct one-on-one master-student tutoring, where the master tries to impart everything he knows without any manuals as reference. However, if the founder of a sect or creator of an art is able to distill his knowledge in the form of a manual, then a student from a later generation would just have as good a chance as his predecessor if both learn from the same book. There are no more ceiling. If 2 students learn from the same book, their skill levels would only depend on their individual ability. (Here I'm talking about complete manuals, not those with missing pages or those cryptic ones that need extra explanations to be passes down).
So for example, both Jue Yuan and Zhang Wuji learn from the same 9Yang manual and their inner power are equal. ZWJ doesn't have any lower ceiling because he's 3 gens down from JY. Another example. Yang Dingtian surpasses almost all previous Ming cult's leaders in QKDNY levels (except for the very first creator). YDT doesn't have a lower ceiling than those previous-gen guys because they learn from the same book.
Now back to CX's case. It's obvious that the Taiji book he learns from is a complete book and therefore it doesn't suffer from the degrading theory. You can say that the Wudang heroes have a higher ceiling because in addition to the books, they also have direct tutelage from ZSF and I would greatly agree with that. Still, as long as Taiji is a well written manual like 9Yin, 9Yang, YJJ et al, which I believe it is, then it's not unfathomable than CX can exceed the levels of those before him, like the way Yang Dingtian, ZWJ, Fang Zheng exceed those before them when learning from the same books.
To WuxiaMaster:
My theory regarding LHC's sword level and overall martial arts level:
It looks like LHC was learning DGKB's first sword stage, during Dugu's teenage years.
Also, great internal energy likely would not be required for this stage.
Since this is DGKB's first stage and LHC did not fully mastered it, his overall level should not be ranked at 69.
In comparison, post-16 YG has fully mastered Stage 3 of the HIS and beyond, so he should be ranked much higher than LHC or downgrade LHC's level.
This analysis of LHC's level would ultimately affect the levels of all SPW characters' rankings.
DGKB's stages:
The first sword
"(My First Sword) was so sharp, strong and fierce that none may withstand it. With this sword, I used to strive for mastery against all the heroes of the Northern Plains during my teenage years."
The second sword
"(My Second Sword) was violet in hue and flexible in movement. I used it in my twenties, and with it I mistakenly wounded righteous men. It turned out to be a Weapon of Doom which caused me endless remorse, so I cast it into a deep canyon."
The third sword
"(My Third Sword) was heavy and blunt. The uttermost cunning is based on simplicity. With it's help, I roamed the entire Empire under Heaven unopposed in my thirties."
The fourth sword
"After the age of forty, I am no longer hampered by any weaponry. Grass, trees, bamboos and rocks can all be my swords. Since then I have developed my skills even further, so that gradually I am becoming able to win the battle without reaching for arms."
Interesting opinion. I agree with some of your words. If the teacher write his skills into book, the martial art level between generations will be far more stable. But you can't ignore the fact that all major sects failed to do that (the martial level between teacher - students keep degrading). Major orthodox sect like Shaolin, wudang, emei, huashan.. all get degraded along with time till qing dynasty which is already become "normal" kungfu like we can see today, no more qi from palm, sucking energy etc
Even if we take wudang as example like urs, priest Chongxu is failed to teach the taiji swordplay to his wudang students, which is why he only counted as half person by RWX
Right. Absolutely agree with your key points. In the main scheme of things, the degrading theory holds. No chance anyone from Wudang is gonna get near ZSF's level, unless they learn something else, a la ZWJ with his 9Yang. However, to me, there's still room for individuals to become better than their predecessors as long as they have access to quality materials.
I don't like WCY, but the more you explore the novels, the more it seems that WCY would hold his position even in the new age.
During the fight against GWM, ZBT clearly stated that if WCY was still alive, there was no way GWM could last even 10 stances (not sure how many).
It's not really that baseless, though. WCY had a very profound understanding of martial arts, which wasn't shown enough during LOCH and only revealed bits by bits during ROCH. He was very likely still holding back during the duels with the 4 Greats. I think JY didn't want to describe him as being too powerful for fear of making the 4 Greats look weak. 10 stances if hyperbole on ZBT's part but it wouldn't be unfathomable that WCY could beat GWM in less than 50 stances. WCY basically one-hit KOed OYF. Even if that was a bit of a trickery, he didn't just stab OYF in the back or fake injury to get into very close range. It was still a direct, frontal hit that disabled OYF for years.
Fifty strokes sounds reasonable enough to me. Ten strokes would have Wong Chung Yeung close to Dook Goo Kau Bai/Hui Juk/Janitor Monk territory, and while Wong was great, I'm not sure he was quite in *that* class.
Poor Au Yeung Fung...he never would have guessed a "dead" man would jump out of his own coffin to strike him.
But YG could easily beat JLFW within 5 moves so YG stronger than WCY and the rest of Greats (include GJ)..
Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
It's not really that baseless, though. WCY had a very profound understanding of martial arts, which wasn't shown enough during LOCH and only revealed bits by bits during ROCH. He was very likely still holding back during the duels with the 4 Greats. I think JY didn't want to describe him as being too powerful for fear of making the 4 Greats look weak. 10 stances if hyperbole on ZBT's part but it wouldn't be unfathomable that WCY could beat GWM in less than 50 stances. WCY basically one-hit KOed OYF. Even if that was a bit of a trickery, he didn't just stab OYF in the back or fake injury to get into very close range. It was still a direct, frontal hit that disabled OYF for years.
Fifty strokes sounds reasonable enough to me. Ten strokes would have Wong Chung Yeung close to Dook Goo Kau Bai/Hui Juk/Janitor Monk territory, and while Wong was great, I'm not sure he was quite in *that* class.
Poor Au Yeung Fung...he never would have guessed a "dead" man would jump out of his own coffin to strike him.
@EdenResident and @Ken Cheng:
I think WCY could/may indeed defeat pre-16 JLFW in a few hundred stances but against post-16 JLFW with 10th level Dragon Elephant Prana Palms is another story....
If ZBT had to rely on his vacant fists and was put on a defensive mode, I don't think WCY could do any better with his Pre-heaven skills and solitary finger against post-16 JLFW.
Moreover, WCY's peak should ~ with Yideng's peak.
Yeeep aside YG I never think Greats beat another Greats within 20 moves..
WCY indeed beat OYF and destroy his Hama Gong but for me it's more sneak attack than fair duel..