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Thread: Jinyong Character Level Ranking Chart

  1. #1561
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Well...Kiu Fung surpassed all of his Beggar's Union and Shaolin teachers. Gwok Jing arguably surpassed North Beggar Hung 7 Gung. Yeung Gor surpassed anybody before him from the Cheun Jen Sect and Ancient Tomb Sect except perhaps Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung and Lam Chiu Ying (jury's out on that one because Jin Yong never really wanted to take the # 1 position away from Wong Chung Yeung, and yet kind of did by introducing Lam Chiu Ying). Ling Wu Chung also surpassed his teacher Ngok But Kwun. Now what do all of these guys have in common? Main Protagonist Privilege. It doesn't work for everybody, but main protagonists will often accomplish this feat.
    I think there is a very good chance XLN has surpassed Lam Chiu Ying with Left-Right techniques.

    Wong Chung Yeung may be #1 among the old Greats but not likely against YG or GJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern_Heretic View Post
    And in JY universe, Inner energy always more important than swordmanship. U can have the most complicated, beautifully swordplay, but if ur inner energy is lacking, one brute qi force from YG will knock you down. I bet ZWJ even he only studied taichi sword in less than half hour, he can knock Chongxu easily because of his monsterous inner energy lvl
    Totally agree.
    "Simplicity brings superiority"

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    Just saw the recent discussions.

    I don't agree with the part that "younger gen" cannot exceed "older gen" so Chongxu cannot be stronger than Wudang 7 heroes.

    If Chongxu is at Wudang hero lv, the entire xiao ao jiang hu wulin would be incredibly weak - Imagine Linghu Chong with "dugu qiubai lv" arts being at wudang hero level...

    the 5 mountain sect leaders would be what? Song qing shu level?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Just saw the recent discussions.

    I don't agree with the part that "younger gen" cannot exceed "older gen" so Chongxu cannot be stronger than Wudang 7 heroes.

    If Chongxu is at Wudang hero lv, the entire xiao ao jiang hu wulin would be incredibly weak - Imagine Linghu Chong with "dugu qiubai lv" arts being at wudang hero level...

    the 5 mountain sect leaders would be what? Song qing shu level?
    Welcome back WuxiaMaster!

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Just saw the recent discussions.

    I don't agree with the part that "younger gen" cannot exceed "older gen" so Chongxu cannot be stronger than Wudang 7 heroes.

    If Chongxu is at Wudang hero lv, the entire xiao ao jiang hu wulin would be incredibly weak - Imagine Linghu Chong with "dugu qiubai lv" arts being at wudang hero level...

    the 5 mountain sect leaders would be what? Song qing shu level?
    Yes. That's the sad fact. Guo Jing can surpass his teacher (7 Jiang Nan, Ma Yu, even Hong Qi Gong) because he got various skills from various teachers n source (9 Yin). Linghu Chong can surpass Yue Bu Qun because skill from outside Huashan (Dugu's skill). If Guo Jing purely learn only 7 Jiang Nan skill, he at best will be at Ke Zhen e level lol, can say same thing to LHC, he at best ll be YBQ level. But higher chance they ll end up weaker than their shifu.

    I can confidently say Chongxu won't exceed Wudang Heroes level IF he only learn from wudang. Unless he got other source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern_Heretic View Post
    Yes. That's the sad fact. Guo Jing can surpass his teacher (7 Jiang Nan, Ma Yu, even Hong Qi Gong) because he got various skills from various teachers n source (9 Yin). Linghu Chong can surpass Yue Bu Qun because skill from outside Huashan (Dugu's skill). If Guo Jing purely learn only 7 Jiang Nan skill, he at best will be at Ke Zhen e level lol, can say same thing to LHC, he at best ll be YBQ level. But higher chance they ll end up weaker than their shifu.

    I can confidently say Chongxu won't exceed Wudang Heroes level IF he only learn from wudang. Unless he got other source.
    Generally, I would agree with your premise that if a student would just learn directly from his master and nothing/no one else, chances are his master's level is the ceiling. Howevee, this is only true for direct one-on-one master-student tutoring, where the master tries to impart everything he knows without any manuals as reference. However, if the founder of a sect or creator of an art is able to distill his knowledge in the form of a manual, then a student from a later generation would just have as good a chance as his predecessor if both learn from the same book. There are no more ceiling. If 2 students learn from the same book, their skill levels would only depend on their individual ability. (Here I'm talking about complete manuals, not those with missing pages or those cryptic ones that need extra explanations to be passes down).

    So for example, both Jue Yuan and Zhang Wuji learn from the same 9Yang manual and their inner power are equal. ZWJ doesn't have any lower ceiling because he's 3 gens down from JY. Another example. Yang Dingtian surpasses almost all previous Ming cult's leaders in QKDNY levels (except for the very first creator). YDT doesn't have a lower ceiling than those previous-gen guys because they learn from the same book.

    Now back to CX's case. It's obvious that the Taiji book he learns from is a complete book and therefore it doesn't suffer from the degrading theory. You can say that the Wudang heroes have a higher ceiling because in addition to the books, they also have direct tutelage from ZSF and I would greatly agree with that. Still, as long as Taiji is a well written manual like 9Yin, 9Yang, YJJ et al, which I believe it is, then it's not unfathomable than CX can exceed the levels of those before him, like the way Yang Dingtian, ZWJ, Fang Zheng exceed those before them when learning from the same books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WuxiaMaster View Post
    Just saw the recent discussions.

    I don't agree with the part that "younger gen" cannot exceed "older gen" so Chongxu cannot be stronger than Wudang 7 heroes.

    If Chongxu is at Wudang hero lv, the entire xiao ao jiang hu wulin would be incredibly weak - Imagine Linghu Chong with "dugu qiubai lv" arts being at wudang hero level...

    the 5 mountain sect leaders would be what? Song qing shu level?
    To WuxiaMaster:

    My theory regarding LHC's sword level and overall martial arts level:
    It looks like LHC was learning DGKB's first sword stage, during Dugu's teenage years.
    Also, great internal energy likely would not be required for this stage.
    Since this is DGKB's first stage and LHC did not fully mastered it, his overall level should not be ranked at 69.

    In comparison, post-16 YG has fully mastered Stage 3 of the HIS and beyond, so he should be ranked much higher than LHC or downgrade LHC's level.
    This analysis of LHC's level would ultimately affect the levels of all SPW characters' rankings.

    DGKB's stages:

    The first sword
    "(My First Sword) was so sharp, strong and fierce that none may withstand it. With this sword, I used to strive for mastery against all the heroes of the Northern Plains during my teenage years."
    The second sword
    "(My Second Sword) was violet in hue and flexible in movement. I used it in my twenties, and with it I mistakenly wounded righteous men. It turned out to be a Weapon of Doom which caused me endless remorse, so I cast it into a deep canyon."
    The third sword
    "(My Third Sword) was heavy and blunt. The uttermost cunning is based on simplicity. With it's help, I roamed the entire Empire under Heaven unopposed in my thirties."
    The fourth sword
    "After the age of forty, I am no longer hampered by any weaponry. Grass, trees, bamboos and rocks can all be my swords. Since then I have developed my skills even further, so that gradually I am becoming able to win the battle without reaching for arms."

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    Generally, I would agree with your premise that if a student would just learn directly from his master and nothing/no one else, chances are his master's level is the ceiling. Howevee, this is only true for direct one-on-one master-student tutoring, where the master tries to impart everything he knows without any manuals as reference. However, if the founder of a sect or creator of an art is able to distill his knowledge in the form of a manual, then a student from a later generation would just have as good a chance as his predecessor if both learn from the same book. There are no more ceiling. If 2 students learn from the same book, their skill levels would only depend on their individual ability. (Here I'm talking about complete manuals, not those with missing pages or those cryptic ones that need extra explanations to be passes down).

    So for example, both Jue Yuan and Zhang Wuji learn from the same 9Yang manual and their inner power are equal. ZWJ doesn't have any lower ceiling because he's 3 gens down from JY. Another example. Yang Dingtian surpasses almost all previous Ming cult's leaders in QKDNY levels (except for the very first creator). YDT doesn't have a lower ceiling than those previous-gen guys because they learn from the same book.

    Now back to CX's case. It's obvious that the Taiji book he learns from is a complete book and therefore it doesn't suffer from the degrading theory. You can say that the Wudang heroes have a higher ceiling because in addition to the books, they also have direct tutelage from ZSF and I would greatly agree with that. Still, as long as Taiji is a well written manual like 9Yin, 9Yang, YJJ et al, which I believe it is, then it's not unfathomable than CX can exceed the levels of those before him, like the way Yang Dingtian, ZWJ, Fang Zheng exceed those before them when learning from the same books.
    Interesting opinion. I agree with some of your words. If the teacher write his skills into book, the martial art level between generations will be far more stable. But you can't ignore the fact that all major sects failed to do that (the martial level between teacher - students keep degrading). Major orthodox sect like Shaolin, wudang, emei, huashan.. all get degraded along with time till qing dynasty which is already become "normal" kungfu like we can see today, no more qi from palm, sucking energy etc

    Even if we take wudang as example like urs, priest Chongxu is failed to teach the taiji swordplay to his wudang students, which is why he only counted as half person by RWX

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eastern_Heretic View Post
    Interesting opinion. I agree with some of your words. If the teacher write his skills into book, the martial art level between generations will be far more stable. But you can't ignore the fact that all major sects failed to do that (the martial level between teacher - students keep degrading). Major orthodox sect like Shaolin, wudang, emei, huashan.. all get degraded along with time till qing dynasty which is already become "normal" kungfu like we can see today, no more qi from palm, sucking energy etc

    Even if we take wudang as example like urs, priest Chongxu is failed to teach the taiji swordplay to his wudang students, which is why he only counted as half person by RWX
    Right. Absolutely agree with your key points. In the main scheme of things, the degrading theory holds. No chance anyone from Wudang is gonna get near ZSF's level, unless they learn something else, a la ZWJ with his 9Yang. However, to me, there's still room for individuals to become better than their predecessors as long as they have access to quality materials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FeilongZ View Post
    I think there is a very good chance XLN has surpassed Lam Chiu Ying with Left-Right techniques.

    Wong Chung Yeung may be #1 among the old Greats but not likely against YG or GJ.
    I don't like WCY, but the more you explore the novels, the more it seems that WCY would hold his position even in the new age.

    During the fight against GWM, ZBT clearly stated that if WCY was still alive, there was no way GWM could last even 10 stances (not sure how many).

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyoyatika View Post
    I don't like WCY, but the more you explore the novels, the more it seems that WCY would hold his position even in the new age.

    During the fight against GWM, ZBT clearly stated that if WCY was still alive, there was no way GWM could last even 10 stances (not sure how many).
    Of course, we do need to take into account that Chow Bak Tung idolized his elder martial brother and was given to hyperbole. I think Wong Chung Yeung would win over the Golden Wheel Monk too, but it'll likely take (many) more than ten stances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Of course, we do need to take into account that Chow Bak Tung idolized his elder martial brother and was given to hyperbole. I think Wong Chung Yeung would win over the Golden Wheel Monk too, but it'll likely take (many) more than ten stances.
    It's not really that baseless, though. WCY had a very profound understanding of martial arts, which wasn't shown enough during LOCH and only revealed bits by bits during ROCH. He was very likely still holding back during the duels with the 4 Greats. I think JY didn't want to describe him as being too powerful for fear of making the 4 Greats look weak. 10 stances if hyperbole on ZBT's part but it wouldn't be unfathomable that WCY could beat GWM in less than 50 stances. WCY basically one-hit KOed OYF. Even if that was a bit of a trickery, he didn't just stab OYF in the back or fake injury to get into very close range. It was still a direct, frontal hit that disabled OYF for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    It's not really that baseless, though. WCY had a very profound understanding of martial arts, which wasn't shown enough during LOCH and only revealed bits by bits during ROCH. He was very likely still holding back during the duels with the 4 Greats. I think JY didn't want to describe him as being too powerful for fear of making the 4 Greats look weak. 10 stances if hyperbole on ZBT's part but it wouldn't be unfathomable that WCY could beat GWM in less than 50 stances. WCY basically one-hit KOed OYF. Even if that was a bit of a trickery, he didn't just stab OYF in the back or fake injury to get into very close range. It was still a direct, frontal hit that disabled OYF for years.
    Fifty strokes sounds reasonable enough to me. Ten strokes would have Wong Chung Yeung close to Dook Goo Kau Bai/Hui Juk/Janitor Monk territory, and while Wong was great, I'm not sure he was quite in *that* class.

    Poor Au Yeung Fung...he never would have guessed a "dead" man would jump out of his own coffin to strike him.

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    But YG could easily beat JLFW within 5 moves so YG stronger than WCY and the rest of Greats (include GJ)..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Western Eccentric View Post
    But YG could easily beat JLFW within 5 moves so YG stronger than WCY and the rest of Greats (include GJ)..
    There was a prolonged struggle that preceded that. When the end finally came, it came in five strokes, but we can't pretend that the struggle that came before it didn't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdenResident View Post
    It's not really that baseless, though. WCY had a very profound understanding of martial arts, which wasn't shown enough during LOCH and only revealed bits by bits during ROCH. He was very likely still holding back during the duels with the 4 Greats. I think JY didn't want to describe him as being too powerful for fear of making the 4 Greats look weak. 10 stances if hyperbole on ZBT's part but it wouldn't be unfathomable that WCY could beat GWM in less than 50 stances. WCY basically one-hit KOed OYF. Even if that was a bit of a trickery, he didn't just stab OYF in the back or fake injury to get into very close range. It was still a direct, frontal hit that disabled OYF for years.
    Fifty strokes sounds reasonable enough to me. Ten strokes would have Wong Chung Yeung close to Dook Goo Kau Bai/Hui Juk/Janitor Monk territory, and while Wong was great, I'm not sure he was quite in *that* class.

    Poor Au Yeung Fung...he never would have guessed a "dead" man would jump out of his own coffin to strike him.

    @EdenResident and @Ken Cheng:
    I think WCY could/may indeed defeat pre-16 JLFW in a few hundred stances but against post-16 JLFW with 10th level Dragon Elephant Prana Palms is another story....

    If ZBT had to rely on his vacant fists and was put on a defensive mode, I don't think WCY could do any better with his Pre-heaven skills and solitary finger against post-16 JLFW.
    Moreover, WCY's peak should ~ with Yideng's peak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    There was a prolonged struggle that preceded that. When the end finally came, it came in five strokes, but we can't pretend that the struggle that came before it didn't happen.
    The fight was >200 to <300 stances before full-powered Sad Palms was unleashed.
    If YG's SP was activated earlier in the fight, YG would have defeated JLFW much quicker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Fifty strokes sounds reasonable enough to me. Ten strokes would have Wong Chung Yeung close to Dook Goo Kau Bai/Hui Juk/Janitor Monk territory, and while Wong was great, I'm not sure he was quite in *that* class.

    Poor Au Yeung Fung...he never would have guessed a "dead" man would jump out of his own coffin to strike him.
    I think from the Condor Trilogy, only YG with full-powered Sad Palms or equipped with the HIS could defeat post-16 JLFW within 50 stances.

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    Yeeep aside YG I never think Greats beat another Greats within 20 moves..

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    WCY indeed beat OYF and destroy his Hama Gong but for me it's more sneak attack than fair duel..

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