So did Zhang Wuji surpassed Zhang Sanfeng in terms of martial arts?

[Ken Cheng]

connecting ren pulse and du pulse was not like connecting the others pulses.
training 9yang or 9yang only made your inner energy became greater.

I thought that West Poison Au Yeung Fung was able to achieve this through the practice of Reverse-9 Yum Jen Ging.

[PJ]

who needs proof for showing ZWJ has greater endurance? It's almost LOGIC. ZWJ's art are mostly conservative that last a long time. Plus, Taichi breathing further makes ZWJ be able to find 1000 stances without being tired.
In the battle against the 3 Du Generation, ZWJ actually wasn't able to win fair and square using arts. He would have to last it out. 又斗小半个时辰，张无忌体内九阳神功急速流动，圣火令上发出嗤嗤声响。少林三僧的脸色本来各自不同，这时却 都殷红如血，僧袍都鼓了起来，便似为疾风所充。但张无忌的衣衫却并无异状，这情景高下已判，倘若他是以一对 一，甚而以一敌二，早已获胜。他练的九阳真气原本浑厚无伦，再加上张三丰指点，学得太极拳中练气之法，更是愈斗愈盛，最能持久，实可再拚一两个时辰，以待对手气衰力竭。In matter of fact, the longer the stronger for ZWJ based on this quote.

Yang Guo demonstrated the same pattern with his roaring internal energy, and Yideng thought it was more impressive than the Southern Emperor was ever capable of. So it may not be immediately conclusive that Zhang Wuji has more endurance than Yang Guo.

[Ken Cheng]

I must say, we never saw a mature Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor give way in battle due to energy depletion...not even when fighting opponents who were known to be their equals in power.

[Whsie]

Yang Guo demonstrated the same pattern with his roaring internal energy, and Yideng thought it was more impressive than the Southern Emperor was ever capable of. So it may not be immediately conclusive that Zhang Wuji has more endurance than Yang Guo.

Yes, you're right. But I still think that in a battle, ZWJ would still have the advantage in endurance due to 1. Taichi by nature is far more conservative/balanced than YG's heavily yang power 2. YG doesn't have ZWJ's 太极拳中练气之法 which is an endurance propeller.

[Ken Cheng]

What are the chances that Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor could exploit Cheung Mo Gei's relative inexperience as a fighter and lack of aggression in his personality to get a quick kill on him, thereby obviating the consideration of relative endurance?

[PJ]

As a side point, I think Yang Guo the Aggressor has a better chance of giving Zhang Wuji the Conservationist trouble than Guo Jing the Conservationist. Golden Wheel Monk had more trouble with Yang Guo than Guo Jing (he feared defeat by Yang Guo in 300 stances, whereas Jin Yong said he would last 1000 stances with Guo Jing). Zhang Wuji is a similar troubled fighter, so he would probably face more trouble with Yang Guo's more complicated stances.

[Ken Cheng]

As a side point, I think Yang Guo the Aggressor has a better chance of giving Zhang Wuji the Conservationist trouble than Guo Jing the Conservationist. Golden Wheel Monk had more trouble with Yang Guo than Guo Jing (he feared defeat by Yang Guo in 300 stances, whereas Jin Yong said he would last 1000 stances with Guo Jing). Zhang Wuji is a similar troubled fighter, so he would probably face more trouble with Yang Guo's more complicated stances.

Yeung Gor should utilize the Heavy Iron Sword for extra advantage. Cheung Mo Gei has proven vulnerable to weaponry before.

One might say that to even things up, Cheung Mo Gei should get the Dragon Sabre, but how can he? The Dragon Sabre *was* the Heavy Iron Sword in its previous incarnation!

[kwekmh]

Yeung Gor should utilize the Heavy Iron Sword for extra advantage. Cheung Mo Gei has proven vulnerable to weaponry before.

One might say that to even things up, Cheung Mo Gei should get the Dragon Sabre, but how can he? The Dragon Sabre *was* the Heavy Iron Sword in its previous incarnation!

LOL, Ken, that was pretty true and funny.

Yang Guo with his Heavy Iron Sword will give Zhang Wu Ji a hard time, and I am sure Yang Guo/Guo Jing will figure out pretty soon that Zhang Wu Ji is very inexperienced.

Don't forget that not only the Sacred Fire Tablet's skills are strange, Yang Guo's sad palm is pretty strange too.

[Ken Cheng]

Don't forget that not only the Sacred Fire Tablet's skills are strange, Yang Guo's sad palm is pretty strange too.

You've reminded me that Cheung Mo Gei does have a weapon he can use against the Heavy Iron Sword: the Ming Cult's Sacred Fire Tablet. Those tablets were so hard that even the Dragon Sabre couldn't cut through them. If the Dragon Sabre couldn't damage the tablets, then the Heavy Iron Sword won't either.

[CC]

You've reminded me that Cheung Mo Gei does have a weapon he can use against the Heavy Iron Sword: the Ming Cult's Sacred Fire Tablet. Those tablets were so hard that even the Dragon Sabre couldn't cut through them. If the Dragon Sabre couldn't damage the tablets, then the Heavy Iron Sword won't either.

Yeah but if you block the HIS with the tablets, I think your hand is gonna hurt.

Its not wise to block or have your weapon connect with the HIS.

Best to throw projectiles. Use the weight of the HIS against the wielder.

[RongYingMin]

I thought that West Poison Au Yeung Fung was able to achieve this through the practice of Reverse-9 Yum Jen Ging.

No, I don't think so.
I'll post a directly translated passage from the original edition, chapter 19.
Pardon my awful English and ability in comprehending Chinese, I tried my best to keep the meaning close to the origin.

It turned out that at that time, the training of 9 Yang Shengong of Zhang Wuji was come off, the yin energy and the yang energy inside his body were unified, the fire and the water were merged. Being confined in the tightly stretched cloth bag, he felt as if there were dozens of masters massaging all his vital acupoints, and inside his body, the energy raised vehemently, dozens of magical entrances (xuan guan) were broken through. He felt extremely easeful as if there was a mercury current flowing all over his body.

Such fortune had never been seen before, the treasured bag was broken, so from then onwards, there probably wouldn't be anyone being so lucky to have the same thing done like that.

Yeah but if you block the HIS with the tablets, I think your hand is gonna hurt.
Its not wise to block or have your weapon connect with the HIS.
Best to throw projectiles. Use the weight of the HIS against the wielder.

with Taichi sword arts, blocking HIS using sacred tablets was not impossible.
This matter of connecting Ren Du 2 pulses, Jin Yong described in detail in Linked Cities, chapter 16.
He wrote that, normally, people learning most elite qi gong techniques had to spend at least decades (maybe 30 - 40 years?) to do the same thing as Wuji did at the age of 21 - 22.

[Whsie]

(fan yao is probably considerably less then 20% of ZWJ, since the weakest of the du monks was less then 30%{all three monks were 33.3% of ZWJ}and one du monk = yang xiao and bai yewang). if ZWJ had to recieve two or more or GJ's or YG's strikes in succesion, he would have trouble. unless he can use taiji to redirect the force.

I disagree. 1 Du Generation as you said is 33.3% of ZWJ. Though that one Du Generation is superior to 2 Elties of Ming Cult, but the main one doing internal competition is Yin Tian Zheng and he was able to barely hold on. Of course there is also Yang Xiao on the outside throwing attacks everywhere. However, surely more than 3/4th of the internal is focused on YTZ. Overall, I'm still thinking 20% is a fair % to rate Fang Yiao(because half of a Du Generation would be 15%, but then Fang Yiao is clearly over 50%).

[Western Eccentric]

You've reminded me that Cheung Mo Gei does have a weapon he can use against the Heavy Iron Sword: the Ming Cult's Sacred Fire Tablet. Those tablets were so hard that even the Dragon Sabre couldn't cut through them. If the Dragon Sabre couldn't damage the tablets, then the Heavy Iron Sword won't either.

Of course Heavy Sword could since Yang Guo have the method how to "generate" and maximalize his power within Heavy Sword..

[Western Eccentric]

Well I never think Wuji ever surpassing Z3F even in the end of HSDS..

[Ken Cheng]

Well I never think Wuji ever surpassing Z3F even in the end of HSDS..

Their inner power might be comparable, but we're talking about 85+ years of martial arts cultivation and experience vs. about 10-15 years.

[Western Eccentric]

Their inner power might be comparable, but we're talking about 85+ years of martial arts cultivation and experience vs. about 10-15 years.

Well but Yang Guo after 7 years ocean training I believe could match any of Old Greats in terms of internal and external skill which at that time he only have less than 15 years of practice and 10 years later he could beat one of the Old Greats..

[Stance]

Their inner power might be comparable, but we're talking about 85+ years of martial arts cultivation and experience vs. about 10-15 years.

What experience did Z3F have? We never saw him fought anybody and he hardly ever left wudang?

[Ken Cheng]

What experience did Z3F have? We never saw him fought anybody and he hardly ever left wudang?

He was renowned in wulin and nobody could defeat him in a fair, straight-up fight. The only detriment I can see is that he was 90 years old when the story began and over 100 when it ended, so old age might have sapped his stamina, but nobody had seen more of the wulin landscape than he had over his lifetime.

[Western Eccentric]

Based on their skillset Wuji ~ Z3F even slightly better IMHO but in terms of "battle prowess" and "combat experience" he lag behind Z3F..

[St3v3]

What experience did Z3F have? We never saw him fought anybody and he hardly ever left wudang?

Z3F killed Gangxiang (ZM subordinate) with one strike when Mongols ambushed Wudang and injured XM elders to take back Kid Wuji

It is a pity there is no other detail about ZSF peak. It is only story telling that he already become no 1 wulin and start his Wudang school at 60s