So did Zhang Wuji surpassed Zhang Sanfeng in terms of martial arts?

[RongYingMin]

These following things would probably happen when Zhang Wuji fight Guo Jing or Yang Guo:

1. GJ/YG used hl18p/sad palms to give a distant attack.
2. ZWJ used Sacred Flamed Tablets' divine techniques to dodge, then approached GJ/YG. Or he could use QKDNY + Taichi Fist to shift GJ/YG's palm force to counter-attack.
3. After approaching, ZWJ used 7Damaging Fist or Taichi Fist to beat GJ/YG.
4. GJ/YG both didn't have energy shield as Wuji did, so internal organs of theirs would be badly injured.
5. ZWJ would be victorious.

[IcyFox]

ZWJ ~ Z3F as MA practitioner. Imagen what Z3F could do if he had QKDY (plus his knowlegde in MA).

Then imagine Xiao Feng with Yi Jin Jing. From the viewpoint of the storyline, that's unnecessary and to a certain extent, irrelevant.

[siegefried]

Then imagine Xiao Feng with Yi Jin Jing. From the viewpoint of the storyline, that's unnecessary and to a certain extent, irrelevant.

Imagine Xiao Feng with XZ and DY's skills and internal energy. Bye bye sweeper....

[Whsie]

Agree. How about ZWJ at 25 and a great at 50-60s?

Actually, ZWJ is about 21 or 22 during the end of the story. It was mentioned somewhere.
ZWJ should actually be a bit more than the regular Great and about the same as YG, GJ, and Jue Yuan as shown from the passage on Chapter 24 HSDS (which is translated). And the GJ compared to is already considerably stronger than the 50-60 years old Great in LOCH times and a bit stronger than the 90 years old Post 16 Years Great.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't agree with you, Senior Master Ken Cheng.
- Using 9Yang Shen Gong and QKDNY can't be called "CHEAT", they're REAL fingting techniques. To a certain extent, QKDNY's essence is rather like Tai Chi Fist's - "using enemy's force to counter-attack him".

It's not "cheating" in an immoral sense, but it is a shortcut in the sense that the user doesn't come into the fight with great martial arts technique, but needs to crib it from the opponent's martial arts in mid-fight. That's a bit worrisome, especially since it only seems to work when the opponent is of lower caliber. Against another Great, I'm not sure it will work.

- He did NOT fight a great-level fighter but he DID fight 3 close-to-great fighters' formation.

See my other post. Fighting formations isn't exactly like fighting a Great. Formations have built-in vulnerabilities that individual Greats don't.

- He used QKDNY, Taichi techniques and Persian Ming Cult's techniques to overcome Zhou Zhiruo's 9 Yin techniques, so it wouldn't matter if he had fights with Guo Jing, Yang Guo and others.

Remember how weak Chow Chi Yerk is compared to Gwok Jing or Yeung Gor, however. Ten Chow Chi Yerks might not be the equal or a Gwok Jing or a Yeung Gor.

[Ken Cheng]

These following things would probably happen when Zhang Wuji fight Guo Jing or Yang Guo:

2. ZWJ used Sacred Flamed Tablets' divine techniques to dodge, then approached GJ/YG. Or he could use QKDNY + Taichi Fist to shift GJ/YG's palm force to counter-attack.

You're assuming this will actually work. Don't forget: Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at their peaks are no worse than the equal of Cheung Mo Gei in inner power and probably better in fighting techniques. Shifting the Hong Lung 18 Palms or Sad Palms is easier said than done, even with Cheung Mo Gei's package of martial arts.

3. After approaching, ZWJ used 7Damaging Fist or Taichi Fist to beat GJ/YG.

Cheung Mo Gei didn't really master 7 Seung Fist to a high degree, and his Tai Chi Fist was raw. It was good enough against Ah 2 and Ah 3, but Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor would be an altogether different kettle of fish. I give Cheung Mo Gei a 50% chance of success at most.

4. GJ/YG both didn't have energy shield as Wuji did, so internal organs of theirs would be badly injured.

Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor's martial arts did not feature the kind of body shield that the 9 Yeung Jen Ging provided, but their inner power gave them a certain amount of protection that was quite formidable in its own right. Remember how Fok Do rained blows ineffectively on Gwok Jing's chest during that early ROCH fight at the Chung Yeung Temple, and how Yeung Gor was able to shrug off Ying Goo's poisonous palms? Naturally, Cheung Mo Gei was much more powerful than the likes of Fok Do or Ying Goo and would certainly do damage, but I don't think he'd do any more damage than, say, the Golden Wheel Monk would, and we've seen that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor can take Golden Wheel Monk strikes and live to tell about it.

Moreover, Cheung Mo Gei's 9 Yeung shield was formidable, but not invincible. It could be penetrated by sharp objects, and sufficient inner power (i.e. the collective might of those Lama Buddhists that Chiu Mun's father and brother sent to take Chiu Mun back from Cheung Mo Gei's side) can overcome it. It's at least possible that Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor have enough inner power to overcome Cheung Mo Gei's shield.

5. ZWJ would be victorious.

He might. I give him a 50% chance, but it's not a sure thing by any means. His lack of experience will hurt him the most; he might actually have the edge in raw power.

[Whsie]

You're assuming this will actually work. Don't forget: Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor at their peaks are no worse than the equal of Cheung Mo Gei in inner power and probably better in fighting techniques. Shifting the Hong Lung 18 Palms or Sad Palms is easier said than done, even with Cheung Mo Gei's package of martial arts.


Cheung Mo Gei didn't really master 7 Seung Fist to a high degree, and his Tai Chi Fist was raw. It was good enough against Ah 2 and Ah 3, but Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor would be an altogehter different kettle of fish. I give Cheung Mo Gei a 50% chance of success at most.

First of all, ZWJ DID MASTER 7 INJURY FIST just by looking and understanding it. When ZWJ used the the 7 Injury Fist to blast the tree 20 feet away, that Kong Dong Elder came back jaw dropped. Based on what he saw, it was indeed the 7 Injury Fist at the highest level.

Even though ZWJ's Taichi isn't neccesary at Z3F's level yet, but ZWJ should be more than 50% because after the Wudang mountain incident, ZWJ stayed back a few months to study martial arts with our grandmaster Z3F. Furhtermore, Z3F helped ZWJ combine QKDLY Level 7, Taichi(ZWJ also learned Taichi breathing giving extra endurance), 9 Yang Chi into one, making it a new unique and extremely powerful art.

Another thing that you forgot is the Sacred Fire Art. JY SPECIFICALLY said that even if the 1 of the Du monks were to fight one on one with ZWJ, the monk would get screwed over by the wierdness(one of the reasons why the 3 Monks were able to counter ZWJ was because the book said that Buddhism Art counters "demon" arts). When ZWJ used it against the Wudang heros, JY specifically said that the Wudang arts are superior, but because of the wierdness factor, the Wudang Heros had trouble. So what does that mean? It means the wierdness factor applies to all, not just to weak fighters. So I don't see why YG and GJ wouldn't have some trouble at first.

With ZWJ's art, it's hard, but possible to dissapate YG or GJ's art. If you... use the 9 Yang chi to absorb a certain %, use Taichi and QKDLY each to dissolve parts of the palm energy, the resulting energy wouldn't be a trouble for ZWJ to handle. Take the palm energy into pieces. Or, store 10 of them and reflect a grand slam back, which ZWJ was able to do so against Fan Yiao's 10 palm energies, which was described MUCH more powerful than XF's, YG's, or GJ's palm energy. The only thing is that it required ZWJ to use Level 7 of QKDLY.

[Ken Cheng]

Or, store 10 of them and reflect a grand slam back, which ZWJ was able to do so against Fan Yiao's 10 palm energies, which was described MUCH more powerful than XF's, YG's, or GJ's palm energy.

I don't think it's possible for Fan Yiu to have palm energy greater than Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, or Yeung Gor's.

[K2Grey]

See my other post. Fighting formations isn't exactly like fighting a Great. Formations have built-in vulnerabilities that individual Greats don't.

If the formation fights a Great to a draw, however, then it can be safely considered to be Great-level, regardless of whatever intrinsic vulnerabilities a formation may have, since obviously the Great was unable to exploit those vulnerabilities enough to obtain victory.

However I wonder as to how people can conclude that the 3 Du monks formation is Great level, and then open the question of whether ZWJ is inferior to a Great. Since the whole basis for the 3 Du monks formation being equal to a Great is that ZWJ was evenly matched with it and ZWJ was supposed to be a Great.

I mean, there's a certain amount of circular reasoning here. Like when someone points out that ZWJ owned Fan Yao and that means he is better than a Great. But then someone says that Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great. But their reason for why Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great is because ZWJ owned him and ZWJ=Great. So it goes in circles...

[Ken Cheng]

If the formation fights a Great to a draw, however, then it can be safely considered to be Great-level, regardless of whatever intrinsic vulnerabilities a formation may have, since obviously the Great was unable to exploit those vulnerabilities enough to obtain victory.

My impression of formations is that if there is a formation, something always goes wrong with the formation that causes it to break down. Didn't that pretty much happen every time we saw the 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation (or any Cheun Jen Sect Formation) in use?

A Great could get careless and suffer similar consequences, I suppose, but it's easier for one person to coordinate his own actions than for three, five, or seven people to coordinate theirs.

However I wonder as to how people can conclude that the 3 Du monks formation is Great level, and then open the question of whether ZWJ is inferior to a Great. Since the whole basis for the 3 Du monks formation being equal to a Great is that ZWJ was evenly matched with it and ZWJ was supposed to be a Great.

I mean, there's a certain amount of circular reasoning here. Like when someone points out that ZWJ owned Fan Yao and that means he is better than a Great. But then someone says that Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great. But their reason for why Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great is because ZWJ owned him and ZWJ=Great. So it goes in circles...

A great part of the problem is Jin Yong's own inconsistency in writing these things sometimes.

[Whsie]

I don't think it's possible for Fan Yiu to have palm energy greater than Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, or Yeung Gor's.

yes, Fan Yiao is far weaker than GJ, YG, or XF, but.... what about 10-20 palm energies which are each about 20% of a Great? That power is a level that exceeds XF or YG even with palm styles. The palm energy being reflected was as being able to kill someone immedietely in horrible conditions with all your body parts broken. The condition would be so bad that you wouldn't even split blood out.
Here is the passage: 张无忌运起乾坤大挪移心法中第七层功夫，将他掌力渐渐积蓄，突
然间大喝一声，反震出去，便如一座大湖在山洪爆发时储满了洪水，猛地里湖堤崩决，洪水
急冲而出，将苦头陀送来的掌力尽数倒回。这是将对方十余掌的力道归并成为一掌拍出，世
上原无如此大力。若头陀倘若受实了，势须立时腕骨、臂骨、肩骨、肋骨一齐折断，连血也
喷不出来，当场成为一团血肉模糊，死得惨不可言。
This showed the lethalness of the 10+ Fan Yiao Palms which is SUPERIOR to what anything XF and YG so far can do based on what I read.

[Whsie]

A Great could get careless and suffer similar consequences, I suppose, but it's easier for one person to coordinate his own actions than for three, five, or seven people to coordinate theirs.

Generally speaking you're correct, but this case is extremely limited in the Du Monks case because they have practiced their Demon Taming Circle for over 20+ years. They have reached the point of thinking and fighting as one.

[Ken Cheng]

yes, Fan Yiao is far weaker than GJ, YG, or XF, but.... what about 10-20 palm energies which are each about 20% of a Great? That power is a level that exceeds XF or YG even with palm styles. The palm energy being reflected was as being able to kill someone immedietely in horrible conditions with all your body parts broken. The condition would be so bad that you wouldn't even split blood out.
Here is the passage: 张无忌运起乾坤大挪移心法中第七层功夫，将他掌力渐渐积蓄，突
然间大喝一声，反震出去，便如一座大湖在山洪爆发时储满了洪水，猛地里湖堤崩决，洪水
急冲而出，将苦头陀送来的掌力尽数倒回。这是将对方十余掌的力道归并成为一掌拍出，世
上原无如此大力。若头陀倘若受实了，势须立时腕骨、臂骨、肩骨、肋骨一齐折断，连血也
喷不出来，当场成为一团血肉模糊，死得惨不可言。
This showed the lethalness of the 10+ Fan Yiao Palms which is SUPERIOR to what anything XF and YG so far can do based on what I read.

That just seems weird to me...and very much at odds with everything else known about the abilities of these characters.

PJ and CC might just want to consider Fan Yiu for their "underrated wulin celebrities" roasts.

[Whsie]

I mean, there's a certain amount of circular reasoning here. Like when someone points out that ZWJ owned Fan Yao and that means he is better than a Great. But then someone says that Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great. But their reason for why Fan Yao is much inferior to a Great is because ZWJ owned him and ZWJ=Great. So it goes in circles...

I hope you're not talking about me because I NEVER said Fan Yiao was near a Great at all. I was just making the point of 10+ Fan Yiao Palm Energies are superior to what YG, XF's 1 palm energy can offer up. Again, this is pointed out already in post 31.

[Whsie]

That just seems weird to me...and very much at odds with everything else known about the abilities of these characters.

Why does it seem wierd? Do keep in note that to store up 10+ palm energies required ZWJ's extreme useage of Level 7 QKDLY, so it's pushing ZWJ's abilities to the near limit.

[Ken Cheng]

Why does it seem wierd? Do keep in note that to store up 10+ palm energies required ZWJ's extreme useage of Level 7 QKDLY, so it's pushing ZWJ's abilities to the near limit.

It's weird because this is *Fan Yiu*, who is a pretty good fighter in his own right, but shouldn't be performing martial arts feats (especially power feats) that even the Greats can't do. The Fan Yiu/Yeung Siu class of fighter was a few levels below the Greats, and having a fighter of that class push a Great to his limit is just...well, weird.

[Whsie]

It's weird because this is *Fan Yiu*, who is a pretty good fighter in his own right, but shouldn't be performing martial arts feats (especially power feats) that even the Greats can't do. The Fan Yiu/Yeung Siu class of fighter was a few levels below the Greats, and having a fighter of that class push a Great to his limit is just...well, weird.

Wait, wait, what do you mean performing martial arts feats that Greats can't do? All Fan Yiao was doing was firing one palm energy after another at ZWJ. He fired about 10 seperate palm energies. ZWJ stored one at a time and then reflected the whole 10 palm energies into one gigantic palm energy all back at Fan Yiao.
ZWJ didn't neccesary have to store up 10 palm energies of Fan Yiao to defeat Fan Yiao, but I guess he just decided to. So in a way, ZWJ forced himself to use his limit. It was only the TASK of holding and reflecting 10 palm energies that forced ZWJ to his limits, not neccesary Fan Yiao making ZWJ fighting to his limits.

[Exodus]

Why does it seem wierd? Do keep in note that to store up 10+ palm energies required ZWJ's extreme useage of Level 7 QKDLY, so it's pushing ZWJ's abilities to the near limit.

it doesn't make sense it's like I punching you ten times and you be still be able to take it but one blow from Tyson and you are done...

and ZWJ would probably lose in a fight with YG or GJ

[Ken Cheng]

Wait, wait, what do you mean performing martial arts feats that Greats can't do? All Fan Yiao was doing was firing one palm energy after another at ZWJ. He fired about 10 seperate palm energies. ZWJ stored one at a time and then reflected the whole 10 palm energies into one gigantic palm energy all back at Fan Yiao

Ah, OK. I misunderstood what you wrote then. I thought you were saying that Fan Yiu was attacking Cheung Mo Gei with palms that *each* was more powerful than any palm that Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, or Yeung Gor could throw. That weirded me out.

If I understand you correctly now, what you're saying is plausible, but although the aggreggate amount of kinetic force of all of Fan Yiu's palms might be greater than any one palm of Kiu Fung, Gwok Jing, or Yeung Gor, might having all that power strike at Cheung Mo Gei in (one blow) which KF, GJ, and YG could do, but FY couldn't, rather than one at a time, make a difference?

[Whsie]

it doesn't make sense it's like I punching you ten times and you be still be able to take it but one blow from Tyson and you are done...

and ZWJ would probably lose in a fight with YG or GJ

I would vote YG or GJ only because of more experience on their parts.

That's not how it is working.... (plus, your scale is wrong. Fan Yiao is ~ 20% of a Great. Tyson compared to regular you or me is defitnitely greater than that)It's more like you (who is 20% of Tyson) punching me 10 times separetly. Each time, I would use QKDLY to redirect and store that energy. In the end, I would store 10 of those. I would then make them into one and reflect it all back you. In this case it is quantity over quality where 10 20% Tyson punches combined into one is superior to a 100% Tyson punch. THAT is how it works.