For the love of WUXIA, let's discuss the REAL merit of SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan

[PJ]

In my upcoming article about the SWORD GOD, one of my goals will be to present where Zhuo Bufan fits in the Ultimate Ranking in the Jin Yong universe. Rest assured that this ranking of the SWORD GOD will be the most reasonable deduction after considerably careful analysis of information from Jin Yong's novels.

Which is why I have started this topic, in hopes of gathering AND discussing our SERIOUS, SINCERE thoughts about where SWORD GOD fits with the rest of the Jin Yong universe.

Please support your thoughts with information and evidence from the novels, as I certainly will.

Currently, I believe that SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan is around the same level as Murong Fu, Su Xinghe, and the Yellow-Eyebrowed Monk (Reverend Huangmei). Many of Zhuo Bufan's illustrations of his martial arts proficiency cannot be easily compared to others in DGSD; however I have tried my best to compare them where possible. Here are some of my reasons:

-It has been established in the novel that Senior Boss Wu (Wu Laoda) is weaker than Murong Fu BUT not much weaker. Murong Fu was impressed with the latter, and the narrator stated that Murong Fu would be unable to defeat Boss Wu in a short amount of time. When Boss Wu intercepted the head thrown by SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan, he could not fathom how anyone could have executed the guy in a flash. Boss Wu even thought that perhaps Tianshan Tonglao had done the feat. This means that Boss Wu is definitely not up to par with SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan, in fact far from it. Thus, the difference between Murong Fu and SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan should be minimum.

-The crowd of experts from the 72 Island/36 Caves cheered in amazement on no less than three occasions when witnessing the displays of SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan's fluency in swordplay: the first time when SWORD GOD exquisitely sliced the table into 9 identical pieces, the second time when he displayed the sword halo, and lastly when he thrusted his delicate blade one foot deep into a granite pole. Previously, the crowd had cheered once when Murong Fu displayed graceful lightness kung fu. The level of cheer seems to be comparable for both Murong Fu and SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan, so once again the difference in their abilities should be minimum.

-Taoist Priest Buping, who is slightly weaker than SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan, took the crowd of experts by storm. Upon introduction, Buping was described as an earth-shattering figure in wulin, as recognized by both Boss Wu and Cave Leader An (Leader An had better lightness kung fu than Boss Wu). Buping was explicitly stated by the narrator to not think a dime's worth of the 72 Islands/36 Caves organization, and his authority over them is evident from the start. Furthermore, Murong Fu thought that Buping's martial arts were "very good," more so than he thought of the rest of the Islands/Caves organizations (including Boss Wu who was only slightly behind Murong Fu). Buping could exercise command over Boss Wu as he wished, an authority that even Murong Fu could not dream of. Which means the difference between Murong Fu and Taoist Priest Buping should be minimum. And, Buping was weaker than Zhuo Bufan (stated by the narrator).

-Another impressive feat of Taoist Priest Buping is his recognition of the subtle differences between Beiming Shengong and Huagong Dafa, WHICH JIUMOZHI AND DUAN ZHENGMING WERE NOT ABLE TO DO. Both Jiumozhi and Duan Zhengming mistook Duan Yu's Beiming energy for Huagong Dafa, while Taoist Priest Buping recognized that Duan Yu's energy was not quite Huagong Dafa, even thought he couldn't pinpoint exactly what the source of the energy was, but his recognition of the difference already showcases his broad knowledge of martial arts. In Jiumozhi's case, Jin Yong wrote: "Although his knowledge is very broad, he nevertheless made an error by mixing up Beiming Shengong with Huagong Dafa." Contrast that with Taoist Priest Buping's description: "With his abundant knowledge and experience, Buping could tell that Duan Yu's energy-sucking skill was quite different from the infamous Huagong Dafa. However since he had never tasted the texture of Huagong Dafa, he was unable to say just what the source of this energy was."

[Ardor]

Can we have the translated exerpts of ZBF's fight with MRF and XZ so that we can judge ourselves?

[PJ]

By attempting to finally demystify SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan to the wuxia community, I realize this will probably end his status as a mysterious, hyperglorified figure. But the fact is that this wild glorification cannot be sustained for long, as some serious wuxia fans will become more annoyed than entertained, and we have seen a sharp decrease in participation in quality discussion lately. Also, SWORD GOD has already achieved significant honor by winning the Mysterious Personalities Survivor Game as the most mysterious person in wuxia, beating out more popular and well-established candidates such as the Sweeper Monk, Dugu Qiubai, and Wang Chongyang. I think the due has been paid to recognize his awesomeness; now it is time to finally spread his true character to the rest of the community.

Now, you know and I know that not all of Zhuo Bufan's encounters in the novel are so glorious. I will not hesitate to reveal those details in this topic, so that we see all sides of the equation in order to truly judge the SWORD GOD for what he really is capable of. I will reveal those details when I have more time later.

[PJ]

Can we have the translated exerpts of ZBF's fight with MRF and XZ so that we can judge ourselves?

I would like to translate the exerpts; however I do not believe that I have the fluency to do justice to the excellent textual coverage of chapters 33 to 38. Therefore I can only hope that someone with more linguistic expertise will do the honor (perhaps CC, whom I believe possess high proficiency in English-Chinese translation).

[QF]

I would like to translate the exerpts

Dude, you just mis spelled excerpts!!

I don't know if I can respect you like I did before

HAHAHA



QF

[kyss of the sword]

actually MRF was far behind zhuo bufan, i put zhuo bufan alongside the shaolin abbots generation and DCQ, or slightly higher. the same for taoist buping and cui lianhui.

[soulmelody]

i think Sword God Zhuo Bufan is = to DYQ

[yittz]

Just bringing something into the discussion:

After XZ pawned sword god. MRF was not afraid to fight XZ.

Could be stupidity, to save face etc. But how much does ZBF weigh in MRF's eyes?

[PJ]

Dude, you just mis spelled excerpts!!

I don't know if I can respect you like I did before

HAHAHA



QF

Hey, quit stealing my idiosyncrasy

[PJ]

Just bringing something into the discussion:

After XZ pawned sword god. MRF was not afraid to fight XZ.

Could be stupidity, to save face etc. But how much does ZBF weigh in MRF's eyes?

I think Murong Fu was more annoyed than anything. Xuzhu's communication skill really sucked at the time, uttering random words that didn't make much sense. Murong Fu probably took what he said the wrong way. And besides, I'm sure he could tell that Xuzhu was a kind person who is really a confused kid at heart. So not much danger in just talking/threatening.

[PJ]

actually MRF was far behind zhuo bufan, i put zhuo bufan alongside the shaolin abbots generation and DCQ, or slightly higher. the same for taoist buping and cui lianhui.

Any more evidence (other than what I posted) to support your ranking?

[kyss of the sword]

MRF was simply quite a bit behind guys like DYQ, DCQ and the abbots generation of shaolin. zhuo bufan also defeated him in a few stance(using his 28gods and demon exchange) and after MRF knocked DY into the well, zhuo bufan appeared and sliced a word on to his own shirt, MRF couldn't even follow his sword movement and was scared stiff, practically. zhuo bufan should be in the same range as the experts mentioned above at least. MRf was intelligent and skilled, but lacked inner power to compete with these guys.

[CC]

MRF was simply quite a bit behind guys like DYQ, DCQ and the abbots generation of shaolin. zhuo bufan also defeated him in a few stance(using his 28gods and demon exchange) and after MRF knocked DY into the well, zhuo bufan appeared and sliced a word on to his own shirt, MRF couldn't even follow his sword movement and was scared stiff, practically. zhuo bufan should be in the same range as the experts mentioned above at least. MRf was intelligent and skilled, but lacked inner power to compete with these guys.

PJ!!!

Just bringing something into the discussion:

After XZ pawned sword god. MRF was not afraid to fight XZ.

Could be stupidity, to save face etc. But how much does ZBF weigh in MRF's eyes?.

One thing about MRF and his retinue is that throughout the book, they were never scared or really backed down from fights with people more powerful.


Now on SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan's fighting level. I think it would not be off to put him alongside the better Xuan generation monks.

JMZ could injure senior Xuan generation monks seriously in 1 single stance (see his Nian Hua Zhi exchange with Xuan Du). The rookie Xu Zhu was about as good as JMZ (much better in some aspects in fact), so even if Zhuo was defeated quickly by Xu Zhu, any Xuan generation monk (except maybe Xuan Ci) would also be defeated by Xu Zhu easily.

Add to the above, PJ's earlier posts about how Zhuo was significantly better then the Island Elders who were only slightly behind MRF, it would not be wrong to put Zhuo at Xuan monk level as a minimum.

[PJ]

Just bringing something into the discussion:

After XZ pawned sword god. MRF was not afraid to fight XZ.

Could be stupidity, to save face etc. But how much does ZBF weigh in MRF's eyes?

In addition to what CC and I have responded already, I would like to bring up another point. The Premier Monster of Pearl Cliff (Zhuya Daguai) had witnessed Xuzhu's awesome curing of people's Sheng Si Fu, which was previously only possible by Tianshan Tonglao. And yet, the Premier Monster still did not feel threatened by Xuzhu at all, and he went on to strike Xuzhu's head freely. AND YET, when the Premier Monster witnessed SWORD GOD's accuracy and speed in swordplay, he DID NOT DARE act rude towards SWORD GOD. SWORD GOD then proceeded to tap the two monsters of Pearl Cliff gently on the shoulder (I think), which made them lose control of their movement and inflicted pain in their internal body. And still the two monsters, who acted so aggressively towards Xuzhu, did not dare to say anything towards SWORD GOD.

Basically, wuxia characters are idiots when it comes to their reaction towards, and estimation of, super powers.

[kyss of the sword]

Any more evidence (other than what I posted) to support your ranking?

not chinese literate so am forced to depend on my reading by begging for some scraps of translating by hounered beings. by the way, which of the translation you did was 100% from novel, cause some of it was said to be suspect .i may have been fooled by some excellent writing.. i put some of it together in the translation side.

[Bai Qi44]

Dude, you just mis spelled excerpts!!

I don't know if I can respect you like I did before

HAHAHA



QF

OT - http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=misspell Ironic, isn't it?

[PJ]

by the way, which of the translation you did was 100% from novel

Nothing beyond post #28 from Ardor's topic "SWORD GOD" Zhuo Bufan

However, where I have declared my translation/analysis to of ernst effort to showcase the TRUE and REAL abilities of SWORD GOD, it is for real.

i may have been fooled by some excellent writing.

Oh, Thank you for your kind praise. To be honest though, that first "fanfic" of SWORD GOD by me was trying to mimick Gu Long's writing style as much as possible in order to avoid confusions (i.e. so that readers will know it is real Jin Yong writing): I tried to use short paragraphs and redundant thought provokers. Case in point, the opening sentence of my fanfic: The night was dark. Nights are usually dark, but tonight was frighteningly dark. Anyone who came out tonight would want to escape into the comfort of visible light.

[yittz]

Was ZBF in Lav's ranking? So where would he sit in it now that we have discussed him?

It's amazing how crap MRF is with time

Before I thought he is above greats, now more and more fighters are above him.

To think he is not much better than a cave/island leader...

[Neo26988]

In addition to what CC and I have responded already, I would like to bring up another point. The Premier Monster of Pearl Cliff (Zhuya Daguai) had witnessed Xuzhu's awesome curing of people's Sheng Si Fu, which was previously only possible by Tianshan Tonglao. And yet, the Premier Monster still did not feel threatened by Xuzhu at all, and he went on to strike Xuzhu's head freely. AND YET, when the Premier Monster witnessed SWORD GOD's accuracy and speed in swordplay, he DID NOT DARE act rude towards SWORD GOD. SWORD GOD then proceeded to tap the two monsters of Pearl Cliff gently on the shoulder (I think), which made them lose control of their movement and inflicted pain in their internal body. And still the two monsters, who acted so aggressively towards Xuzhu, did not dare to say anything towards SWORD GOD.

Basically, wuxia characters are idiots when it comes to their reaction towards, and estimation of, super powers.

Probably due to both XZ and ZBF's demeanours being so different.

[CC]

Was ZBF in Lav's ranking? So where would he sit in it now that we have discussed him?

It's amazing how crap MRF is with time

Before I thought he is above greats, now more and more fighters are above him.

To think he is not much better than a cave/island leader...

I don't think ZBF was in Lav's first ranking. One of the reasons why we think he is too often overlooked.

I'll tag him at Xuan monk level for now.