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Thread: Shaolin and Celestial Dragon Temple: diplomatic relations?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Shaolin and Celestial Dragon Temple: diplomatic relations?

    During DGSD, the Shaolin Temple in the Northern Sung Kingdom and the Celestial Dragon Tempe in the Dali Kingdom represented the pinnacles of Buddhist martial arts in East Asia. Moreover, they were both also prominent schools of Buddhism. Were there diplomatic relations between the Shaolin Temple and Celestial Dragon Temple? Did they have meetings to discuss Buddhism or martial arts?

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    probably before the fight shaolin,yes. But when the tian nong monks saw how powerul JMZ is, stronger then Kurong many times, they peed in their robes,thinking : omg such powerful monk, then at shaolin,with arrival of sweeps and Xuzhu, the tianong monks fainted and shitted in their robes thinking, holy cow! shaolin peeps can own JMZ like dust! God its so embarassing, thereafter no more diplomatic relations

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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    During DGSD, the Shaolin Temple in the Northern Sung Kingdom and the Celestial Dragon Tempe in the Dali Kingdom represented the pinnacles of Buddhist martial arts in East Asia. Moreover, they were both also prominent schools of Buddhism. Were there diplomatic relations between the Shaolin Temple and Celestial Dragon Temple? Did they have meetings to discuss Buddhism or martial arts?

    Generally, the schools of buddhism never get involved with with anything or anyone outside their "world" except in jy and other wuxia universe, including palaces where it seems they are into every matters and everybody businesses. However, there should be a representative of each school should the time calls for such ties. Just like countries they have diplomat or ambassador. I remember the RoCH edition i read that jy mentioned and introduced each name and hierarchy (but i forgot who's who and from where, heh!) during guoxiong birthday, when they turned up to expose huodo.

    sheraldine lim

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheraldine
    Generally, the schools of buddhism never get involved with with anything or anyone outside their "world" except in jy and other wuxia universe, including palaces
    There is, perhaps, one famous exception. The T'ang Dynasty during the time of Emperor Lee Sai Mun (Li Shihmin) was said to have employed Shaolin monks as auxiliary troops or imperial bodyguards. This might be legend or historical fact, but has been neither proved nor disproved.

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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    There is, perhaps, one famous exception. The T'ang Dynasty during the time of Emperor Lee Sai Mun (Li Shihmin) was said to have employed Shaolin monks as auxiliary troops or imperial bodyguards. This might be legend or historical fact, but has been neither proved nor disproved.

    very likely, Ken, after all, lee sai mun is (legendary) known to link with buddhism. But opps, we seemed slightly off topic here. but since we are at it, i might as well add there is no harm the monks earned extra income and did some national service for their emperor and country, is there? just like the new zealander army guys did when they played extras during the LOTR trilogy.

    sheraldine

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheraldine
    very likely, Ken, after all, lee sai mun is (legendary) known to link with buddhism. But opps, we seemed slightly off topic here. but since we are at it, i might as well add there is no harm the monks earned extra income and did some national service for their emperor and country, is there? just like the new zealander army guys did when they played extras during the LOTR trilogy.

    sheraldine
    No harm at all, although some Buddhists might have criticized the monks' involvement in temporal affairs rather than concentrating on spiritual enlightenment. This particular argument frequently comes up when government and religion mix.

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    Banned strife_au's Avatar
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    Buddhism like Confucianism or Taoism did have major influence over the empire.
    Especially Confucianism in the early Empire.
    Buddhism could have major political infuences if the Emperor's didn't restrict their practices such as in the late Tang dynasty I believe.


    :]
    Last edited by strife_au; 11-05-06 at 10:25 PM.

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    Senior Member sheraldine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    some Buddhists might have criticized the monks' involvement in temporal affairs rather than concentrating on spiritual enlightenment. This particular argument frequently comes up when government and religion mix.

    And this brought me back on topic with your other link "moments jy might have thought wish i thought of that".... hahaha.... !

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strife_au
    Buddhism like Confucianism or Taoism did have major influence over the empire.
    Especially Confucianism in the early Empire.
    Buddhism could have major political infuences if the Emperor's didn't restrict their practices such as in the late Tang dynasty I believe.


    :]
    Confucianism was always a secular belief system rather than a religion with a deity, so its involvement in government is not surprising. In fact, Confucianism is more like a set of social and governmental principles rather than a set of spiritual beliefs.

    On the other hand, Buddhism and Taoism are religions in the conventional sense: they both explore the mystic, the supernatural, and the transcendental. Government and society are regarded as immaterial by strict practitioners of Buddhism and Taoism.

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    Banned strife_au's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Confucianism was always a secular belief system rather than a religion with a deity, so its involvement in government is not surprising. In fact, Confucianism is more like a set of social and governmental principles rather than a set of spiritual beliefs.

    On the other hand, Buddhism and Taoism are religions in the conventional sense: they both explore the mystic, the supernatural, and the transcendental. Government and society are regarded as immaterial by strict practitioners of Buddhism and Taoism.
    Thats the very strict. Buddhism had great influence over the political scene, a lot of the emperors practiced buddhism. Though they not be in a sense politcal leaders but seen as spiritual leaders with major influence over the society as a whole. They were seen as a threat to many in the government, thats why many tried to minimalise buddhism's dominance in society.
    Anmajor influence can be seen from Tibet and the Lama's.



    :]

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strife_au
    Thats the very strict. Buddhism had great influence over the political scene, a lot of the emperors practiced buddhism. Though they not be in a sense politcal leaders but seen as spiritual leaders with major influence over the society as a whole. They were seen as a threat to many in the government, thats why many tried to minimalise buddhism's dominance in society.
    Anmajor influence can be seen from Tibet and the Lama's.

    :]
    As we saw in the Jin Yong stories, regimes such as the Tubo Kingdom (Turfan) and the Mongol Empire made their allegiances with Lama Buddhism official by naming Kau Mor Tze and the Golden Wheel Monk, respectively, as their Imperial Ministers. The kings, khans, and emperors had political and military sovereignty, but spiritual matters were governed by these Imperial Ministers.

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Regarding the involvement of buddhist temples in national affairs, it is an understatement to say that Buddhist temples and monks do not involve themselves in secular matters.

    The affore-mentioned example in Tang Dynasty is well known, Shaolin monks was involved in fights against pirates during the Ming dynasty, and of course we have the Shaolin ties with the Hung organisation.


    Han Solo

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