PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[S Beaver]

I think the bottom line is, if one depends on weapons, he must realize there is a price to pay: that the dependence is a weakness, and that there are circumstances in which he will not have the weapon. Jin Yong showed this disadvantage in SPW when Linghu Chong suffered as a result of not carrying his weapon and not knowing how to fight unarmed.

and that is exactly why little dragon girl is more than twice as good as HR, right?

[PJ]

well, to be on equal grounds, how far does the attack have to be to be considered LDA? and has DGSD people ever performed feats of what you consider SOATTA?

Well, Kenny considers LDA to be an attack from a distance of 10+ feet away, which INJURES a weaker opponent, as opposed to simply shoving them back (which would be LDS).

People from DGSD have performed SOATTA on several occasions. Xiao Feng did it. Duan Zhengming did it. Murong Bo did it. Li Qiushui did it, etc.

we agree closely, but not exactly. depending on which approach you take, on whether the two statements are valid or not. as i said, if you validify both statements, then SPW people definitely need to rise in points and ranking. if you disqualify both statements, then i would have to beg to differ on ranking ZSF below GJ

Regarding Zhang Sanfeng vs Guo Jing, I feel that they both have strengths in some areas:

Internally, Guo >= Zhang, although any difference would be minimal
Theory, Zhang > Guo
In Practice, Guo >= Zhang, because Guo would have more stamina

Overall, I consider Guo to be only very slightly above Zhang Sanfeng. But essentially they are on the same level.

[Ken Cheng]

I think the bottom line is, if one depends on weapons, he must realize there is a price to pay: that the dependence is a weakness, and that there are circumstances in which he will not have the weapon. Jin Yong showed this disadvantage in SPW when Linghu Chong suffered as a result of not carrying his weapon and not knowing how to fight unarmed.

This kind of thing would never happen to any of the better fighters of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. Even Little Dragon Girl, never noted for her inner power, would not be helpless without swords like Ling Wu Chung apparently would be.

[PJ]

and that is exactly why little dragon girl is more than twice as good as HR, right?

Good point. May I ask, what do you foresee as a fair place for Little Dragon Girl's overall level?

I posted a discussion a while ago on this topic. The consensus was that Linghu Chong is more dependent on the sword the Dragon Girl. As for how good Dragon Girl would be without those long pointy sharp objects, I did not get any response.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...ight=dependent

[S Beaver]

Well, Kenny considers LDA to be an attack from a distance of 10+ feet away, which INJURES a weaker opponent, as opposed to simply shoving them back (which would be LDS).

People from DGSD have performed SOATTA on several occasions. Xiao Feng did it. Duan Zhengming did it. Murong Bo did it. Li Qiushui did it, etc.

A LOCH Hong 7 Gong an push his palm force to at least 1+ zhang (10+ feet). at the end of ROCH, the distance between 1Deng vs. GWM was also 1+ zhang, thus GWM had to at least propel his palms 10+ feet. Is there reason to assume that GJ cannot do the same even though it isn't specifically stated?

As for SOATTA, 1 deng can propel his finger energy to at least 10+ feet and has likely reached a higher level in 1Yang Finger than Duan Zhengming. Thus, I find it hard to believe that a more powerful 1 Deng cannot perform the same feats as a weaker DZM.

Internally, Guo >= Zhang, although any difference would be minimal

that is where the disagreement lies i suppose. on what bases do you say GJ>=ZSF in internal energy?

[S Beaver]

Good point. May I ask, what do you foresee as a fair place for Little Dragon Girl's overall level?

I posted a discussion a while ago on this topic. The consensus was that Linghu Chong is more dependent on the sword the Dragon Girl. As for how good Dragon Girl would be without those long pointy sharp objects, I did not get any response.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...ight=dependent

personally, i care not how well Little Dragon Girl performs barehanded. i'm am more of a supporter of judging each character at their supposed "reproducable" best. But that takes in the account that a character should not be penalized for being dependent on weapons.

[PJ]

I really don't think your ranking is fair, it's completely biased based upon your own appreciation for each character, not just their martial arts, but whom you think is a "cool" character.

completely biased?

HYS is cooler than YD, therefore HYS gets a couple more points.

Huang Yaoshi is cooler than Yideng... is this your interpretation of the novel or mine?

DGQB is cool and therefore get's top billing.

FYI, I think Huang Shang and the Gallant Island lords are much cooler than Dugu Qiubai. But, does that really matter when we're assessing the martial arts (to the best of our educated estimates)? I try my best to not let my personal favoritism interfere with objective , and I sincerely regret if the result does not meet your expectations. You and everyone else are welcome to question and challenge my reasons, but you should also READ and REMEMBER my responses, because you have a tendency to repeat the same questions as if I had never replied on that matter.

There's no reason not to believe that WCY created his own arts (in fact, in the flash back where he used 9 Ying to defeat LCY, he claims that his martial arts is his own),

You said that Wang Chongyang created his own arts FROM SCRATCH, in comparison to Zhang Sanfeng creating his own arts based on 1/3 of 9 Yang. It sounded like you were claiming that Wang Chongyang never had any teaching instructions, he never had any martial arts foundation, he just somehow became very powerful on his own. My response was that we don't know if this is true or not.

Wang Chongyang claimed that his martial arts is his own, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN HE CREATED THEM FROM SCRATCH!

yet you make it a point of contention so you don't have to modify the rankings you made up based upon your own biases and opinions. You split hairs where you don't want to agree. Laviathan, as knowledgeable as he was in regards to Jin Yong, was always humble enough to listen and accept that his rankings could be questioned. IcyFox at least attempted to quantify his rankings with numbers. Even where his numbers were wrong, he was ready and willing to amend.

Even if Wang Chongyang did create his martial arts from "scratch" (whatever your definition of "from scratch" is), what does that really prove?

I am aware of my position in the wuxia community. I don't claim to be as knowledgeable as Laviathan or IcyFox, that's why I was humble enough to label my ranking as UNOFFICIAL, not the Ultimate or Grand Unified version of Jin Yong ranking.

[PJ]

personally, i care not how well Little Dragon Girl performs barehanded. i'm am more of a supporter of judging each character at their supposed "reproducable" best. But that takes in the account that a character should not be penalized for being dependent on weapons.

Personally, I feel that using a weapon is unfair in terms of comparing martial arts. If you can use a blade, can you also use a gun? How about a missle? Where is the line? Who is to say that Feng Bo'e, when utilizing a nuclear weapon, would not defeat the Sweeper Monk?

(hope you at least got a laugh out of that)

[S Beaver]

Personally, I feel that using a weapon is unfair in terms of comparing martial arts. If you can use a blade, can you also use a gun? How about a missle? Where is the line? Who is to say that Feng Bo'e, when utilizing a nuclear weapon, would not defeat the Sweeper Monk?

(hope you at least got a laugh out of that)

well, it's too bad for sweeper monk then. unless his force field can even block out nuclear explosion who knows?

but really, not accounting weapon is also quite unfair, isn't it? i mean, technically, GJ & XF's arms ARE their weapons. What if we pulled a GF and chopped off one of their arms each. Would they still be as powerful?

not to mention JY once stated that at higher levels of martial arts, it doesn't matter whether weapons are used or not (for some odd reason, i have a hunch that JY was not including guns). I mean, is the H7G with a dog beating stick really more powerful than a H7G with palms?

[PJ]

A LOCH Hong 7 Gong an push his palm force to at least 1+ zhang (10+ feet).

That would be LDS, not LDA.

at the end of ROCH, the distance between 1Deng vs. GWM was also 1+ zhang, thus GWM had to at least propel his palms 10+ feet. Is there reason to assume that GJ cannot do the same even though it isn't specifically stated?

Well, simply propelling your energy to a distance of 10+ feet is not that elite. Kenny calls that LDS (Long Distance Shoving). But actually injuring a weaker opponent from that distance is something that DGSD is particularly famed for.

I've had many debates regarding this topic with fellow forum members. I feel a bit guilty for possibly not remember all of their points presented, but still to this day I feel that there is no conclusive evidence that Condor Greats can perform kenny's definition of LDA (which has been witnessed in SPW).

As for SOATTA, 1 deng can propel his finger energy to at least 10+ feet and has likely reached a higher level in 1Yang Finger than Duan Zhengming. Thus, I find it hard to believe that a more powerful 1 Deng cannot perform the same feats as a weaker DZM.

The simply answer I have is, SOATTA didn't really exist in Jin Yong's mind during LOCH/ROCH/HSDS, so that's why we don't see it Yes, Yideng and the other Greats *should* be able to do it... just like they SHOULD be able to do LDA since even Yinggu has kind of done it.... but still, Jin Yong never granted them the opportunity to show such greatness. Thus sometimes we can find feats done by 4th tier fighters in SPW, that were not featured in Condor era. But that doesn't mean the Greats < 4th tier fighters in SPW

Indeed, in my opinion it is somewhat pointless to argue why the Greats didn't do SOATTA, when Jin Yong didn't even conceive that idea until later. Along the same line, I've always been puzzled as to why some people would argue that Dugu Qiubai is a liar because no one in LOCH has heard of him, when in fact this character wasn't even conceived by Jin Yong by LOCH's time, so of course they haven't heard of him.

that is where the disagreement lies i suppose. on what bases do you say GJ>=ZSF in internal energy?

There's not much evidence... except that Guo Jing practiced full version of 9 Yin + Quanzhen for 30+ years, while Zhang Sanfeng practiced 1/3 of 9 Yang for 90 years. 9 Yin supposedly increases at a faster rate all the time (or something like that). I guess in theory, Guo Jing should have more internal energy than Zhang Sanfeng.

[S Beaver]

Well, simply propelling your energy to a distance of 10+ feet is not that elite. Kenny calls that LDS (Long Distance Shoving). But actually injuring a weaker opponent from that distance is something that DGSD is particularly famed for.

well, i suppose it's JLFW's fault that 1Deng is his equal or H7G's fault that GJ can actually block his attacks.

The simply answer I have is, SOATTA didn't really exist in Jin Yong's mind during LOCH/ROCH/HSDS, so that's why we don't see it Yes, Yideng and the other Greats *should* be able to do it... just like they SHOULD be able to do LDA since even Yinggu has kind of done it.... but still, Jin Yong never granted them the opportunity to show such greatness. Thus sometimes we can find feats done by 4th tier fighters in SPW, that were not featured in Condor era. But that doesn't mean the Greats < 4th tier fighters in SPW

I think the difference that lies between the SOATTA example and the Writing on Wood example is that while one was never mentioned, the other was specifically denied as a feat for the pre-16 yr Great.

There's not much evidence... except that Guo Jing practiced full version of 9 Yin + Quanzhen for 30+ years, while Zhang Sanfeng practiced 1/3 of 9 Yang for 90 years. 9 Yin supposedly increases at a faster rate all the time (or something like that). I guess in theory, Guo Jing should have more internal energy than Zhang Sanfeng.

well, young ZJB with 1/3 of 9 yang was already quite impressive. whether 1/3 9 yang is or is not better than 9 yin doesn't matter, but at least from my point of view, the 1/3 of 9 yang is still more impressive than the internal training of the original Greats. But the key here is also a 30+ years of training vs. 90+ years of training...thus, even if 9 yin increases at a faster rate all the time (which btw, i feel is BS), there is still a 60 year difference here.

[PJ]

but really, not accounting weapon is also quite unfair, isn't it?

To be somewhat more fair, in consideration of a weapon-dependent user's level of martial arts, I make the assumption that half of the time when he has weapon, and half of the time he does not have weapon.

i mean, technically, GJ & XF's arms ARE their weapons. What if we pulled a GF and chopped off one of their arms each. Would they still be as powerful?

Before we become too abstract with symbolism... their arms are a biological part of their body. I feel that the chances of one losing his arm would be lower than one not carrying his weapon.

Well, martial arts is a form of self expression, and I believe that you should express yourself in any way which suits your personality. If you express yourself well through a whip or a sword or whatever, then be my guest. The only caveat is that if one becomes too dependent on the weapon, it may hinder his overall martial arts development.

not to mention JY once stated that at higher levels of martial arts, it doesn't matter whether weapons are used or not

Ha, in fact, I was thinking of quoting that sentence. But then, I thought that in between the time when it was presented in LOCH, to the time when he wrote SPW, Jin Yong may have changed his mind.

I mean, is the H7G with a dog beating stick really more powerful than a H7G with palms?

Not necessarily, and that's exactly the beauty of the WELL-ROUNDED martial artist, is that he does not DEPEND on the weapon. Well, Linghu Chong AND the Pre-16 years Yang Guo are wholly dependent on the weapon. Even if Pre-16 Years Yang Guo can tie a Great, he would be screwed without his weapon. Thus he cannot be really considered an elite fighter. It's the weapon that makes him great, not his actual martial arts.

[PJ]

well, i suppose it's JLFW's fault that 1Deng is his equal or H7G's fault that GJ can actually block his attacks.

Nah, it's JIn Yong's fault for not glorifying the Greats as he did to the DGSD ELites. But then, I can't really blame him too much, because he did have to find a way to highlight DGSD Elites' power in order to push for his theme, so even if the Greats can do LDA, Jin Yong would have found other ways to display DGSD Elites as more powerful.

I think the difference that lies between the SOATTA example and the Writing on Wood example is that while one was never mentioned, the other was specifically denied as a feat for the pre-16 yr Great.

True, it's probably the most shameful description that's ever happened to the Greats. But then, I think we've got some solid evidences belonging to the brighter side of the spectrum. Yideng got the opportunity to illustrate a voice transmission as impressive as Jiumozhi, and Yideng transmitted it from a farther distance presumably. Well, Jiumozhi's finger was described as having the ability to penetrate stone and gold, so I think he should have no problem writing on wood. And if Jiumozhi =~ Yideng, then Yideng should also be able to write on wood by association, although it's a pain in the a$$ to come up with this kind of indirect proof and it's not 100% satisfying, but I try my best

well, young ZJB with 1/3 of 9 yang was already quite impressive. whether 1/3 9 yang is or is not better than 9 yin doesn't matter, but at least from my point of view, the 1/3 of 9 yang is still more impressive than the internal training of the original Greats. But the key here is also a 30+ years of training vs. 90+ years of training...thus, even if 9 yin increases at a faster rate all the time (which btw, i feel is BS), there is still a 60 year difference here.

Yes... and I always think that Reverend Jueyuan's display of internal power is more impressive than the other Greats' display. So maybe 9 Yang is a bit better than 9 Yin, especially when the author explcitly annotated 9 Yang as #1 under heaven in ROCH last chapter.

So now, let me get to the REAL reason why I rank Zhang Sanfeng lower than Guo Jing.

He's old. When he was injured by fake Kongxiang, he needed to meditate for 3 months. His stamina would be significantly weaker than Guo Jing, at least from what Zhang Wuji estimated. I feel that in an actual fight, Zhang Sanfeng would have some serious trouble against a young Great like Guo Jing and Yang Guo, once the fight progresses to 300+ stances. Sure, he eliminated a lot of his opponents relatively quickly, but they were just too weak compared to him. We've never seen him fight an equal.

[CC]

I think we should start a new thread.

In this new thread, we should not start with arguing about X>A>D<~K.

We should try to faithfully list down the apparant internal inconsistencies in JY's stories.

e.g.

1. Yideng 'supposedly' can't write on wood. Jie Feng can.

2. Wang Chongyang can't write on stone, Xiang Wentian can sink feet on stone.

3. Ding Chunqiu and Murong Fu making no sound in their fight, Ren Woxing and Linghu Chong making a racket when fighting Dongfang Bubai.

etc etc...

[PJ]

If internal energy purity matters

It does matter a little bit... but I don't think it's that important all the time. I don't think it helped Yideng much in the battle against Golden Wheel Monk or against Qiu Qianren (when Qiu almost killed a non-fighting-back Yideng).

then Yi Deng should rank higher than Huang Yaoshi.

Huang Yaoshi does have the advantage of more creativity and more versatility. And that has definitely been illustrated as advantageous on numerous occasions. I feel that this advantage outweights the internal purity of Yideng.

[quote]Xiao Feng had problems with the combination of You Tanzhi and Murong Fu. Why is Huang Shang with 9 Ying (with internal energy cultivation to rival Yi Jinjing and external arts that are as good or even better than Murong Fu's) ranked lower than Xiao Feng? We know for a fact that Huang Shang was a genius fighter, ZBT says so in the story he told Guo Jing; Huang Shang was able to intuitively learn martial arts. He spent decades developing and practicing 9 Ying for the express purpose of defeating his enemies. And you're saying he's not as dedicated or able as Xiao Feng? Or even Dugu Qiubai?

While I'm pretty sure that Huang Shang could have handled You Tanzhi + Murong Fu more deftly than Xiao Feng did... that's just a product of their different fighting style. There are for certain things that Xiao Feng can do that Huang Shang can't, like the triple LDAs and Sealing of Acupoints Through the Air. Therefore, both have strengths in some areas and weaknesses in other areas. It would be unfair to only praise Huang Shang in his multiple-opponent-handling glory, while ignoring Xiao Feng's single-opponent-overwhelming advantage.

[PJ]

{During the fight with Dongfang Bubai: 任我行、向问天、令狐冲连声吆喝，声音中透着又是愤
怒，又是惶急。三人兵刃上都是贯注了内力，风声大作。东方不败却不发出半点声息。
Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, Linghu Chong = loud, making noises, generating loud wind, while Dongfang Bubai = without a sound. DFBB demonstrated more profoundness here.}


Inconsistency in the novel? When CX fought LHC his blade did not make any sound and he is roughly equal to the others. Also I found LHC and others feat quite impressive =p, using inner power through their weapons and creating loud sounds of wind...had DFBB been able to do that with his needles, that would be shocking.

Just another two cents....when LHC fought CX it was stated that CX's sword had reached perfection because it carried great speed and power but it did not make a sound, showing elements of both hard and soft. So does that really mean that no sound> than sound and CX is superior to the rest??

Good poins. I guess it's more finnesse and control. It may not have too much value in terms of actual combat performance, but it certainly makes the fighters look more profound.

[S Beaver]

True, it's probably the most shameful description that's ever happened to the Greats. But then, I think we've got some solid evidences belonging to the brighter side of the spectrum. Yideng got the opportunity to illustrate a voice transmission as impressive as Jiumozhi, and Yideng transmitted it from a farther distance presumably. Well, Jiumozhi's finger was described as having the ability to penetrate stone and gold, so I think he should have no problem writing on wood. And if Jiumozhi =~ Yideng, then Yideng should also be able to write on wood by association, although it's a pain in the a$$ to come up with this kind of indirect proof and it's not 100% satisfying, but I try my best

well, technically, we'll have to look at what type of stone and "gold" JY is refering to. Pure gold may not be any harder to write on than hard wood, if harder at all that is. but that's probably just me being technical.

either way, we also have to take in the consideration of whether penetrating and writing is the same thing. afterall, MCF's fingers can finely penetrate the human skull, but it doesn't necessarily mean she can write on it.

He's old. When he was injured by fake Kongxiang, he needed to meditate for 3 months. His stamina would be significantly weaker than Guo Jing, at least from what Zhang Wuji estimated. I feel that in an actual fight, Zhang Sanfeng would have some serious trouble against a young Great like Guo Jing and Yang Guo, once the fight progresses to 300+ stances. Sure, he eliminated a lot of his opponents relatively quickly, but they were just too weak compared to him. We've never seen him fight an equal.

if you put it that way, then I'll have to look into it, to see if he should be allowed the same liberty as ZBT. Though 300+ stances seems to be quite underestimating poor ZSF.

[PJ]

Of which he only listens when he agrees.

I'd like to hear why you think Huang Yaoshi is ranked higher than Yideng.

I would just like to quickly point out that Laviathan also ranked Huang Yaoshi AND Ouyang Feng above/ahead of Reverend Yideng. I've never seen any dispute about that. And yet, when I rank Huang Yaoshi 1% above Yideng, it becomes an outrage to Dennis Chen...

[Dennis Chen]

I would just like to quickly point out that Laviathan also ranked Huang Yaoshi AND Ouyang Feng above/ahead of Reverend Yideng. I've never seen any dispute about that. And yet, when I rank Huang Yaoshi 1% above Yideng, it becomes an outrage to Dennis Chen...

Uh, no he didn't. They were in the same rank. Regardless:

Fact: Huang Shang created and practiced 9 Ying to defeat his enemies.

Fact: Dugu Qiubai created and practiced sword arts to defeat his enemies.

Fact: Huang Shang's martial arts was able to make accomplished novices into martial arts masters

Fact: Dugu Qiubai's martial arts were able to make accomplished novices into martial arts masters

Fact: Huang Shang's 9 Ying Zhen Jin taught, enabled and improved upon the understand and martial arts of established masters.

Fact: There is nothing conclusive to show that learning Dugu Qiubai's martial arts can teach, enable or improve upon the understanding and martial arts of established masters.

Based upon the above facts, your ranking of Dugu Qiubai and Huang Shang makes no sense.

[S Beaver]

Uh, no he didn't. They were in the same rank. Regardless:

Fact: Huang Shang created and practiced 9 Ying to defeat his enemies.

Fact: Dugu Qiubai created and practiced sword arts to defeat his enemies.

Fact: Huang Shang's martial arts was able to make accomplished novices into martial arts masters

Fact: Dugu Qiubai's martial arts were able to make accomplished novices into martial arts masters

Fact: Huang Shang's 9 Ying Zhen Jin taught, enabled and improved upon the understand and martial arts of established masters.

Fact: There is nothing conclusive to show that learning Dugu Qiubai's martial arts can teach, enable or improve upon the understanding and martial arts of established masters.

Based upon the above facts, your ranking of Dugu Qiubai and Huang Shang makes no sense.

i won't care to argue whether dugu or huang shang should be ranked higher, but taking in the last two "facts" that you've given, one can also throw in the "fact" that:

--Pieces of Dugu Qiubai's incomplete art enabled someone to reach a similar level to someone who practiced the completed huang shang's art in ~20 yrs less time.