PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[Ren Ying Ying]

That leap in logic is like saying since Wang Chongyang was a Great because of Xian Tian Gong and Zhou Botong also became a Great, Zhou Botong must have learned Xian Tian Gong.

and you not? sure HS created 9 yin, but one could also claim he didn't even manage to make it to the level of GJ b/c GJ had the help of other great arts such as XL18Z & other great's arts, etc. afterall, we have even seen creators that didn't even manage to complete their own art...

btw, my analogy is based on same result but possibly semi-independent pathway (snake bladder, water training,etc) whereas ur's fully relies on same results with definitively fully dependent pathway (XTG). it's rather different per say

[Dennis Chen]

When it's Dugu Qiubai or Huang Yaoshi, the best is always assumed. When it's Huang Shang or Wang Chongyang, the worst is always assumed.

The hero-worship going on here defies logic.

[S Beaver]

When it's Dugu Qiubai or Huang Yaoshi, the best is always assumed. When it's Huang Shang or Wang Chongyang, the worst is always assumed.

The hero-worship going on here defies logic.

i don't see how anyone is assuming the worst or best of any of those characters (unless it's fanatic little fans or haters, then it's quite a different story).

[Ken Cheng]

I don't think Dennis is completely wrong. Some characters do tend to get the benefit of the doubt more easily than others. I've noticed that trend too.

[S Beaver]

I don't think Dennis is completely wrong. Some character do tend to get the benefit of the doubt more easily than others. I've noticed that trend too.

they do obviously. it's rather hard to be entirely impartial and not overrate/underate a fictional character. esp those that hardly appear or are rather mysterious since there are no definite or standard line for impartialness in the first place.

however, the way dennis puts it, its as if PJ used the BEST of HYS & Dugu whereas he used the WORST of WCY and HS, which i don't think it's the case. though i hardly agree with the majority of PJ's listing & his point distribution, i actually think he gave more fairness for these four characters as compared to certain others.

[Pacifian]

I agree with S Beaver here.

It's not that difficult to believe that what the Divine Condor did for YG, it certainly did the same for DGQB. We must remember the time when the Divine Condor attempted to train YG harshly by striking it with its wings while YG defended himself using the HIS, YG yelled for the Divine Condor not to treat him as though he were DGQB. The Divine Condor immediately stopped the training and felt disappointed. While this might not be conclusive on whether DGQB did train himself with the snake bladders and waterfall training, it does at least points out the fact that the Condor really treats YG in a special way: it really sees DGQB in YG and wanted him as a DGQB substitute/successor.

This is guesswork, yes, but it does have a fair reasoning behind it. Unlike the example Dennis pointed out, it doesn't make glaring sweeping statements, and most certainly isn't a *leap* in logic. The gaping holes in this case are characterised by other possibilities, whereas that example Dennis cited blatantly equates Great level to Xian Tian Gong.

[Dennis Chen]

Why is it so hard to imagine that a man who could create a martial art that could teach Wang Chongyang, Yi Deng and Hong Qigong a thing or two to be a better martial artist/fighter than Xiao Feng? We know for a fact that Huang Shang practiced 9 Ying to full mastery, that's what he spent 40 years doing to defeat his enemies.

Zhang Wuji, with full mastery of 9 Yang/Qian Kun Da Noi Yi/Tai Chi Jian had the potential to exceed Xiao Feng at the age of 30 or 31. Are we to believe that Huang Shang with full mastery of 9 Ying after 40 years of practicing is still lower than Xiao Feng?

[Exodus]

Why is it so hard to imagine that a man who could create a martial art that could teach Wang Chongyang, Yi Deng and Hong Qigong a thing or two to be a better martial artist/fighter than Xiao Feng? We know for a fact that Huang Shang practiced 9 Ying to full mastery, that's what he spent 40 years doing to defeat his enemies.

Zhang Wuji, with full mastery of 9 Yang/Qian Kun Da Noi Yi/Tai Chi Jian had the potential to exceed Xiao Feng at the age of 30 or 31. Are we to believe that Huang Shang with full mastery of 9 Ying after 40 years of practicing is still lower than Xiao Feng?

Huang Shang might be better than Xiao Feng in martial art theory but it doesn't mean that he would beat Xiao Feng. Xiao Feng was a MA genius himself being able to adapt to different situation in battle.

[Dennis Chen]

This is guesswork, yes, but it does have a fair reasoning behind it. Unlike the example Dennis pointed out, it doesn't make glaring sweeping statements, and most certainly isn't a *leap* in logic. The gaping holes in this case are characterised by other possibilities, whereas that example Dennis cited blatantly equates Great level to Xian Tian Gong.

Xian Tian Gong is what made Wang Chongyang a Great. It was Xian Tian Gong that defeated Duan Zhixing, Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi.

[Dennis Chen]

Huang Shang might be better than Xiao Feng in martial art theory but it doesn't mean that he would beat Xiao Feng. Xiao Feng was a MA genius himself being able to adapt to different situation in battle.

If you read Zhou Botong's story on Huang Shang, you'll see that Huang Shang was a genius fighter along with being a genius martial arts theorist.

Also, who's to say that Dugu Qiubai could defeat Xiao Feng? Linghu Chong's swordsmanship was superior to Chongxu, but in an actual fight using internal energy, Linghu Chong would have lost very quickly and very badly.

Is there anything in ROCH that says that Dugu Qiubai's internal energy was superior to Yang Guo's? Or was it only his swordsmanship that was still superior to Yang Guo's?

[Exodus]

If you read Zhou Botong's story on Huang Shang, you'll see that Huang Shang was a genius fighter along with being a genius martial arts theorist.

Also, who's to say that Dugu Qiubai could defeat Xiao Feng? Linghu Chong's swordsmanship was superior to Chongxu, but in an actual fight using internal energy, Linghu Chong would have lost very quickly and very badly.

Is there anything in ROCH that says that Dugu Qiubai's internal energy was superior to Yang Guo's? Or was it only his swordsmanship that was still superior to Yang Guo's?

zhou botong never meet Huang Shang so we can't trust his word a 100% he might have heard stories about Huang Shang.

[Dennis Chen]

zhou botong never meet Huang Shang so we can't trust his word a 100% he might have heard stories about Huang Shang.

And who has ever met Dugu Qiubai and verified everything he said?

[Exodus]

i have never said for certain anything about Dugu.

[Ken Cheng]

Is there anything in ROCH that says that Dugu Qiubai's internal energy was superior to Yang Guo's? Or was it only his swordsmanship that was still superior to Yang Guo's?

Assuming that Dook Goo Kau Bai was telling the truth, his inner power had to be considerable to be able to use the Wooden Sword and finally the No Sword techniques. Even at the end of ROCH, Yeung Gor didn't have enough inner power to achieve Wooden Sword stage, and his inner power was already massive.

[S Beaver]

Why is it so hard to imagine that a man who could create a martial art that could teach Wang Chongyang, Yi Deng and Hong Qigong a thing or two to be a better martial artist/fighter than Xiao Feng? We know for a fact that Huang Shang practiced 9 Ying to full mastery, that's what he spent 40 years doing to defeat his enemies.

i agree...the creator of 9 yin should have at least as much internal energy as GJ, most likely more (he at least had more time training). he is a genius and the best of 9 yin techniques arn't less advanced than the great's arts. giving him only a mere four point above GJ is rather unfair

zhou botong never meet Huang Shang so we can't trust his word a 100% he might have heard stories about Huang Shang.

i would highly doubt JY intended for ZBT to tell a "false" story about huang shang and the history of 9 yin

[Pacifian]

Xian Tian Gong is what made Wang Chongyang a Great. It was Xian Tian Gong that defeated Duan Zhixing, Hong Qigong, Ouyang Feng and Huang Yaoshi.

You misunderstand me.

When I say that example equates Great to Xian Tian Gong, I don't mean WCY's Great status was attributable to Xian Tian Gong. Rather, I was commenting in the lack of sense surrounding the part 'so long as you are a Great, and are related to WCY closely, you have learnt Xian Tian Gong'. It ignores the multitude of possibilities and plausibilities that ZBT reached Great status through his own capabilities.

[PJ]

Uh, no he didn't. They were in the same rank. Regardless:

Laviathan stated that within each level, the more powerful individuals are placed FIRST. Huang Yaoshi is placed before Yideng. Therefore, Huang Yaoshi >= Yideng in the Ultimate Ranking.

[PJ]

We know for a fact that Huang Shang practiced 9 Ying to full mastery, that's what he spent 40 years doing to defeat his enemies.

Huang Shang spent 40 years INVENTING 9 Yin. That's different than spending 40 years practicing 9 Yin. And quite frankly, even if Huang Shang could single-handedly defeat ALL of his previous enemies from 40 years ago, it's not necessarily more impressive than Xiao Feng's glorious performance at Juxian Manor, where he single-handedly took on--and thrived with--the combined forces of hundreds of elite martial artists of Zhongyuan Wulin.

[S Beaver]

my perception is that Huang Shang had already developed the basics and internal works of 9 yin from the taoist scriptures previous to his 40 yrs in the cave. He spent most of the 40 yrs developing specific techniques to counter his opponents. He was already quite a formidable fighter when he first fought the Ming cult and killed their elders.

[Ken Cheng]

Another thing that is impressive about Wong Seung is that he started with *no* martial arts background. Unlike Gwok Jing, who had been training as a martial artist since childhood, Wong Seung hadn't practiced any martial arts at all until he was already middle-aged. To start from that point and still become a Greats-level fighter (or better) entirely through his own invention is truly amazing.