PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[Wu Wudi]

Though you mentioned that ZWJ is a crappy fighter, but you're only looking at the general scernario. If we are to rate ZWJ at peak level, we have to take his fight against the 3 Du Generation the 3rd time and at Wudang when ZWJ showed some of his "brutalness and aggressiveness". I believe those times ZWJ really did push himself to the upper limits. So I still feel ZWJ is somewhat >JLFW (futhermore, don't forget that lopsided poll).

Forget JLFW, he can be beaten by many people on that list. I'm more interested in ZWJ vs the other two protagonists of the Condor trilogy. I don't know why it's such an easy decision for so many on this board to rank ZWJ below GJ & YG. ZWJ's internal power was more versatile than either GJ or YG and it was shown to still be increasing near the end of he story. Although GJ or YG were both extremely talented, I can't see either of them learning as quickly and as much as ZWJ did with almost no instruction from anyone. Keep in mind that ZWJ's foster father only forced him to memorize the techniques but did not explain anything for him.

ZWJ was also arguably the best doctor in China after his medical teacher died. Although YG was smart, his academic ability is garbage compared to ZWJ. Everyone knows that medical students are the smartest. We don't even need to talk about GJ who was barely literate. I know that Z3F said that intelligence isn't always important in understanding martial arts, but ZWJ seems to be one of those people that have incredible learning abilities with almost any subject. I just don't see that kind of talent in GJ or YG. Out of the three, only ZWJ is capable enough to learn a highly skilled opponent's moves and then use them against the opponent in the heat of a battle.

People talk about ZWJ's defeats but ZWJ's overall record was much dominant than either YG or GJ. By the middle of the story, ZWJ has already been established as the most powerful martial artist in a long time (except for Z3f). Of course, from that point on, ZWJ could only lose to fluke reasons since he was already been established as the most powerful person in Wulin. I thought it was ludicrous that the Persians could beat ZWJ even with the element of surprise from their foreign martial arts. However, ZWJ redeemed himself by completely owning those Persians the next day. ZWJ also lost against ZZR but neither YG nor GJ would have won a fight against their lovers so it's not really fair to hold that defeat against ZWJ. The biggest display of ZWJ's dominance is how he's so often put up against multiple opponents who are at the top of Wulin. Sure, those fighters won't at LOCH/ROCH greats' levels but it can't be easy going against so many great fighters as shown when someone like HYS had to take on 7 Quanzhen masters.

I really can't understand why some people keep selling ZWJ short by putting him below GJ/YG. In my opinion, ZWJ vs GJ/YG should be just as hotly contested as GJ vs YG. Before coming to this board, I was often told by many people that they don't like ZWJ because he was too powerful and he was too lucky in obtaining 9YANG and in being born so talented. I was really surprised when I saw how many don't even think twice before dismissing him against either GJ or YG.

[Ken Cheng]

I've never gotten the feeling either that DGKB's martial arts were more powerful than 9yin. It seemed to me that JY meant for 9YIN to be the ultimate pinnacle of all martial arts for the Condor Trilogy. I feel that 9yang's internal power is superior to 9yin's but it was never said explicitly by JY.

If the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the 9 Yum Jen Ging are equal overall, then the 9 Yeung Jen Ging's inner power yield *must* be somewhat stronger because it has no fighting techniques at all. The 9 Yeung Jen Ging's inner power feats seem more impressive than the 9 Yum Jen Ging's, which says alot because the 9 Yum Jen Ging's inner power feats are already HELLA impressive.

[Wu Wudi]

If the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the 9 Yum Jen Ging are equal overall, then the 9 Yeung Jen Ging's inner power yield *must* be somewhat stronger because it has no fighting techniques at all. The 9 Yeung Jen Ging's inner power feats seem more impressive than the 9 Yum Jen Ging's, which says alot because the 9 Yum Jen Ging's inner power feats are already HELLA impressive.

The rapid increase in ZWJ's internal power after mastering 9YANG and the continuous increase of his internal power are what impressed me the most. Although GJ increased his internal power too after learning 9YIN, the jump wasn't as dramatic and the gains afterwards were a bit slower. ZWJ's ability to heal quickly from deadly wounds, to protect himself innately and to eradicate an opponent's inner power were also beyond what was seen with 9yin's internal power.

[Whsie]

I agree with Wu Wudi on this part, but do keep in mind that part of the reason why GJ was slower was because he was busier with the country. Regardless of what you say, being busy with the Mongols no doubt hinder at least SOME progress.

And I agree, ZWJ should actually be rated as what I personally call the Great Elite 4 who include GJ, YG, Z3F, and ZWJ (maybe ZBT, but he is a bit old) who are a bit greater than the other Greats.

[HuangYushi]

This time there was no sound when fist and palm met. Both were generating internal energy. When it comes to all-round martial arts, He ZuDao would win with ease over Zhang JunBao. But when it comes to internal energy, Zhang learnt some parts of the "Jiu Yang" codex so his internal strength kept increasing and increasing. He ZuDao knew he couldn't defeat this young boy and leapt away and let Zhang JunBao's energy dash forward and used his right hand to push gently on Zhang's back causing him to fall over.

I'm not sure whether the underlined translation is correct. The Chinese text is 内力绵绵密密，浑厚充溢. It definitely says that his internal energy was abundant, but I'm not sure if it says it kept increasing. Perhaps someone who is well-versed in Chinese can confirm?

I don't consider myself "well-versed in Chinese", but 绵绵密密 is a description along the lines of "continuous and dense", like the kind of synthetic stuffing that you'd find in your quilt/bedding, taken out and packed tightly together. Since 浑厚充溢 is literally "deep/rich/thick/overflowing", the whole phrase of 内力绵绵密密，浑厚充溢 would more or less mean that Zhang Junbao's internal strength was "very rich, dense and continuous in its flow".

[IcyFox]

I don't believe that's necessarily true.

Hmmm... so which part of DGQB's formless sword theories being more advanced (in what sense?) than which part of 9 Yin do you perceive to be (how?) unnecessarily true?

Edit : I asked just in case I didn't fully understand your response to PJ.

By your single statement, if Sweeper Monk was using a sword, Dugu Qiubai would be able to overcome him.

...

Everyone thinks Dugu Qiubai's kung fu is the be all end all, but it's only sword theories. There's no internal.

Just checking... weren't you the one who feels that DGQB can be mentioned in the same breath with WCY who was himself supposedly the best in the JY canon?

If the 9 Yeung Jen Ging and the 9 Yum Jen Ging are equal overall, then the 9 Yeung Jen Ging's inner power yield *must* be somewhat stronger because it has no fighting techniques at all.

Are you sure?

[RongYingMin]

ZWJ's internal is unpure, unrefined, still needs work. So even though his internal is = to that of YG or GJ, he is still rated lower.

May I ask u a question?
"Pure or Unpure", what difference does it make?

In the novel, Jin Yong did NOT ever mention the disavantages of having unpure internal energy. You see, even his internal energy was still unpure, ZWJ could do so many magical things.

[PJ]

PJ, i thought z3f is at LEAST on par with XF,if not better,

Why? Please support your thoughts with texual implications from the novel.

and why is GJ ranked lower then XF<they came from DIFFERENT time zone, also GJ has XL18Z and 9 yin, XF only has XL28Z, so GJ should actually be on par,if not better then XF.

You cannot simply look at what techniques people know and conclude their level that way. Yang Guo knows way more skills than Guo Jing, by your logic does that mean Yang Guo is automatically better than Guo Jing? Basically we look at the OVERALL performance of the fighters, among other things, to assess each fighter's level.

[Whsie]

May I ask u a question?
"Pure or Unpure", what difference does it make?

In the novel, Jin Yong did NOT ever mention the disavantages of having unpure internal energy. You see, even his internal energy was still unpure, ZWJ could do so many magical things.

The difference comes in efficiency and controll of that internal. The Du Generation were able to make their whips whip without sound. In other words, they were able to make the power just right so that not too much is used to cause the noise. This shows extreme control.
Another point to look at is YG and Yideng. YG probably has stronger internal than Yideng, but it was hinted that Yideng's internal was far purier. With Yideng's extremely pure internal, he can control his speaking so that the sound is only right next to you (which only JMZ in DGSD has shown). YG on the other hand while can produce a much stronger and overwhelming roar, doesn't seem to be able to controll it like Yideng was able to.

I hope that clarified some issues up.

While in a battle where one's internal far surpasses another, the purity won't matter, but when it comes down between 2 ~ internals, the one iwth the purier internal has the advantage internally. And this is where ZWJ falls to GJ and Z3F.


As for PJ, my point is still the same. The difference between the DGSD Elite 4 and the Elite Greats were a bit glaring for reasons I mentioned before.

[IcyFox]

When you come right down to it, the DGKB sword theories are basically a better way to stab/cut people with a sword and that's pretty much all they functionally are.

Why do you say that? (And I presume you're reffering to DG9J right?)

[PJ]

GJ already overcame the sword without a sword. He has great sword technique (9 Yin Zhen Jing) but he is better when fighting with XL18Z. So he overcame the sword using palm.

In Laviathan's humble opinion, there is a difference between overcoming the sword without a sword and beating the crap out of someone without using a sword. I refer to his post for more clarification:

...the sword is considered to be the highest external form within Chinese martial art, one has to begin with unarmed combat in order to advance to sword training. Once you'd mastered the sword, you can be considered a true expert. But Dugu Qiubai surpassed the excellence of the sword, he developed from sword fighting to unarmed combat. Thus the circle is completed. At the later stage of his life, Dugu concentrated on internal power because his techniques have become formless, it has already reached the ultimate level. In DGSD, no one was known to have achieved such skills, except maybe for the Nameless Old Monk. In actual combat, DGSD Masters might defeat Dugu Qiubai, but in the field of martial arts principles and theories, I think Dugu is superior.

[PJ]

Actually, SPT's understanding of martial arts improved a lot after pointers from his parents.

Agree, but not enough to conclude that Shi Potian in non-trance mode would reproduce the awesome power of his trance mode.

The way he threw the planks, his precision when landing on it and his precision when throwing Shi Xiao Cui (his sifu) back on the far away boat show that he can control his energy very well.

The plank throwing, followed by an illustration of energy shifting and throwing Grandma Shi over to Bai Zizai, does not really reveal much about his combat potential, IMO. Sure, he grasped some aspects of Ode to Gallantry kung fu, but to say from this example that Shi Potian can utilize the maximum power of the Ode to Gallantry art, or that he is at Sweeper Monk or Xuzhu level, is a bit inconclusive IMO. And I'll give you my reasons.

We can probably all agree that You Tanzhi is not a great fighter. He can only exoploit a fraction of his power in combat. He has comparable internal energy as Xiao Feng, but is only able to achieve a fraction of Xiao Feng's combat performance. But even You Tanzhi demonstrated good "control" (as you call it) of his internal energy when he rescued the blind Ah Zhi and leaped into the air. Ah Zi noted that You Tanzhi at that point revealed similar running speed as Xiao Feng. Isn't that also a notable control of one's internal energy? To run as fast as someone who has mastered martial arts. And yet we know that You Tanzhi's kung fu sucks (relative to his internal energy).

My point is that we know the awesome results of Shi Potian's trance mode, but not for his non-trance mode. For a young adult who has barely tapped into the field of martial arts (as opposed to internal cultivation, which he has a lot of experience with), his normal mode should not measure up to the extraordinary case of when he was subconsciously using his martial arts.

[PJ]

Though you mentioned that ZWJ is a crappy fighter, but you're only looking at the general scernario. If we are to rate ZWJ at peak level, we have to take his fight against the 3 Du Generation the 3rd time and at Wudang when ZWJ showed some of his "brutalness and aggressiveness". I believe those times ZWJ really did push himself to the upper limits. So I still feel ZWJ is somewhat >JLFW (futhermore, don't forget that lopsided poll).

But Zhang Wuji can't always reproduce the awesomeness of his greatest fight. He normality is underperforming. Same with Golden Wheel Monk. We must take that into consideration in the ranking.

I still have a pretty hard time imagining that Yideng as "80%" of JMZ and perform the same feat better (look at the distances).

Distances, you say? LDAs are the reason that DGSD Elites are ranked moderately higher than the Greats.

And btw, the Yideng that Qiu Chu Ji talked about was when??

He didn't say when. So it could be the pre-16 year Yideng. Nobody knows. It's like when he said that Lin Chaoying > 4 Greats. Well, what point in time did Qiu Chuji mean? Again, dunno.

[PJ]

I really can't understand why some people keep selling ZWJ short by putting him below GJ/YG.

Consider this: Guo Jing and Yang Guo, due their extensive experiences, could utilize their power near maximum level (well, "normal mode" for Yang Guo). On the other hand, Zhang Wuji constantly underperforms due to his lack of experience and fighter mentality. Laviathan once compiled a list of embarrassments that illustrate Zhang Wuji's underperformance; others have replied to defend Wuji, and Laviathan has replied to some of their responses. If you are interested, The thread is here: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=5482

In my opinion, ZWJ vs GJ/YG should be just as hotly contested as GJ vs YG. Before coming to this board, I was often told by many people that they don't like ZWJ because he was too powerful and he was too lucky in obtaining 9YANG and in being born so talented. I was really surprised when I saw how many don't even think twice before dismissing him against either GJ or YG.

Laviathan has also compiled a list of great accomplishments by other young and inexperienced protagonists including Yang Guo, Linghu Chong, and Guo Jing, which demonstrate more competency with their respective martial arts than Zhang Wuji. (Xiao Feng was not mentioned because his superior fighting is well-noted) I will reproduce that list here:

Guo Jing
1. After reaching a certain level of Quanzhen internal cultivation, Guo Jing could hold his own against the Four Ghosts of Yellow River. He still managed to defend himself when the four of them attacked them together, though he could not defeat them all at the same time and would eventually lose.

2. In Beijing, Guo Jing fought one-on-one with Yang Kang who had received much better tutoring and had better martial arts techniques than himself, and Guo Jing still managed to draw.

3. At Guihun Manor, Guo Jing fought against Mei Chaofeng (who was clearly the superior fighter) but eventually even got the upperhand.

This was all before he learned the complete Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms. Did he got help during these fights? Yes, he did. Did he receive pointers? Yes he did. And after he completed the 18 Palms, he also learned Zhou Botong's martial arts and Nine Yin. But please note that Guo Jing had to fight superior opponents like Qiu Qianren and Ouyang Feng, whose mastery of techniques and internal power were all better than him. Against others, Guo Jing had no problem handling them whatsoever.

Yang Guo
1. At the Heroes Meeting, Yang Guo managed to defeat Huodu, whose internal power was mcuh higher than his.

2. Yang Guo also defeated and hypnotized Daerba, who was even a more fearsome fighter than Huodu.

3. After learning the sonnets of Dog Hitting Staff from Huang Rong, Yang Guo went to fight against Golden Wheel Monk himself.

4. In Loveless Valley, Gongsun Zhi used his full power to kill Yang Guo but failed.

This was all before he learned the Heavy Ironsword, before he reached martial arts greatness. Did he got help during these fights? Yes, he did. Did he receive pointers? Yes he did. But please note that Yang Guo had to fight superior opponents whose internal power were all better than him.

Linghu Chong
1. In his first fight in the novel, Linghu Chong took on Tian Boguang and won (through wits).

2. After learning Dugu Nine Swords, Linghu Chong beat Cheng Buyou. He then lost his internal power and virtually became a sick, handicapped man, but still he fought:

- Reverend Fangsheng
- the Four Friends of Jiangnan
- Ren Woxing

And he managed to defeat:

- Cong Buqi
- Feng Buping
- the fifteen masked men
- Yi Guoxin of Shaolin
- Tan Diren of Kunlun
- Hou Renxiong and two other Qingcheng students
- Twelve Sun & Moon Sect members
- Priest Tianyi of Taishan
- Yue Hou, Great YinYang Palm of Songshan

All the above-mentioned persons had higher power than Linghu Chong before the latter learned Xixing Dafa.

Ok... I'm too tired to give other examples. Honestly, I just don't see how Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Linghu Chong or other heroes would get into so much trouble during fights like Zhang Wuji did.

Apart from Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji had the highest internal power during the HSDS era and he also learned the most powerful martial arts which existed at that time. Yet he NEVER defeated his opponents (who were all inferior to him individually martial arts-wise) with ease, he ALWAYS had to use a lot of time and effort.

That's why I believe Wuji to be a lousy fighter. He lacks the perseverance of Guo Jing, the wits of Yang Guo and Linghu Chong's ability to adapt to the situation.

[PJ]

I don't consider myself "well-versed in Chinese", but 绵绵密密 is a description along the lines of "continuous and dense", like the kind of synthetic stuffing that you'd find in your quilt/bedding, taken out and packed tightly together. Since 浑厚充溢 is literally "deep/rich/thick/overflowing", the whole phrase of 内力绵绵密密，浑厚充溢 would more or less mean that Zhang Junbao's internal strength was "very rich, dense and continuous in its flow".

Thanks, in other words, not necessarily "increasing and increasing" as Chrono's translation noted.

[Whsie]

But Zhang Wuji can't always reproduce the awesomeness of his greatest fight. He normality is underperforming. Same with Golden Wheel Monk. We must take that into consideration in the ranking.

Distances, you say? LDAs are the reason that DGSD Elites are ranked moderately higher than the Greats.

He didn't say when. So it could be the pre-16 year Yideng. Nobody knows. It's like when he said that Lin Chaoying > 4 Greats. Well, what point in time did Qiu Chuji mean? Again, dunno.

Technically, we should rate them at max ability or else we can talk about what if they were having a stomach ache or whatever. So I think we should rate them at max/greatest fight.

No,no. When I was talking about distances, I meant the distance transmited by Yideng and JMZ. I wasn't talking about LDA in this case. If you looked at the text VERY carefully, you can see that Yideng's distance was much farther than JMZ's distance, achieving the same characteristics of soft/close/controlled speaking. That does not give me the impression that JMZ is that much superior to Yideng in internal and further not only "80%" of JMZ.

He didn't say, so we can assume the that Qiu Chu Ji last saw Yideng before Pre 22 (NOT 16!) Years ROCH. In other words, Yideng had AT LEAST 22 years to improve himself to be able to carve out of wood.

[PJ]

Technically, we should rate them at max ability or else we can talk about what if they were having a stomach ache or whatever. So I think we should rate them at max/greatest fight.

I do not believe that should be the case. We should not just look at people's greatest moments, but rather, the AVERAGE performance during their PEAK PERIOD, and also taking into consideration their dependency on weapons. I believe we should look at people's OVERALL martial arts to assess a FAIR level that depicts their OVERALL picture. If we simply take their brightest moment then we are painting a skewed picture, and not necessarily an accurate one. I am trying to be as fair and accurate as possible with these rankings.

No,no. When I was talking about distances, I meant the distance transmited by Yideng and JMZ. I wasn't talking about LDA in this case. If you looked at the text VERY carefully, you can see that Yideng's distance was much farther than JMZ's distance, achieving the same characteristics of soft/close/controlled speaking. That does not give me the impression that JMZ is that much superior to Yideng in internal and further not only "80%" of JMZ.

It may be true that Yideng transmitted the voice from a farther distance than Jiumozhi.

He didn't say, so we can assume the that Qiu Chu Ji last saw Yideng before Pre 22 (NOT 16!) Years ROCH. In other words, Yideng had AT LEAST 22 years to improve himself to be able to carve out of wood.

Laviathan said that Qiu Chuji has NEVER met Yideng in his life. If that is to be believed, then that adds to the complexity of the equation, and we cannot assume when is the time period that Qiu Chuji meant.

Furthermore, Qiu Chuji has certainly never met Lin Chaoying during his life. And yet he says that Lin Chaoying is superior to the Greats. What period in time should we interpret that Qiu Chuji was referring to? I believe it's open to interpretation.

[Whsie]

Laviathan said that Qiu Chuji has NEVER met Yideng in his life. If that is to be believed, then that adds to the complexity of the equation, and we cannot assume when is the time period that Qiu Chuji meant.

Furthermore, Qiu Chuji has certainly never met Lin Chaoying during his life. And yet he says that Lin Chaoying is superior to the Greats. What period in time should we interpret that Qiu Chuji was referring to? I believe it's open to interpretation.

Well... if that is the case, then wouldn't the "even Yideng can't carve wood" quote be neglected? Afterall, this was something that you were trying to use to weaken Yideng in comparision to JMZ's feats.

[PJ]

Well... if that is the case, then wouldn't the "even Yideng can't carve wood" quote be neglected?

Why would it be neglected? Should Qiu Chuji's quote about Lin Chaoying > Greats be neglected too then? I don't think we should ignore the statements in the novel if there's some valuable information. In this case, I think it's more of Jin Yong's way of communicating information through a character. Sure, Qiu might never have met Yideng, but if Jin Yong wants to tell us something--in this case, Yideng's inability to write on wood--he will find a way to tell us.

[Whsie]

Should Qiu Chuji's quote about Lin Chaoying > Greats be neglected too then? I don't think we should ignore the statements in the novel if there's some valuable information. In this case, I think it's more of Jin Yong's way of communicating information through a character. Sure, Qiu might never have met Yideng, but if Jin Yong wants to tell us something--in this case, Yideng's inability to write on wood--he will find a way to tell us.

Not exactly most convincing. I have another idea about those 2.

About LCY>Greats, it's reasonable because I'm sure Qiu Chu Ji has heard of stories from WCY to have a relative idea of the strength of LCY compared to his MASTER and based on what he seen in the battle against HYS and OYF in LOCH, he can make a relative comparision. The only flaw in that thinking is that the Great's level is outdated by 13 years by the time of Pre 22 years ROCH.

About Yideng not being able to carve out of wood. I still think it should be neglected to a certain extent. If you ask me, what would Qiu Chu Ji use as the standard for a Great at Pre 22 years ROCH? As I said, it's the LOCH Greats level because he would most likely think OYF~HYS~Yideng and that is reasoable IMO. Qiu Chu Ji at that the time of Pre 22 Years ROCH would most likely think that the Yideng at LOCH Great with that cultivation cannot carve out of wood. However, even with that idea, this idea can still be flawed because Yideng specializes in Solitary Yang Finger which is a pure finger technique, so even Qiu Chu Ji has no idea. He just thinks with Yideng's ability of the LOCH time which is relative to OYF and HYS cannot carve out of wood. This would mean that 1. Qiu Chu Ji's standard fo a Great is already outdated 13 years. Which as you said yourself, the Greats do improve. 2. Even in LOCH level, Qiu Chu Ji has no idea of the level of Solitary Yang Finger, especially when the Solitary Yang Finger is the best finger technique in the world. 3. By the time of Post 16 Years ROCH, Yideng would have 35 years of extra improvement which is the standard that WE are using to compare with JMZ.