PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[Ken Cheng]

So, Toad Stance, HX18Z and Yi Yang Zhi were all equal but Peach Blossom arts individually were inferior. This takes nothing away from HYS, he is still a martial arts genius; HYS was able to take all the skills he created and use them as a system of martial arts and be an equal to all the other Greats.

It does kind of explain why Wong Yung never did quite reach Greats level despite having quite a few advantages in her favor.

[yittz]

HYS's flick was never said to be 2nd to YYZ. They were always put in equal light.
Flick = sad = XL18Z as far as JY implied in that duel (unless you overanalyse it with how flick only neutralised sad palm).

Don't forget H7G has dog beating stick, which was superior to the snake stick. HR was no great cause of other factors (GJ learnt these skills, he was still a great) and her main skill was dog beating stick anyways.

Imo XTG or QZ cannot be said to be superior to greats martial arts, only the practitioner was more skillful. Only clear black stars are AT>QZ, YYZ>toad.

Another thing is flick seems to be hardly ever used in close range, which might give/mean a sign of inferiority. I am not sure if it's inefficient at close range (whereas YYZ shown it can be used) or HYS prefer to use other things.

In the final LOCH fight vs GJ. H7G started powering up his XL18Z, whereas HYS decided to use his newly invented skill leaf kick (?), all to the same result.

[PJ]

In ROCH itself as well as in HSDS we were shown that the "non-great" disciples of Greats level fighters are apparently unable to give a accurate estimate of their own teachers martial arts level...

I see no reason why QCJ should be more accurate at estimating the martial arts level of a Great level fighter he had never met than the direct disciples of 2 other Great level fighters were at estimating their own teachers martial arts.

That is an excellent point. However consider this: Jin Yong, the author of, and the greatest authority over, these novels, is apparently unable to give accurate descriptions of his characters. So should we disregard his remarks too? In DGSD, Jin Yong first described one of Murong Fu's servants as first-class, then proceeds to classify Murong Fu, Xuan generation monks, etc etc in the same first-class category. When giving descriptions about people having reached the peak of perfection in martial arts, Jin Yong has been quite careless, to the point where such descriptions have become useless in gauging people's MA level.

So, I ask yee, if we can't trust the disciples when several of them have given inaccurate estimation, why should we trust Jin Yong when he has given tens if not hundreds of inaccurate descriptions?

Just a random thought.

[Yeung Gor]

So, I ask yee, if we can't trust the disciples when several of them have given inaccurate estimation, why should we trust Jin Yong when he has given tens if not hundreds of inaccurate descriptions?

PJ, I notice you bring up alot of what JY supposively said, where do you gather your sources?

btw, I think when we consider an author's works, perhaps it's not meant to use cross novel comparisons or else there will be contradictions. But we fans do it anyways for the fun of it.

[PJ]

PJ, I notice you bring up alot of what JY supposively said, where do you gather your sources?

Thank you for asking me to verify my claims with evidences from the novel. That is what we all should do.

I said that Jin Yong classified one of Murong Fu's servants as first class. Here is the text from chapter 15:
只听乔峰又道：“我和他对饮三碗，说起江南的武林人物，他自夸掌法江南第
二，第一便是慕容复慕容公子。我便和他对了三掌。第一掌、第二掌他都接了下来，
第三掌他左手中所持的酒碗震得粉碎，瓷片划得他满脸都是鲜血。他神色自若，说
道：‘可惜！可惜！可惜了一大碗好酒。’我大起爱惜之心，第四掌便不再出手，说
道：“阁下掌法精妙，‘江南第二’四字，当之无愧”。他道：‘江南第二，天下
第屁！’我道：‘兄台不必过谦，以掌法而论，兄台实可算得是一流好手。’他道：
‘原来是丐帮乔帮主驾到，兄弟输得十分服气，多承你手下留情，没让我受伤，我
再敬你一碗！’咱们二人对饮三碗。分手时我问他姓名，他说复姓公冶，单名一个
‘乾”字。这不是乾坤之乾，而是干杯之干。他说是慕容公子的下属，是赤霞庄的
庄主，邀我到他庄上去大饮三日。众位兄弟，这等人物，你们说是如何？是不是好
朋友？”

Later, Jin Yong classified Ding Chunqiu as first-class:
慕容复在这门功夫上虽然修练多年，究竟限于年岁，未能达
到登峰造极之境，遇到丁春秋这等第一流的高手，他自知无法以“斗转星移”之术反拨回
去伤害对方

And Murong Fu:
段延庆受五人围
攻，慕容复更是一流高手，但他杖影飘飘，出招仍是凌厉之极。

btw, I think when we consider an author's works, perhaps it's not meant to use cross novel comparisons or else there will be contradictions. But we fans do it anyways for the fun of it.

Yes, that is probably true, but I wasn't even talking about cross-novel comparisons. I was talking about intra-novel descriptions which are blatantly untrue, like when Jin Yong said that Wudang Hero #2 Yu Lianzhou has reached the peak of perfection in martial arts, and when he said that pre-10th level DEP Jinlun Guoshi has reached POP.

[Noodles]

Thank you for asking me to verify my claims with evidences from the novel. That is what we all should do.

I said that Jin Yong classified one of Murong Fu's servants as first class. Here is the text from chapter 15:
只听乔峰又道：“我和他对饮三碗，说起江南的武林人物，他自夸掌法江南第
二，第一便是慕容复慕容公子。我便和他对了三掌。第一掌、第二掌他都接了下来，
第三掌他左手中所持的酒碗震得粉碎，瓷片划得他满脸都是鲜血。他神色自若，说
道：‘可惜！可惜！可惜了一大碗好酒。’我大起爱惜之心，第四掌便不再出手，说
道：“阁下掌法精妙，‘江南第二’四字，当之无愧”。他道：‘江南第二，天下
第屁！’我道：‘兄台不必过谦，以掌法而论，兄台实可算得是一流好手。’他道：
‘原来是丐帮乔帮主驾到，兄弟输得十分服气，多承你手下留情，没让我受伤，我
再敬你一碗！’咱们二人对饮三碗。分手时我问他姓名，他说复姓公冶，单名一个
‘乾”字。这不是乾坤之乾，而是干杯之干。他说是慕容公子的下属，是赤霞庄的
庄主，邀我到他庄上去大饮三日。众位兄弟，这等人物，你们说是如何？是不是好
朋友？”

Later, Jin Yong classified Ding Chunqiu as first-class:
慕容复在这门功夫上虽然修练多年，究竟限于年岁，未能达
到登峰造极之境，遇到丁春秋这等第一流的高手，他自知无法以“斗转星移”之术反拨回
去伤害对方

And Murong Fu:
段延庆受五人围
攻，慕容复更是一流高手，但他杖影飘飘，出招仍是凌厉之极。



Yes, that is probably true, but I wasn't even talking about cross-novel comparisons. I was talking about intra-novel descriptions which are blatantly untrue, like when Jin Yong said that Wudang Hero #2 Yu Lianzhou has reached the peak of perfection in martial arts, and when he said that pre-10th level DEP Jinlun Guoshi has reached POP.

There's a slight but significant difference in the way that Murong Fu's servant is described compared with Mu Rongfu himself and Ding Chunqiu. Mu Rongfu's servant is described as 一流好手 whereas Murong Fu and Ding Chunqiu are described in the class of 一流高手. Also, the servant was described through Qiao Feng/Xiao Feng himself while the other sentence is described through the narration of Jin Yong himself. Obviously, we can trust the judgement of Qiao Feng/Xiao Feng here but we have to be careful when interpreting judgement through a character rather than the author himself.

The statement about Wudang hero #2 might not be true but for Jin Yong stating that Jinlun Guoshi had reached the peak of perfection, it might not be blatantly untrue since it seems that might be another level beyond this. Jin Yong describing Yang Guo in chapter 34
當十五年前，楊過的武功已遠非這老婦所能及，這時他內外兼修，漸臻入神坐
照的化境，那老婦的“寒陰箭”雖然狠毒凌厲，卻如何傷得了他？只不過他与這老
婦無怨無仇，又是為求她心愛之物而來，貿然捕捉靈狐，終究自己理虧，因此便任
她拍擊自己三掌，竟不還手。

[sandy32]

I dont know why Xu Zhu can get the second place. His experience of fight is too low. We cant ignore this factor.

[CC]

I dont know why Xu Zhu can get the second place. His experience of fight is too low. We cant ignore this factor.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he is one of the rare JY characters who can charge a _prepared_ army head on.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he was the only one in ANY JY novel to take direct _multiple_hits from a Great level fighter and not get injured.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because his XY techniques are extremely high. Good enough to overcome JMZ's 72 Shaolin Arts in just his debut fight.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he was decribed as having received TSTL's 'Zhen Chuan' which implies he had mastered her techniques in the end. Also described as 'unable to be disadvantaged in ANY situation'.

Did I mention his incredible inner power?

[PJ]

The ranking is nice and all, but I think the weights and rankings here depend too much on personal interpretation of the texts.

Dennis, I don't think you're going to see a comprehensive ranking which doesn't rely on "personal interpretation of the texts."

[Dennis Chen]

Dennis, I don't think you're going to see a comprehensive ranking which doesn't rely on "personal interpretation of the texts."

Despite my own personal prejudices, I chose to use neutral words in the above statement.

[Whsie]

Another thing is flick seems to be hardly ever used in close range, which might give/mean a sign of inferiority. I am not sure if it's inefficient at close range (whereas YYZ shown it can be used) or HYS prefer to use other things.

Not neccesary.
During Hua Shan Tournament 2, HYS used Divine Flick close range without pebbles. However, HYS ended getting bit.

[Areaofdefect]

Err Ke Zhen 'E ranking is abit too low,i think he should be around 15% or abit higher.

[JigSta]

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he is one of the rare JY characters who can charge a _prepared_ army head on.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he was the only one in ANY JY novel to take direct _multiple_hits from a Great level fighter and not get injured.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because his XY techniques are extremely high. Good enough to overcome JMZ's 72 Shaolin Arts in just his debut fight.

Because his inner power is HexXor.

Because he was decribed as having received TSTL's 'Zhen Chuan' which implies he had mastered her techniques in the end. Also described as 'unable to be disadvantaged in ANY situation'.

Did I mention his incredible inner power?

CC, you forgot to mention about XZ's incredible inner power.

[Whsie]

Err Ke Zhen 'E ranking is abit too low,i think he should be around 15% or abit higher.

because??? This is not a ranking of personal opinions, plz use reason to why you would think whatever you would want to say.
For example: I think Chen Jia Luo is #2 is the JY universe. Do you think anyone is going to believe me? Dubious.

[PJ]

The statement about Wudang hero #2 might not be true but for Jin Yong stating that Jinlun Guoshi had reached the peak of perfection, it might not be blatantly untrue since it seems that might be another level beyond this. Jin Yong describing Yang Guo in chapter 34
當十五年前，楊過的武功已遠非這老婦所能及，這時他內外兼修，漸臻入神坐
照的化境，那老婦的“寒陰箭”雖然狠毒凌厲，卻如何傷得了他？只不過他与這老
婦無怨無仇，又是為求她心愛之物而來，貿然捕捉靈狐，終究自己理虧，因此便任
她拍擊自己三掌，竟不還手。

Well, the trouble is that when Jin Yong lumps Xiao Feng and Wudang Hero #2 in the same category of martial arts description, that takes away a lot of credibility from his colorful descriptions. It means that we cannot trust his descriptions any more.

[Huang Rong]

Unofficial Ranking version 2
SPW Dongfang Bubai 280
DGSD Jiumozhi 255
HSDS Zhang Sanfeng 245
SPW Ren Woxing 110.25
SPW Feng Qingyang 110.25
SPW Abbot Fangzheng 110.25
SPW Priest Chongxu 99.75
SPW Linghu Chong 94.5
DGSD Abbot Benyin and his fellow monks 80.85
HSDS Yellow-dressed Lady 73.5
SPW Lin Pingzhi 71,5
SPW Xiang Wentian 63
SPW Beggar Union Chief Jie Feng 54

I think each of those above characters should be given a new mark.
Jiumozhi've suffered from a potential fire deviation due to trying to learn the incomplete Little Formless Art. So he can't get the same mark as Xiao Feng's. His mark should be somewhere between Xiao Yuanshan's and Xiao Feng's.
Dongfang Bubai deserves a higher mark, which is possibly about equal to Xiaoyao elders', based on the way he easily nearly defeated Linghu Chong, Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian n Yingying together.
Jiumozhi defeated 4 - 5 (I don't remember the exact number) Tianlong temple monks at the same time, whereas he only could overcome 3 Shaolin Xuan generation monks. So the mark of Tianlong monks should be decreased a little bit.
The characters of SPW should be added several dozens of point to each of their marks since Xiang Wentian could imprint his 2 feet ~ 2 inches deep in a floor-brick easily without any debris. Jie Feng n Fang Zheng could use their fingers to write on a wood pillar showing great inner energies.
Yellow dressed lady Yang's kung fu level is most likely superior to her ancestor Xiao Long Nu.
In SPW, Zhang Sanfeng is said to be "having reached the level of Wooden-Sword", his mark should be higher than 245, well, somewhere between 255 and 260 is reasonable, IMO.

[XiaoTofu]

I think each of those above characters should be given a new mark.
Jiumozhi've suffered from a potential fire deviation due to trying to learn the incomplete Little Formless Art. So he can't get the same mark as Xiao Feng's. His mark should be somewhere between Xiao Yuanshan's and Xiao Feng's.
Dongfang Bubai deserves a higher mark, which is possibly about equal to Xiaoyao elders', based on the way he easily nearly defeated Linghu Chong, Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian n Yingying together.
Jiumozhi defeated 4 - 5 (I don't remember the exact number) Tianlong temple monks at the same time, whereas he only could overcome 3 Shaolin Xuan generation monks. So the mark of Tianlong monks should be decreased a little bit.
The characters of SPW should be added several dozens of point to each of their marks since Xiang Wentian could imprint his 2 feet ~ 2 inches deep in a floor-brick easily without any debris. Jie Feng n Fang Zheng could use their fingers to write on a wood pillar showing great inner energies.
Yellow dressed lady Yang's kung fu level is most likely superior to her ancestor Xiao Long Nu.
In SPW, Zhang Sanfeng is said to be "having reached the level of Wooden-Sword", his mark should be higher than 245, well, somewhere between 255 and 260 is reasonable, IMO.

I do not agree with you,XYS and MRB are skillwise equalled with XF,howver they will lose out in the long run because they are old.JMZ is equal in skills with XYS and MRB,so that makes JMZ skillwise on par with XF. But i do not believe that zhang sanfeng is any inferior to the greats and XF as there is no evidence.

[Huang Rong]

In a long fight, the potential fire deviation of Jiumozhi can break out suddenly so even though he and Xiao Feng are on par with each other in terms of internal power and external techniques, Xiao Feng would still eventually gain the upper hand.

[strife_au]

In a long fight, the potential fire deviation of Jiumozhi can break out suddenly so even though he and Xiao Feng are on par with each other in terms of internal power and external techniques, Xiao Feng would still eventually gain the upper hand.

lol how can you argue with XiaoTofu aka Soulmelody aka alloysin aka countless other alias clones

[Huang Rong]

Who are they, strife_au? I've never heard of such member names.