PJ's unofficial ranking of the Jin Yong universe

[strife_au]

Who are they, strife_au? I've never heard of such member names.

Their all XiaoTofu as you can see from the earlier pages of this thread he's been posting random stuff about like how Yang Tiexing should be ranked higher etc etc.
Like Seroth etc....

[Huang Rong]

thanks for reminding me ^^, strife_au.
could anyone pls tell me in what chapter of ROCH I can find the text desribing that Yideng couldn't use his fingers to carve on a wooden pillar?

[PJ]

I think each of those above characters should be given a new mark.
Jiumozhi've suffered from a potential fire deviation due to trying to learn the incomplete Little Formless Art. So he can't get the same mark as Xiao Feng's. His mark should be somewhere between Xiao Yuanshan's and Xiao Feng's.

We are assuming characters at their reproduceable peak. Jiumozhi participated in many fights throughout DGSD, and he never had any problem related to fire deviation. It was only when Sweeper Monk showed up with his lectures that suddenly Murong, Xiao, and Jiumozhi magically exposed their problems (which no one suspected previously).

In fact, there is some evidence that Jiumozhi performs BETTER during danger. His quick subduing of Murong Fu is incredible.

Dongfang Bubai deserves a higher mark, which is possibly about equal to Xiaoyao elders', based on the way he easily nearly defeated Linghu Chong, Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian n Yingying together.

I have a theory about Dongfang Bubai bearing a similar quality as Guo Jing, in that, due to the nature of their martial arts, both perform more optimally against a group rather than an individual. When Dongfang was just fighting Linghu Chong, Linghu Chong was able to render Dongfang having no choice but to block, and Dongfang couldn't really injure Linghu Chong that way. When Ren Woxing and Xiang Wentian and Shangguan Yun joined the fight, they didn't seem to make any difference. They were probably getting in the way more than helping. Therefore, it seems like whether fighting Linghu Chong along OR fighting Linghu Chong + 2 more elite fighters, DFBB's performance is about the same. This can possibly be attributed to Dongfang's incredible moving speed which does not fully reveal its greatness to a single opponent.

The other reason, is that I simply cannot envision DFBB dominating against the Greats too much, given the Greats' expertise and wisdom.

Jiumozhi defeated 4 - 5 (I don't remember the exact number) Tianlong temple monks at the same time, whereas he only could overcome 3 Shaolin Xuan generation monks. So the mark of Tianlong monks should be decreased a little bit.

I don't think It was ever said that Jiumozhi could only handle 3 Xuan generation monks.

The characters of SPW should be added several dozens of point to each of their marks since Xiang Wentian could imprint his 2 feet ~ 2 inches deep in a floor-brick easily without any debris. Jie Feng n Fang Zheng could use their fingers to write on a wood pillar showing great inner energies.

There are several considerations regarding this matter, some of which have spanned many debates between me and ChronoReverse/bliss:

1) Apparently, a great number of people are unable to make correct estimations of other people's kung fu level. There's no good reason to believe that Qiu Chuji would be correct in estimating Yideng's abilities (whom, by the way, he's never met!). So Yideng not being able to write on wood is inconclusive.

2) It's hard to imagine Priest Chongxu being much superior to Zhang Sanfeng's DIRECT disciples. Wudang Hero #2 Yu Lianzhou was described as having reached the PEAK OF PERFECTION in martial arts... even if that doesn't say much about his actual level, it says that he's reached an extremely high level of martial arts in general. Currently, I ranked Chongxu almost THREE times higher than Yu Lianzhou. I feel that is probably already too much gap between Zhang Sanfeng's direct disciples and somebody from several generations later.

3) Smiling Proud Wanderers and Ode to Gallantry occurred in the same dynasty. It's hard to imagine that there would be a great difference between the highest class (having more than 2 people at this level) of Central Plains in SPW being much better than that of OTG. Currently, my ranking places Ren Woxing, Fangzheng et al (highest Central Plains class in SPW) almost THREE times above Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, et al (highest Central Plains class in OTG). I feel the difference is probably already too big.

Yellow dressed lady Yang's kung fu level is most likely superior to her ancestor Xiao Long Nu.

Why?

In SPW, Zhang Sanfeng is said to be "having reached the level of Wooden-Sword", his mark should be higher than 245, well, somewhere between 255 and 260 is reasonable, IMO.

But Zhang Sanfeng himself thought he might be inferior to Guo Jing.

[Dennis Chen]

I think Wang Chongyang should be rated higher. It's obvious in the 3rd edition that Jin Yong made sure to take out many things that would imply that he would be inferior to the other Greats in ROCH.

[PJ]

I think Wang Chongyang should be rated higher. It's obvious in the 3rd edition that Jin Yong made sure to take out many things that would imply that he would be inferior to the other Greats in ROCH.

Such as?

On the contrary, I think there are reasons to believe Jin Yong wishes to downgrade Wang Chongyang, as you will see in my other topic.

[PJ]

Dongfang Bubai deserves a higher mark, which is possibly about equal to Xiaoyao elders'

Hi, I have brought up this point before. The Xiaoyao Elders are all supremely talented individuals. Tianshan Tonglao began practicing supremely elite martial arts at age 6 (or somewhere close), which most martial artists would fire deviate by simply looking at the source. After 90 years of training, the Xiaoyao Elders are only as good as a 40+ year old Dongfang Bubai who only practiced Sunflower Manuscript for a few short years? That makes it sound like that Xiaoyao Sect martial arts aren't really worth a damn and that the 3 elders wasted their life practicing advanced martial arts. Now, I don't believe that's the case. I believe that Xiaoyao Elders should be at a higher level than Dongfang Bubai.

One may argue that Dongfang Bubai has the advantage of speed. But in fact, the Xiaoyao Elders are also noted as unfathomably fast. At the height of Tonglao and Li Qiushui's battle, Xuzhu could only see two blurs spinning around; his eyes had no way to keep up with their stances. 虚竹抢上石阶，向上望去，只见一团白影和一团灰影都在急剧旋转，两团影子倏分倏合，发出密如联 珠般的拍拍之 声，显是童姥和李秋水斗得正剧。冰上烧着一个火折，发出微弱的光芒。虚竹见二人身手之快，当真 是匪夷所思， 哪里分得出谁是童姥，谁是李秋水？

Based on the descriptions, I doubt Dongfang Bubai would be much faster than the Xiaoyao Elders.

[Huang Rong]

We are assuming characters at their reproduceable peak. Jiumozhi participated in many fights throughout DGSD, and he never had any problem related to fire deviation. It was only when Sweeper Monk showed up with his lectures that suddenly Murong, Xiao, and Jiumozhi magically exposed their problems (which no one suspected previously). In fact, there is some evidence that Jiumozhi performs BETTER during danger. His quick subduing of Murong Fu is incredible.

I've just read that passage in which Jiumozhi defeated Murong Fu.
But right after that event, he got fire deviation. As an innate fighter as Xiao Feng was, he would surely find a proper way to take this advantage.
And if you don't agree with me on that point, there're still some other evidences to prove that Xiao Feng is slightly better than Jiumozhi.
IIRC, in a certain post before, CC used Xu Zhu as an intermediary rule to compare Xiao Feng and Jiumozhi. Wait for me for a while, I'll find that post.

I don't think It was ever said that Jiumozhi could only handle 3 Xuan generation monks.

Uhm, I was mistaken.
But Jiumozhi was about equal to Xiao Feng, so he could deal with 3 Xuan monks at the same time too.

1) Apparently, a great number of people are unable to make correct estimations of other people's kung fu level. There's no good reason to believe that Qiu Chuji would be correct in estimating Yideng's abilities (whom, by the way, he's never met!). So Yideng not being able to write on wood is inconclusive.
2) It's hard to imagine Priest Chongxu being much superior to Zhang Sanfeng's DIRECT disciples. Wudang Hero #2 Yu Lianzhou was described as having reached the PEAK OF PERFECTION in martial arts... even if that doesn't say much about his actual level, it says that he's reached an extremely high level of martial arts in general. Currently, I ranked Chongxu almost THREE times higher than Yu Lianzhou. I feel that is probably already too much gap between Zhang Sanfeng's direct disciples and somebody from several generations later.
3) Smiling Proud Wanderers and Ode to Gallantry occurred in the same dynasty. It's hard to imagine that there would be a great difference between the highest class (having more than 2 people at this level) of Central Plains in SPW being much better than that of OTG. Currently, my ranking places Ren Woxing, Fangzheng et al (highest Central Plains class in SPW) almost THREE times above Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, et al (highest Central Plains class in OTG). I feel the difference is probably already too big.

1. I agree.
2. Jinyong've never stated that a practitioner of a later generation can not surpass his/her ancestor in terms of kung fu. Perhaps Chongxu has more talent, time and interest in training martial arts than Yu Lianzhou does.
3. The time difference between ROCH and HSDS was just 60 years but in HSDS era there were only 2 (or 3) Greats.

But Zhang Sanfeng himself thought he might be inferior to Guo Jing.

He probably reached that level of wooden-sword 10 years after he thought that he MIGHT be inferior to Guo Jing. In those 10 years, his martial art must have gained some new achievements.

[PJ]

I've just read that passage in which Jiumozhi defeated Murong Fu.
But right after that event, he got fire deviation. As an innate fighter as Xiao Feng was, he would surely find a proper way to take this advantage.

That was the ONLY fight in which Jiumozhi displayed any such sign. During all of his other fights, including a lengthy fight with Xuzhu, he was perfectly fine. We should not consider the post-Sweeper Monk Jiumozhi to be the representation of Jiumozhi at his PEAK, since Jiumozhi has had several finer moments that looked supremely good as a Great.

And if you don't agree with me on that point, there're still some other evidences to prove that Xiao Feng is slightly better than Jiumozhi.
IIRC, in a certain post before, CC used Xu Zhu as an intermediary rule to compare Xiao Feng and Jiumozhi. Wait for me for a while, I'll find that post.

Right, but there are also incidents that make Jiumozhi look better than Xiao Feng. Like when Jiumozhi overwhelmed 5 monks of Celestial Dragon Monastery, and 1 monk =~ 1 Xuan generation monk (evidence available upon request), and Xiao Feng is only = 3 Xuan generation monks. That makes Jiumozhi look better than Xiao Feng. Also, when Xiao Feng exchanged palms with Xuannan, Xiao only destroyed Xuannan's sleeve. When Jiumozhi exchanged finger skill with Xuandu, he actually injured Xuandu. Of course, Xiao Feng wasn't going all out that time, but the point is that Jiumozhi made more impact against a similar opponent and thus potentially looks a bit stronger.

Sometimes Xiao Feng looks better; other times Jiumozhi looks better. In the end, I believe they are just on par with each other.

But Jiumozhi was about equal to Xiao Feng, so he could deal with 3 Xuan monks at the same time too.

Like I said above, Jiumozhi was stronger than 5 Dali monks, roughly the equal of 5 Xuan generation monks.

2. Jinyong've never stated that a practitioner of a later generation can not surpass his/her ancestor in terms of kung fu. Perhaps Chongxu has more talent, time and interest in training martial arts than Yu Lianzhou does.

Sure, but Chongxu being THREE times more talented than all of the 5 Heroes of Wudang? I have some doubts.

3. The time difference between ROCH and HSDS was just 60 years but in HSDS era there were only 2 (or 3) Greats.

OK, but the levels of the top Central Plains dogs did not vary much. I am arguing that Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, etc should be at a similar level as Ren Woxing, Chongxu, etc. Not exactly the same level, but not that far apart either.

He probably reached that level of wooden-sword 10 years after he thought that he MIGHT be inferior to Guo Jing. In those 10 years, his martial art must have gained some new achievements.

Firstly, even Zhang Wuji has reached the stage of wooden sword in chapter 24 when he defeated Eight-armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai. So it is no surprise that Zhang Sanfeng has also reached that stage when he created Taiji Sword. But reaching a higher stage in martial arts theory does not make one stronger in practice, and we have the classic example of Chen Jialuo having reached a higher stage of theory than Xiao Feng and Guo Jing; Chen was closer to the theoretical "formless" stage of Shi Potian and Dugu Qiubai, and yet he is only about probably 2% of Guo Jing's level. Reaching a higher stage in theory does not mean much unless it's backed by combat performance and/or records.

[Huang Rong]

and 1 monk =~ 1 Xuan generation monk (evidence available upon request)

Could you quote the evidence?

Sure, but Chongxu being THREE times more talented than all of the 5 Heroes of Wudang? I have some doubts.

Not necessarily too different like that.
Only near the end of his lifetime did Zhang Sanfeng invent the Taichi techniques. As we can see from the time frame in the novel, when HSDS era ended 5 Wudang heroes had trained Taichi techniques for just 1 year, whereas Chongxu had probably trained Wudang martial arts for > 40 years.

OK, but the levels of the top Central Plains dogs did not vary much. I am arguing that Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, etc should be at a similar level as Ren Woxing, Chongxu, etc. Not exactly the same level, but not that far apart either.

Why don't you try adding to the marks of all the characters in SPW and XKX by ~ 20 points. I think it'll still be reasonable.

Firstly, even Zhang Wuji has reached the stage of wooden sword in chapter 24 when he defeated Eight-armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai. So it is no surprise that Zhang Sanfeng has also reached that stage when he created Taiji Sword.

When Zhang Sanfeng told Wuji that sentence, the novel has just gone halfway. So at the end of the novel, he must have 1 year more to increase his internal and external power.

[CC]

Could you quote the evidence?

When Zhang Sanfeng told Wuji that sentence, the novel has just gone halfway. So at the end of the novel, he must have 1 year more to increase his internal and external power.

He was already 100+ years old at that point. He would have spent >90 years training his internal since Jue Yuan first taught him bits of 9 Yang. 1 more year is not going to do much! The only way he _might_ even get a noticeable internal boost at that point would be for ZWJ to share the full 9 Yang with him.

You can claim that his technique got an immense boost from the Tai Ji philosophy but the book was never too explicit on that point.

[S Beaver]

1) Apparently, a great number of people are unable to make correct estimations of other people's kung fu level. There's no good reason to believe that Qiu Chuji would be correct in estimating Yideng's abilities (whom, by the way, he's never met!). So Yideng not being able to write on wood is inconclusive.

2) It's hard to imagine Priest Chongxu being much superior to Zhang Sanfeng's DIRECT disciples. Wudang Hero #2 Yu Lianzhou was described as having reached the PEAK OF PERFECTION in martial arts... even if that doesn't say much about his actual level, it says that he's reached an extremely high level of martial arts in general. Currently, I ranked Chongxu almost THREE times higher than Yu Lianzhou. I feel that is probably already too much gap between Zhang Sanfeng's direct disciples and somebody from several generations later.

3) Smiling Proud Wanderers and Ode to Gallantry occurred in the same dynasty. It's hard to imagine that there would be a great difference between the highest class (having more than 2 people at this level) of Central Plains in SPW being much better than that of OTG. Currently, my ranking places Ren Woxing, Fangzheng et al (highest Central Plains class in SPW) almost THREE times above Xie Yanke, Bai Zizai, et al (highest Central Plains class in OTG). I feel the difference is probably already too big.

.....


But Zhang Sanfeng himself thought he might be inferior to Guo Jing.

if you were to doubt QQJ's statement on yi-deng, the same doubt should be placed upon ZSF's statement on GJ, shouldn't it?

[tape]

Well the beginnings of LOCH/ROCH are in the same dynasty and the original Greats in their 30's were by far the best in Wulin, and at the time they were probably only a bit better than people like Li Mo Chou. They later far surpassed themselves, but still at one point in the dynasty the highest level was extremely low relatively.

[Huang Rong]

The only way he _might_ even get a noticeable internal boost at that point would be for ZWJ to share the full 9 Yang with him.
You can claim that his technique got an immense boost from the Tai Ji philosophy but the book was never too explicit on that point.

Well, I've never thought that far.
Zhang Sanfeng is one of the great martial artists ever, he is self-respecting enough to not learn 9 Yang from his martial grandson.

He was already 100+ years old at that point. He would have spent >90 years training his internal since Jue Yuan first taught him bits of 9 Yang. 1 more year is not going to do much!

After 90 years of uninterrupted training, he gets 245 points overall.
So in 1 more year, he would probably get 245/90 =~ 2.6 more points.
Therefore, his mark should be 247.6 ^^.

[PJ]

if you were to doubt QQJ's statement on yi-deng, the same doubt should be placed upon ZSF's statement on GJ, shouldn't it?

Sure, Zhang Sanfeng could be wrong. But his thought still has more merit than Qiu Chuji's utterance, b/c Zhang thought on MULTIPLE occasions that he is on par with Guo Jing, Yang Guo, etc. Once in chapter 24 when he commented that only himself, Guo Jing/Yang Guo, and Jueyuan reached Zhang Wuji's internal cultivation, and once more in a later chapter when Zhang Wuji said that Zhang Sanfeng admitted to be possibly inferior to Guo Jing. So we have more confidence in Zhang Sanfeng's remarks.

[Dennis Chen]

Just how good could a young Zhang Junbao's assessment be?

It seems so odd to me. Everyone seems to think that everyone else is great at assessing someone else's kung fu except when they are Quan Zhen Jiao people. Whether it's Qiu Chuji, the 7 masters when they were watching the fight between XLN and Jin Lun Guo Shi. People even express doubt when someone as powerful as Zhou Botong makes an assessment! Quan Zhen people just can't get a break. Every single one of them are viewed as lesser than their equals (and even those that are supposed to be below them) in some way. Even Wang Chongyang!

Well, I've never thought that far.
Zhang Sanfeng is one of the great martial artists ever, he is self-respecting enough to not learn 9 Yang from his martial grandson.

I think ZSF did learn 9 Yang from ZWJ when he was helping ZWJ integrate his martial arts together. I doubt that ZSF ever practiced it though.

[Dennis Chen]

It does kind of explain why Wong Yung never did quite reach Greats level despite having quite a few advantages in her favor.

It's weird. There's no question that ZSF is a greater martial artist than WCY. But ZSF had 1/3rd of 9 Yang as a foundation to create his own martial arts. WCY (as far as we know) created his own martial arts from scratch. I think it's safe to say that WCY's martial arts are at least equal (and probably superior) to HYS's martial arts. ZSF's martial arts is superior to WCY's martial arts, I think that's a given: Taiji Quan and Jian is better than WCY's Quan and Jian kung fu. However, is there any kung fu of ZSF's that's better than Xian Tian Gong? People will say that WCY's martial arts couldn't be Great because he produced no other Greats (completely false as Zhou Botong disproves that idea). However, what Greats (apart from himself) did Zhang Sanfeng's martial arts create? Chongxu couldn't even defeat Linghu Chong.

Once again, people give Wang Chongyang far too little credit. Wang Chongyang should be ranked higher.

[PJ]

WCY (as far as we know) created his own martial arts from scratch.

We do? Do we?

[PJ]

Just how good could a young Zhang Junbao's assessment be?

I don't know, but his student Zhang Cuishan was stupid enough to think that Zhang Sanfeng = Xie Xun. And Huodu was stupid enough to think that Golden Wheel Monk would crush Guo Jing or something. It happens a lot in Jin Yong fiction.

[Ken Cheng]

I don't know, but his student Zhang Cuishan was stupid enough to think that Zhang Sanfeng = Xie Xun. And Huodu was stupid enough to think that Golden Wheel Monk would crush Guo Jing or something. It happens a lot in Jin Yong fiction.

It seems sometimes, the characters are worse at judging other characters' martial arts than we, the fans, are.

[PJ]

Once again, people give Wang Chongyang far too little credit. Wang Chongyang should be ranked higher.

Oh, believe me, Wang Chongyang gets enough credit. People talk about him on a daily basis on the forums. It's hidden gems like Gao Shengtai, Granny Yu, Golden Wheel Monk's first disciple, Zhan Fei, Shaolin monk Chengguang/Dengguang (plus a host of others I'm not even aware of), who are rarely ever mentioned by anyone, that need more attention.