Further proof that Smiling Proud Wanderer era kung fu beats DGSD/Trilogy era kung fu

[c13:4567]

The bottom line, similar to what a previous poster said, is that JY pretty much had to write some impressive kungfus in every novel so some inconsistencies are to be expected.

The "fact" that the DGSD had a kungfu that was able to use chi as a sword, which is a skill that is unparalleled elsewhere in the JY universe "proves" that the level of martial arts was at least the highest in the known JY universe. It doesn't mean that individual fighters from the older eras were always better than their counterparts in the more recent eras, however.

well said...

OT: btw, what happened to Lav? sure like to see him posting

[yittz]

We don't know what middle level fighter is. Even what we consider middle level were described as awesome by JY to elevate even better ones.

Imo middle range fighters wouldn't be too different between each era, as their skill level were so low.

[PJ]

PS. Devil's advocacy at work again, eh? Your (first and second) unofficial ranking of JY characters shows that you do not really support the notion of SPW > Trilogy/DGSD. So how about handling your own argument yourself?

Yes, I have long been an advocate of the notion that the martial arts of SPW era is greatly inferior to those of the Condor era. Although recently the SPW level has been upgraded in my book [as reflected in my unofficial personal ranking].

PJ, can you point me to da exact passage in SOD that says pressure point sealing is a cheap technique? (I.e. gimme the chapter at least) thanks.

It's in chapter 27

任我行全身为之冻僵。左冷禅乘着他“吸星大法”一窒的
顷刻之间，内力一催，就势封住了他的穴道。穴道被封之举，原只见于第二三流武林人物
动手之时，高手过招，决不使用这一类平庸招式。左冷禅却舍得大耗功力，竟以第二三流
的手段制胜，这一招虽是使诈，但若无极厉害的内力，却也决难办到。

...XF using his feet as a blackboard wiper on rock.

This has been semi-replicated by Xiang Wentian, a 3rd level fighter from SPW.

Shooting chi.

Apparently even a 4th tier SPW fighter can do LDA. And lest not forget the fancy descriptions about Dugu 9 Swords being able to counter every known martial arts.

Forcefields.

The king of energy shields, Maestro Sweeper Monk, demonstrated that he could kill an elite fighter in one stance. Dugu Qiubai was said to be extremely happy if someone could make him block one stance. Dugu Qiubai's era was right after DGSD, so maybe even elite fighters as powerful as Murong Bo could not make him block a stance !.!

[S Beaver]

This has been semi-replicated by Xiang Wentian, a 3rd level fighter from SPW.

well, if ur counting DFBB as 1st lvl and RWX/Fang Zhang as 2nd lvl, then a 3rd lvl fighter is actually quite powerful. afterall, if sweeper is considered 1st, xiao yao elders 2nd, then XF is only but also a 3rd lvl fighter in DGSD....

[yittz]

It's crazy to think how much internal it takes to just stand there and sink footprints into tiles. The onlookers were astonished at the feat (or feet ), but didn't think it was impossible and believed LHC (ie a few other people can achieve it too) can do it.

SPW defies wuxia logic, to think 3rd lvl XWT can with minimal movement and subtlety, do what QCJ claimed YD (and definitely WCY) can't do with something more concentrated like a finger and full range of movement (tile maybe softer however than rocks).

The only consistency of 'deterioration' is to assume tiles are way easier to sink into than natural rocks (XF on rock, YD on rock, vs. JY on tiles, Ah3 on tiles, XWT on tiles).

To PJ: I don't understand how RWX got his accupoints sealed by ZLC, was it by sending in cold internal energy (ie via inner route) or physically attacking accupoints (ie outer routes)? In LOCH 2/3 liu is even below WYHL's lackies no?

[PJ]

To PJ: I don't understand how RWX got his accupoints sealed by ZLC, was it by sending in cold internal energy (ie via inner route) or physically attacking accupoints (ie outer routes)? In LOCH 2/3 liu is even below WYHL's lackies no?

I assume Zuo Lengchan just used an average SOA technique. Whether he used the Glacial Ice internal energy to power that, I'm not sure.

[yittz]

I am not sure if you read Naruto. But Neji (fav. character) can seal peoples accupoints/attack them, by sending his chakra (internal energy) into the opponent. Or he can physically seal it (backed with chakra) by attacking specific accupoint locations.

[PJ]

About point #3, the leaping... I have just found that Lin Pingzhi, whose internal energy level is considered 4th or 5th level in SPW, could leap to 3 zhang away. Xuzhu probably has 30 times more internal energy than Lin Pingzhi, and yet their leaping ability is about the same? How can that be? Perhaps physics can help explain this, maybe leaping over empty space below creates suction, and the downpulling makes leaping more difficult than leaping over solid ground?

林平之提
起左掌，拍拍两声，打了余沧海两个耳光。余沧海怒极，但对方右手仍然按在自己心房之
上，这少年内力不济，但稍一用劲，便能震坏自己心脉，这一掌如将自己就此震死，倒也
一了百了，最怕的是他以第四五流的内功，震得自己死不死，活不活，那就惨了。在一刹
那间他权衡轻重利害，竟不敢稍有动弹。林平之打了他两记耳光，一声长笑，身子倒纵出
去，已离开他有三丈远近

[CC]

About point #3, the leaping... I have just found that Lin Pingzhi, whose internal energy level is considered 4th or 5th level in SPW, could leap to 3 zhang away. Xuzhu probably has 30 times more internal energy than Lin Pingzhi, and yet their leaping ability is about the same? How can that be? Perhaps physics can help explain this, maybe leaping over empty space below creates suction, and the downpulling makes leaping more difficult than leaping over solid ground?

林平之提
起左掌，拍拍两声，打了余沧海两个耳光。余沧海怒极，但对方右手仍然按在自己心房之
上，这少年内力不济，但稍一用劲，便能震坏自己心脉，这一掌如将自己就此震死，倒也
一了百了，最怕的是他以第四五流的内功，震得自己死不死，活不活，那就惨了。在一刹
那间他权衡轻重利害，竟不敢稍有动弹。林平之打了他两记耳光，一声长笑，身子倒纵出
去，已离开他有三丈远近

It wasn't stated as a single leap. It could be multiple steps. It justs says that he shot his body back out in the time of a long laugh and was already 3 zhang away.

Another way to explain it may be that he had learnt PXJF, which specialises in speed and movement.

[PJ]

It wasn't stated as a single leap. It could be multiple steps. It justs says that he shot his body back out in the time of a long laugh and was already 3 zhang away.

Possibly, I guess.

Another way to explain it may be that he had learnt PXJF, which specialises in speed and movement.

speed and movement, yes, but probably not the kind that goes "through the air."

I think the only way people in DGSD can cross a 5 zhang valley is if they receive a gentle wave blow from the Sweeper Monk.

[CC]

I think the only way people in DGSD can cross a 5 zhang valley is if they receive a gentle wave blow from the Sweeper Monk.

Or if The Lord of Throwing Objects Across Mountain SWORD GOD Zhuo Bufan threw them?

[PJ]

Re-reading some of the old posts, replying to one now:

The "fact" that the DGSD had a kungfu that was able to use chi as a sword, which is a skill that is unparalleled elsewhere in the JY universe "proves" that the level of martial arts was at least the highest in the known JY universe.

Just because DGSD has an "unparalled" kung fu, doesn't automatically make the era have the highest calibre of martial arts. In ROCH, we have a kung fu that could not be mastered unless one lived 1000 years, and its maximum power could be 8 times superior to the Greats. That's kind of unparalled don't you think? Or how about in SPW, one who practices Pixie Swordplay or Dugu 9 Swords for a short period of time, with almost zero internal energy, could already beat First Class Fighters who have good technique and 5 to 10 times more internal energy. Certainly I can't think of any kung fu from DGSD that could claim the same results. Finally, I am absolutely sure that no art from DGSD GUARANTEES a perfect strike, the way that Taishan's highest level of swordplay provides. So, in fact, every era has some "unparalled" kung fu which are unique in their own ways.

[sarakoth]

we must also remember yi jin jing

the shaolin abbot in SPW mastered it and there were some fighters that could match him

in DGSD, you tan zhi practiced it for a short period of time and rocketed to first rate level

[duguxiaojing]

(Dugu Qiubai was said to be extremely happy if someone could make him block one stance. Dugu Qiubai's era was right after DGSD, so maybe even elite fighters as powerful as Murong Bo could not make him block a stance !.!)

Is that really and impressive thing? DG9J has no blocking stances, so maybe Dugu would not block regardless of the quality of his opponents. Actually I dont ever recall LHC blocking when using DG9J, even when faced against a uber opponent like DFBB.

[PJ]

Is that really and impressive thing? DG9J has no blocking stances, so maybe Dugu would not block regardless of the quality of his opponents. Actually I dont ever recall LHC blocking when using DG9J, even when faced against a uber opponent like DFBB.

Technically, Linghu Chong did have to block against Ren Woxing:

令狐冲一凛，只觉来剑中竟无半分破绽，难以仗剑直入，制其要害，只得横剑一封，剑尖斜指，含有刺向对方小腹之意，也是守中有攻。

[duguxiaojing]

hmmm...good point never noticed that before. But even this block had the intent to attack RWX and their was no real contact. (Impossible because of the wooden swords?)

[PJ]

3) In DGSD, no one could leap 5 zhang forward. In SPW, 2 ordinary fighters (by Linghu Chong standards) could effortlessly leap several zhang backward.

To revisit this point, I've found that Xiao Feng was only able to leap backward 1 zhang when he subdued Quan Guanqing at Apricot Forest. That's nothing compared to the 4th tier SPW fighters' leaping backwards of 2+ zhang! Plus, Jin Yong gave more praise to the 4th tier SPW fighters for their feat.

This is suggestive proof that Xiao Feng < random 4th tier SPW fighter, at least in the field of leaping.

[ChronoReverse]

Stirring the pot some more? I'll sling some mud too.

To some people "Obviously DGSD is better because they have invisible sword chi" I find it hilarious how debate about that particular skill devolved into "6MSJ's power comes from the technique of using all 6 swords at once". I guess the pet idea of "internal energy > all" breaks down too easily.


In any case, here's something interesting:
*RWX in XAJH

This laugh shook the tiles inside the room while Linghu Chong started to feel an unbearable pain. He started to hear a "weng, weng" sound inside his ear and felt blood rushing up his stomach. That person took a step forward and used both hands to push towards the wall. A thunderous sound was heard. In the middle of the wall was now a big hole, which that person then used to enter the room.

*For DGSD, we'll use our favorite XF's case.

In both cases, the person in question was in a manor of the expensive and fancy sort. This implies that their walls would not be a simple cheap panel of wood but would at the very least be made of good quality brick or more likely, stone blocks.

RWX is able to casually step towards such a wall and just push it apart making a big hole. Surely XF should've been able to do just that and escape through the side of the manor instead of fighting towards the exit?

(In case anyone is wondering, this is tongue-in-cheek and the "theory" is full of logical holes)




The serious part is that somehow LHC's internal energy is still not enough to keep his temperance agaisnt RWX's laughter. RWX is simply monstrous in terms of internal energy.

Speaking of which, internal energy seems to be rather deficient in ROCH. Some random guy who "had received some pointers in internal energy" was able to withstand YG's roar even though he was already sick and dying in the first place. What is up with that?




Incidentally, how far is a "zhang"?

If Mr. Paint did not change his move midway, then his right elbow would be cut off before he could incur any damage to his opponent. But Mr. Paint was a true swordsman with great skills. In the great hurry, he quickly lowered his wrist and thrust his sword at the floor. Relying on the counterforce from the floor, he flipped backward and landed steadily in over twenty feet. At the time his back was only a few inches from the wall. If he had used a little bit more strength when he executed the back flip, his back would have collided with the wall, which would have undoubtedly put a big dent on his reputation as a Martial Arts Grandmaster. But even so, the escape was simply too awkward, and his face showed some slight purplish red from the rush.

Mr. Paint didn't even have to jump 20 feet. He struck the ground with his sword and sent himself flying back 20 feet precisely. This was during a charging thrust where he had only a split second to execute the move.

Okay, a zhang is about 10 feet so Mr. Paint did a 2 zhang jump =O

Right after that

If Mr. Paint followed through with the sword strike, before his blade could reach Linghu Chong’s head, his five fingers holding his long sword would have been sliced off first. As he watched his opponent’s long sword sliding upward against his own blade, a move that could not be countered, having no other alternative, he struck down heavily with his left palm. The energy shot out from his palm hit the floor with a loud boom, and utilizing the counterforce, he leapt backward and landed over ten feet away.

Now he does a 10 feet (1 zhang) jump using LDA!




Incidentally, about the wood carving incident in XAJH, the most interesting thing was not that this feat was performed but that LHC was more concerned about being impressed that FZ was able to detect LHC's breathing and immediately discern the origin of his internal energy rather than that they wrote on a wooden support pillar with their fingers. That's right, in XAJH, writing on wood isn't so impressive that someone would be in shock about it.

[ChanceEncounter]

To revisit this point, I've found that Xiao Feng was only able to leap backward 1 zhang when he subdued Quan Guanqing at Apricot Forest. That's nothing compared to the 4th tier SPW fighters' leaping backwards of 2+ zhang! Plus, Jin Yong gave more praise to the 4th tier SPW fighters for their feat.

This is suggestive proof that Xiao Feng < random 4th tier SPW fighter, at least in the field of leaping.

LMC also leapt a zhang backwards when fighting HR.

In that case, LMC is just as capable as XF in the field of leaping!

[ChronoReverse]

It wasn't just 1 zhang, it was 2!

Now the child in question was at arms length. Li Mochou noticed the look and thought: “If she only wants to hug the baby, why that sudden change?” She hurriedly pulled back and leapt two zhangs backwards. She barely touched the ground as Huang Rong followed closing on her. Expecting an attack, Li Mochou heaved the sack at Huang Rong’s face.

Seems to me that JY just uses a random distance to suit his needs =)



In any case, a distance of 2 zhang is clearly an easy distance to leap in both ROCH and XAJH terms.