Qi Sword (6 Mei Shen Jian) = No Sword? Duan Yu vs Dugu Qiubai? :p

[S Beaver]

Since your post is long, I'll concentrate on the main points:
1. Dugu's last stage is purely in theory.
2. Dugu couldn't manage to reach that stage of using neither Qi nor weapons, as well as stances to overcome opponents (because if he did, he would be able to overcome all the other kinds of kung fu which use Qi n Weapons, that is he would defeat Sweeper Monk).
=> It seems that you're believing in something which doesn't exist and cannot be approached.

You still can't answer the question on "In theory, how can he attack at his last stage without going against physics".
In this case, I'll say:
Dugu's last stage theory in your opinion is just a product of his illusion like the 13th level of Dragon Elephant Divine Art of Jinlun Guoshi.

yes, in a way, it is ALL theory. if dugu was truely a master of dugu 9 swords, he should (by theory) be able to find the loophole of all types of martial arts, including that of sweeper monk, whom he obviously is not supposes to be able to defeat (according to JY)...

...though we know nothing of dugu's own existence, we can only speculate by the legacy he leaves for YG & LHC.

One thing I do have to clarify once more is… attaining a higher level of understanding or enlightment for sword arts doesn’t necessarily mean more powerful. Once again, LHC most likely has the highest understanding for swords in XAJH besides feng qing yang, but he is still far from being number one in the XAJH realm. other examples such as XLN probably had a better understanding for swords than GWM but she is not necessarily more powerful than him…assuming that he fights at 100% potential. Therefore, even if dugu is able to reach the ultimate stage, it doesn’t mean he will be #1 in JY universe…

on the mention of sweeper monk, in the sad two pages he appeared in, his massively impressive qi was only used on defense...when it actually came to him attacking, there was no actual evidence of him using extreme qi dependent movements (ie, to tap murong bo's bai hui xue).

2. What I want to know is not "How exactly can Dugu attack when he reaches his last stage", but: "In Dugu's fans' theory, without Qi and Weapons, how can each move of his can harm people".

i am mostly deducing from the "tomb" of dugu's last "sword".

I quote: "“四十岁后，不滞于物，草木竹石均可为剑。自此精修，渐进于无剑胜有剑之境。"

it says dugu may use anything as a sword, but never technically said he used “nothing”, only “no sword beats sword”. using “nothing” is pure speculation. Taken that he is able to use a wooden sword just as efficiently as a normal sword without necessarily putting in the extra qi (this shouldn’t seem too absurd since we see LHC perform something similar and even one of the Heng shan sect elders mentions about using wooden swords at high levels). then, if he can use a wooden sword, why not just a tree branch? And if a tree branch, why not a stem, a flower, a petal, a piece of dirt, dust…or nothing?

Even if it seems unlikely that dugu is able to use "nothing", it seems also just as unlikely that his final stage is reduced to something such as 6 mai. Why? 6 mai is not just extremely dependent on qi but also on fingers itself, meaning if dugu got one of his arms chopped off like YG or were missing some of his fingers, he'd be unable to perform his attacks. Perhaps it is just my personal opinion, but i would think the peak of swordplay would be much more flexible than this...

[Ghaleon]

You gotta be kidding right?

DCQB reached a level of enlightenment in his martial arts. He is at the very least comparable to the likes of Sweeper Monk and the Siu Yu Pai elders.

He is not using sword OR chi. HE reached the Zen level of emptiness.

I'm pretty sure that was Jin Yong the author's intent. That is why DCQB is so mysterious.

No way in hell is Duan Yu's 6MSJ even close. I can't believe this is even debated.

[batmankiller]

Exactly DY couldn't even control it nor was it as refined as Dugu.. and Dugu less internal than DY? To be able to use a wooden sword you'd have to have the internal energy simplier to YG if not more.. and YG mastered it .. yes this has been agreed on and confirmed by the community of knowledge here.

Furthermore.. RongYingMin, authors > whatever the hell is stated in the novel.

If the author said he wanted say.. Guo Fu to 'appear' to be stronger than SM.. then she is.. although we'd have to seriously reanylaze his writing ability.. it's what the author agrees and wants to agree that's final. Considering we're doing these so-called debates, I do believe the author was not writing every character and word with such anlyasis as to ensure that there would be no contradictions so we could have a clear debate. No he simply wrote for the story, so I think in the end it's what he says that really counts.

[batmankiller]

it says dugu may use anything as a sword, but never technically said he used “nothing”, only “no sword beats sword”. using “nothing” is pure speculation. Taken that he is able to use a wooden sword just as efficiently as a normal sword without necessarily putting in the extra qi (this shouldn’t seem too absurd since we see LHC perform something similar and even one of the Heng shan sect elders mentions about using wooden swords at high levels). then, if he can use a wooden sword, why not just a tree branch? And if a tree branch, why not a stem, a flower, a petal, a piece of dirt, dust…or nothing?

Even if it seems unlikely that dugu is able to use "nothing", it seems also just as unlikely that his final stage is reduced to something such as 6 mai. Why? 6 mai is not just extremely dependent on qi but also on fingers itself, meaning if dugu got one of his arms chopped off like YG or were missing some of his fingers, he'd be unable to perform his attacks. Perhaps it is just my personal opinion, but i would think the peak of swordplay would be much more flexible than this...

If we take YG's plot into consideration and basic logic I think it is necessary for the extra qi when using something other than a steel sword. I mean to compromise for the stability and the durability of say.. tree branch the extra internal would have to be introduced into it..so to say no extra qi has to be jetstreamed into the weapon is absurd

[shenlong]

EVERYTHING here is speculation and guesses. I think most of you should stop concentrating on whether Dugu can beat Sweeper and analyze how possibly his sword skills would work. Many of you seem to be bending your theory so that either Dugu or Sweeper would win, please be more objective.

As for me, I really can't see 6MSJ as the same as Dugu's ultimate stage. I always think 6MSJ as a stronger form of 1YZ, but the Qi released is in sword shaped. I have always thought that Dugu's last stage was when his body (any part) could be used to defeat a real sword. (e.g. he can use a finger to chop down a tree)

[Ken Cheng]

Furthermore.. RongYingMin, authors > whatever the hell is stated in the novel.

This is an odd position to take since the authors make their statements through the facts they present in the novel. Are we supposed to read the author's minds beyond what they indicate in the text? And for what reason would an author do the equivalent of, "This is what I wrote, but just kidding. I intended something totally different, but I'm not telling anybody."

Makes no sense at all.

[batmankiller]

This is an odd position to take since the authors make their statements through the facts they present in the novel. Are we supposed to read the author's minds beyond what they indicate in the text? And for what reason would an author do the equivalent of, "This is what I wrote, but just kidding. I intended something totally different, but I'm not telling anybody."

Makes no sense at all.

Hence, why I said we'd have to uh re-anylaze JY's writing ability if that BS was said.. but what I'm saying is sometimes there might be contradictions that make other fighters have a contention in power or make them seem more powerful than others, with certain other characters. I think we all agreed that when JY wrote his first two novels ROCH and LOCH, he didn't predict that we would all be making debates like these so throughout the novel especially cross-novels there might be events that make other characters stronger/weaker compared to others than what JY really intended to be. Especially our over-analyzation and stuff. What I'm trying to say is there are contradictions made in the novel/stuff made unclear due to our pickyness, however in these cases I think we should take JY's word if in an interview/whatever he writes about a certain character and their abilities.

[Dugu Turtle]

I don't think that Dugu Qiu Bai's no-sword stage implied the use of qi swords.
My concept of the sword-less state is that Dugu grasped certain combative truths transcending weapon/empty-hand fighting. The qi sword idea is too limiting IMO.

[Ken Cheng]

I think we should take JY's word if in an interview/whatever he writes about a certain character and their abilities.

The problem with that is that Jin Yong has been known to contradict himself from interview to interview. He does have a tendency to change his mind about things, which is his prerogative, but which also means nothing can be taken to be set in stone.

[Pacifian]

You gotta be kidding right?

No way in hell is Duan Yu's 6MSJ even close. I can't believe this is even debated.

Because in your opinion, the debate is won before it has properly started. You have armed yourself with stuff like these pulled out from thin air:

"He is not using sword OR chi. HE reached the Zen level of emptiness."

Enough said, really. And did you just mention author's intent?

EVERYTHING here is speculation and guesses. I think most of you should stop concentrating on whether Dugu can beat Sweeper and analyze how possibly his sword skills would work. Many of you seem to be bending your theory so that either Dugu or Sweeper would win, please be more objective.

Um ... maybe because by "analysing how possibly (Dugu's) sword skills would work" you need to speculate and guess??? We only get miserable fragments of text with DGQB in it, and most of them are his angsty cries of "Seeking a Loss". We can also turn to look at LHC and YG, but then again, we know that DGQB went even further than they did. When there's hardly anything left to analyse, you turn to speculation.

The only problem is this: what is reasonable speculation and what isn't?

I have always thought that Dugu's last stage was when his body (any part) could be used to defeat a real sword. (e.g. he can use a finger to chop down a tree)

Like many people before me, I would like to point out that DGQB's last stage shouldn't be this way. Because if this statement of yours holds true, then many of JY's protagonists would have reached this stage. You mean Xiao feng, Xu Zhu, Duan Yu, Guo Jing, Zhang Wu Ji cannot do it? Then what about the antagonists? They too can't do it? So practically, all you have to do is walk in with a sword and only people whose skills have reached the level of "overcoming the sword without a sword" can harm you? You mean that Dugu just wasted decades trying to figure out the pinnacle of swordsmanship just to realise that profound internal energy was all it takes?

Dugu Qiubai's goal was to accomplish mastery in swordplay. It was *NOT* to use weaker (and eventually, non-existent) weapons just to spite the enemy, because that's no longer swordplay.

The problem with that is that Jin Yong has been known to contradict himself from interview to interview.

The same problem also occurs in his written works.

[Pacifian]

If we take YG's plot into consideration and basic logic I think it is necessary for the extra qi when using something other than a steel sword. I mean to compromise for the stability and the durability of say.. tree branch the extra internal would have to be introduced into it..so to say no extra qi has to be jetstreamed into the weapon is absurd

How about adding LHC's story into the picture?

You can substitute better skills for more internal energy, to prevent being disadvantaged by the restrictions your new weapon has placed on you. LHC did it: he did not allow his opponent to gain an advantage over him by competing the sharpness of their blades; he just went on a nasty assault. I don't find it absurd at all.

[batmankiller]

How about adding LHC's story into the picture?

You can substitute better skills for more internal energy, to prevent being disadvantaged by the restrictions your new weapon has placed on you. LHC did it: he did not allow his opponent to gain an advantage over him by competing the sharpness of their blades; he just went on a nasty assault. I don't find it absurd at all.

He wasn't using a wooden sword, I"m talking about the wooden sword stage. He was using a normal sword so you could overcome everything with just technique and blow it out. Plus the other person didn't totally overcome him in internal anyways.

[shenlong]

Um ... maybe because by "analysing how possibly (Dugu's) sword skills would work" you need to speculate and guess??? We only get miserable fragments of text with DGQB in it, and most of them are his angsty cries of "Seeking a Loss". We can also turn to look at LHC and YG, but then again, we know that DGQB went even further than they did. When there's hardly anything left to analyse, you turn to speculation.

The only problem is this: what is reasonable speculation and what isn't?

I'm not against speculation, I am however against people who believe sweeper monk is above dugu and then post making dugu's sword stages seem weak, and then there are people who are dugu fans and overzealously proclaim that his sword stances (or lack of) is unbeatable and completly tehorize off of that.

On another note, there is no way DY internal enegery=Dugu's, I just can't see that.

[Pacifian]

I'm not against speculation, I am however against people who believe sweeper monk is above dugu and then post making dugu's sword stages seem weak, and then there are people who are dugu fans and overzealously proclaim that his sword stances (or lack of) is unbeatable and completly tehorize off of that.

You will have to prove how these people are "overzealous", in any case. The premise on which you are complaining about ... I don't see it. Regarding that particular discussion you are talking about, it's between both Huang Rong and S Beaver and I do not see how either of them was fervently trying to defend their idol or disparage the character which they do not like.

On another note, there is no way DY internal enegery=Dugu's, I just can't see that.

I would have agreed with you until the time when I had made a thread on "Duan Yu being overrated". The responses were, well, that he was *UNDER-rated* instead. From that point on, I was quite unclear where he stands where internal energy is concerned.

[shenlong]

DYs internal energy, I don't think, can compare to Yang Guos, even if he had sucked in a lot of it.

[Ken Cheng]

DYs internal energy, I don't think, can compare to Yang Guos, even if he had sucked in a lot of it.

Deun Yu's inner power significantly surpassed Kiu Fung's (and by extension, Kau Mor Tze's, Mo Yung Bok's, and Siu Yeun San's). Most observers believe that each of those DGSD elite fighters were at least as powerful (in terms of inner power) if not more powerful than the Greats at the end of ROCH (which includes Yeung Gor).

[shenlong]

I've been wondering, Dugu said he had no match under heaven, about what time did he live?

Yang Guo guessed that the eagle was ~100 years old MAYBE, so if we go by this Dugu would have lived around the time of DGSD. Hmmm...

Well we'd have to assume that he took the bird in young and raised it himself.

[Ren Wo Xing]

For most of the story, Duan Yu's internal energy was at around the level of Xiao Feng, who was at around the level of Jiumozhi.

Later, towards the end, he drained Jiumozhi -completely- dry, saving his life in the process (he was fire deviating) but draining Jiumozhi so completely that Jiumozhi lost ALL of his internal energy. Effectively, this should have doubled his internal energy to twice of Xiao Feng's.

Do you think Yang Guo's internal energy=Twice that of Xiao Feng's?

[Ken Cheng]

I've been wondering, Dugu said he had no match under heaven, about what time did he live?

Based on the accumulated information from DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH, Dook Goo Kau Bai probably lived and reigned during the period after DGSD and before the First Mt. Hua Sword Tournament (which is approximately 60-80 years).

A possible contemporary of Dook Goo Kau Bai's was Wong Seung, the creator of the 9 Yum Jen Ging. One popular speculation has been that Dook Goo Kau Bai had met and fought against Wong Seung at one point, and that Dook Goo might have injured Wong. There is no proof that this actually ever occurred, however, or that Dook Goo and Wong really were contemporaries, although they do indeed fit within the same general time scheme.