Gwok Jing/Yeung Gor and the matter of revenge

[flyingfox2002]

Does it matter what his reason were to go to the war?

It doesn't make him personally responsible for what happened. It would've happened REGARDLESS. He was there and contributed to the victory of course. but it's still incredible disingenuous to presume that GJ was the REASON the Mongols became strong and committed their acts.

It's this sort of association that's absolutely ridiculous.

Here's the point.

The key is not whether GJ is responsible for or how much he is responsible for those civilians' deaths, the key is that he immersed himself in the war and thus involved innocent people in his quest for vengence. Is that really better than what YG tried to do against GJ? Think about it, clearly if GJ could get his hands on WYHL privately he wouldn't necessarily participate in the war, but if YG could take out GJ face to face, he wouldn't have had to resort to the underhanded ambush that he was planning. Basically, both men seeked vengeance in spite of obvious collateral damage potential.

I do NOT have any problems with GJ killing people or leading armies to kill people for vengeance. I am not someone who's always preaching or praising "morality." What I have a problem with is hypocrisy. Namely, people who knock YG for losing sight of the big picture because of thirst for revenge but who has no problem with GJ doing the same thing. Or perhaps because the people that the Mongols ran over in LOCH aren't Han, it's ok?

[Ken Cheng]

Here's the point.

The key is not whether GJ is responsible for or how much he is responsible for those civilians' deaths, the key is that he immersed himself in the war and thus involved innocent people in his quest for vengence. Is that really better than what YG tried to do against GJ? Think about it, clearly if GJ could get his hands on WYHL privately he wouldn't necessarily participate in the war, but if YG could take out GJ face to face, he wouldn't have had to resort to the underhanded ambush that he was planning. Basically, both men seeked vengeance in spite of obvious collateral damage potential.

I do NOT have any problems with GJ killing people or leading armies to kill people for vengeance. I am not someone who's always preaching or praising "morality." What I have a problem with is hypocrisy. Namely, people who knock YG for losing sight of the big picture because of thirst for revenge but who has no problem with GJ doing the same thing. Or perhaps because the people that the Mongols ran over in LOCH aren't Han, it's ok?

For Gwok Jing, though, it was never *just* about revenge against Yeun Nan Hung Lit. That was a part of the overall goal...a BIG part of it, in fact, but Gwok Jing also naively believed that his service to Genghis Khan was a heroic quest. Gwok Jing believed (erroneously, but sincerely) that he was leading the Mongol forces on a noble mission to deliver a nation and its people (the Sung) from the yoke of oppression at the hands of a foreign invader (the Jin). That was a simplistic, naive, and ultimately inaccurate worldview, of course, as Gwok Jing would ultimately discover, but it was not one adopted entirely out of selfish impulses.

Yeung Gor's motive to avenge Yeung Hong, on the other hand, had no greater implications as far as he was concerned besides his personal concerns. There was no greater good that Yeung Gor wanted to serve in killing the Gwok couple; he just wanted personal revenge.

[Bangs]

Interesting..... more YG vs GJ threads. I'll be reading it in silence, Im sure there's only one direction this thread is headed to....... more YG vs GJ threads.

[Ken Cheng]

Interesting..... more YG vs GJ threads. I'll be reading it in silence, Im sure there's only one direction this thread is headed to....... more YG vs GJ threads.

Yeah, and you know how they're going to go?

YG Fans: You guys (GJ fans) hate Yeung Gor because you're all racists!

GJ Fans: Oh, yeah? Well, you Yeung Gor lovers are all a bunch of Communists. Only some kind of Communist could like Yeung Gor!


Or something like that...

[CC]

Yeah, and you know how they're going to go?

YG Fans: You guys (GJ fans) hate Yeung Gor because you're all racists!

GJ Fans: Oh, yeah? Well, you Yeung Gor lovers are all a bunch of Communists. Only some kind of Communist could like Yeung Gor!

Or something like that...

YG Fans: You guys (GJ fans) hate Yeung Gor because you're all racists!

GJ Fans: Oh, yeah? Well, you Yeung Gor lovers are all a bunch of Communists. Only some kind of Communist could like Yeung Gor!

ZBF Fans : SWORD GOD卓不凡的剑最厲害!


.

[Pacifian]

Think about it, clearly if GJ could get his hands on WYHL privately he wouldn't necessarily participate in the war,

GJ's goal was more than just WYHL. WYHL was one of the reasons GJ participated in the war for. True enough, the death of GJ's father had a major part to play in GJ's war decision; but GJ's fury was ignited not just because of his father's death, but rather -- of the atrocities committed by the Jin, and also it was in his power to liberate the Song and the Mongols from the Jin's tyranny.

but if YG could take out GJ face to face, he wouldn't have had to resort to the underhanded ambush that he was planning.

I don't remember GJ ever once considered toadying to HYS, just to seize the opportunity to strike him in the dark, even when he knew he was no match for HYS.

Basically, both men seeked vengeance in spite of obvious collateral damage potential.

Regarding the 'obvious collateral damage potential' part, what YG did was an act of ignorance and self centredness -- showing absolutely no concern for who might be implicated in the process; GJ, by contrast, knew fully well that the people he would be killing are his enemies: those who tyrannised his people, and by killing them he would end all the fighting.

[RongYingMin]

YG Fans: You guys (GJ fans) hate Yeung Gor because you're all racists!
GJ Fans: Oh, yeah? Well, you Yeung Gor lovers are all a bunch of Communists. Only some kind of Communist could like Yeung Gor!
ZBF Fans : SWORD GOD 卓不凡的剑最厲害!
.

I think Zhou Bufan should sneakily seek Xu Zhu for revenge instead of participating in this debate.

[dbx]

For Gwok Jing, though, it was never *just* about revenge against Yeun Nan Hung Lit. That was a part of the overall goal...a BIG part of it, in fact, but Gwok Jing also naively believed that his service to Genghis Khan was a heroic quest. Gwok Jing believed (erroneously, but sincerely) that he was leading the Mongol forces on a noble mission to deliver a nation and its people (the Sung) from the yoke of oppression at the hands of a foreign invader (the Jin). That was a simplistic, naive, and ultimately inaccurate worldview, of course, as Gwok Jing would ultimately discover, but it was not one adopted entirely out of selfish impulses.

Yeung Gor's motive to avenge Yeung Hong, on the other hand, had no greater implications as far as he was concerned besides his personal concerns. There was no greater good that Yeung Gor wanted to serve in killing the Gwok couple; he just wanted personal revenge.

Avenging one's father is an act of supreme righteousness in the etiquette of that time. It is a moral imperative. We cannot judge that action based on modern morality.

For Guo Jing, WYHL's death would have been a moral imperative, he was raised everyday to seek the death of WYHL. To try and excuse this as a secondary concern of his is to me inaccurate. For me it is very difficult for me to believe that his primary motive for doing this was not revenge but some heroic adventure.

Yang Guo actually was far more conscientious then Guo Jing in this respect, he knew his actions was personal revenge and not a heroic adventure. He was not willing to help the Mongols break the walls of Xiang Yang to kill Guo Jing, thus he /had/ to resorted to more underhanded methods. Would you think any better of Yang Guo if he fought for the Khan as a general and sacked the city of Xiang Yang in order to kill Guo Jing.

It's funny when I think about it, but Yang Guo was probably more righteous because he wouldn't do what Guo Jing did do. Yang Guo was always looking for a way to save the lives of the innocent people in Xiang Yang and also kill the person that killed his father.

But wait, there's more....

"Yang Guo stretched out his arms and embraced her. Yang Guo’s soul was completely enchanted as he smelled the fragrance of Xiao Longnu’s scent mixed up with the scents of the surrounding flowers and trees. He seemingly lost himself and said softly, “Let’s just live like this happily for the next eighteen days; we don’t need to go and kill Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Living happily and peacefully for eighteen days is better than rushing about and fighting for our lives.”

Xiao Longnu smiled and said, “We’ll do whatever you say. Before, I wanted you to listen to me; but from now on, I’ll listen to you.” She has always had an icy cold disposition; but now she was filled with love. She felt warm all over and felt that the greatest thing in life was to listen to Yang Guo with all her heart and soul.

Yang Guo looked at her startled; and said slowly, “Why are there tears in your eyes?”

Xiao Longnu took his hand and stroked her cheek gently with the back of his hand. She said tenderly, “I… I don’t know.” After a while, she said, “It must be because I love you too much.”

Yang Guo said, “I know what you are sad about.”

Xiao Longnu lifted her head and suddenly tears burst from her eyes as she threw herself into his arms. She cried, “Guo’er, you… you… we’ve only got eighteen days; how is that enough?”

Yang Guo patted her shoulder lightly and said softly, “No, it’s not enough.”

Xiao Longnu said, “I want you to treat me like this forever; I want a hundred years, a thousand years, ten thousand years.”

Yang Guo lifted her head and kissed her on her pale red lips. He said resolutely, “Fine, we’ll go kill Guo Jing and Huang Rong.” When he tasted her tears on his tongue, the love is his heart was stirred and his whole body felt like as if it wanted to explode. "

Yang Guo only had a few days to live at this point.
If Guo Jing and Huang Rong only had 18 days to live, and all they had to do was kill Wan Yan Hong Lie?

[dbx]

Also, following the quotes you post here, dbx, it happens that H7G was hiding and seeing what HR did to MNC all along. However, although H7G warn/teach/lecture HR for her action, H7G didn't punish or try to control her action much after that. It may be because LOCH is just a novel which is not real. Or, JY may think that H7G was mature enough to see that it is just a immature behaviour of a girl who got spoiled and grow up with HYS. And she has her good boyfriend who keep her in check and, through her boyfriend, him (H7G) and more worldly experience, it will eventually give good influence on HR's character.

Again, the good thing about HR is that she has so many people as good examples for her to learn from...before she make any severe mistake to herself and others. This part is YG's unfortunate.

This is just my personal opinion.

But you have to say, it's pretty cold blooded regardless. And it is a novel and luckily nothing bad occurs out of it. Since we're only bringing up hypothetical situations that were resolved more or less cleanly in the course of the novels. There's no bloody knives or murder weapons for us to toss at each other, only moments of weakness, vulnerability and development.

Most of all the actions that Yang Guo did in his life was consistent with his upbringing and his personality. He was a righteous young man that developed into a righteous adult. He gained the power and strength to deal with the unjust, the bullies, his own demons and the small-mindedness of the world around him.

What irks me is when people disrespect him for invalid reasons especially when the same flaws or even more glaring flaws are passed over in others. I'm like Yang Guo in some ways, when I see injustice, I feel a mighty compulsion to fight it.

[Wu Xing]

But you have to say, it's pretty cold blooded regardless.

I wouldn't call it cold blooded. I say that HR know how to threat people. I believe many persons will do the same thing too. For examples, I believe H7Q may do the same thing (as one of his options) if he need to threat/scare someone. Remember, H7Q used to scare one of a Jin martial art group to death (and force him to sworn something) after this guy to capture many vergin girls and did something not so good with those girls (since he believe that, by doing this, he will get longer life or something). The event is mentioned in one of the LOCH chapter after GJ learn the 1st Dragon palm (I think the bad guy is the one that GJ drink his snake blood).

Therefore, although what HR did is overreact, reckless and not very nice, it is not cold blooded in my book.

[Wu Xing]

He was not willing to help the Mongols break the walls of Xiang Yang to kill Guo Jing, thus he /had/ to resorted to more underhanded methods.

I doubt YG think that far.

Would you think any better of Yang Guo if he fought for the Khan as a general and sacked the city of Xiang Yang in order to kill Guo Jing.

I don't think YG can be a general. First, he didn't know how to lead army at least at the time. Second, the Khan will not allow this. Think about this GWM, although has higher skill than YG at that time, didn't lead army. In fact, GWM try to kill/assasinate GJ/HR without the army battle.

Yang Guo was always looking for a way to save the lives of the innocent people in Xiang Yang and also kill the person that killed his father.

At that time, killing GJ/HR means most innocent people in Xiang Yang will die since they were one who lead people guarding the city. I don't think YG think that far about saving people but he did understand after seeing GJ fought along with people in the battle at Xiang Yang. That is why his feeling get swing back and forth.

Yang Guo only had a few days to live at this point.
If Guo Jing and Huang Rong only had 18 days to live, and all they had to do was kill Wan Yan Hong Lie?

When HR got a iron palm strike, HR condition when GJ send her to see YD was able to live only a few days (3 days?). GJ/HR try to pass all obstacles to see YD without really hurting or killing anyone (sure that they probably didn't want to do that). After seeing YD, they didn't try to force him. In fact, YD was the one who recognize HR's condition before GJ/HR told him (they don't even rush to tell him).

Before the journey to see YD, there is also a time that GJ and HR looked to each other with deeply in love. They didn't talk much but it shows the strong love bond between them.

There was also a time that GJ think HR died because of OYF (after HR run away from GJ because GJ didn't try to ask the reward from the Khan as HR suggest). GJ fought and live OYF for a while. He was not as good as OYF at that point. He fought him pretty directly with a few surprised attack sometimes. I don't think GJ, if he can, will lead Mongol army to kill OYF.


Just some of my comments.

[dbx]

I wouldn't call it cold blooded. I say that HR know how to threat people. I believe many persons will do the same thing too. For examples, I believe H7Q may do the same thing (as one of his options) if he need to threat/scare someone. Remember, H7Q used to scare one of a Jin martial art group to death (and force him to sworn something) after this guy to capture many vergin girls and did something not so good with those girls (since he believe that, by doing this, he will get longer life or something). The event is mentioned in one of the LOCH chapter after GJ learn the 1st Dragon palm (I think the bad guy is the one that GJ drink his snake blood).

Therefore, although what HR did is overreact, reckless and not very nice, it is not cold blooded in my book.

MNC is like one of the most innocent people in all of LOCH, how can you compare her to Jin martial artists?

What Huang Rong did is premeditated, calculating and she expected to get away with it, that seems very cold blooded to me. She did it to an innocent person, for a very selfish reason that is wrong under any moral compass, modern or wuxia.

[Wu Xing]

MNC is like one of the most innocent people in all of LOCH, how can you compare her to Jin martial artists?

What Huang Rong did is premeditated, calculating and she expected to get away with it, that seems very cold blooded to me. She did it to an innocent person, for a very selfish reason that is wrong under any moral compass, modern or wuxia.

It depends on how we look at it. To me, HR, at that time, was just a spoiled kid. Probably, I think, she looks on everyone who can make her loss her benefit are all the same whether how innocent they are.

Also, I don't think HR was calculating at that point but the way she did is more like an act by emotional impulse rathern than the real calculating. In my opinion, she may meet MNC and think like

"Oh...yes, so it is her who everyone want brother Guo to marry with. Hmmm...let scare her so that she will not be rival anymore. But how should I do? Hmmm...ok, let threat her with death to make her take an oath. Hee...Hee...she seems to be innocent. I'm sure that she will take an oath after I threat her.... It will be fun too..."

This is what I think it is in HR's head at that time. To me, it is not cold blooded. It is a kid thing. To you, it is upto your opinion.

Note, HR's character changed later on in the story (LOCH/ROCH).

[dbx]

I doubt YG think that far.

I don't think YG can be a general. First, he didn't know how to lead army at least at the time. Second, the Khan will not allow this. Think about this GWM, although has higher skill than YG at that time, didn't lead army. In fact, GWM try to kill/assasinate GJ/HR without the army battle.

At that time, killing GJ/HR means most innocent people in Xiang Yang will die since they were one who lead people guarding the city. I don't think YG think that far about saving people but he did understand after seeing GJ fought along with people in the battle at Xiang Yang. That is why his feeling get swing back and forth.

When HR got a iron palm strike, HR condition when GJ send her to see YD was able to live only a few days (3 days?). GJ/HR try to pass all obstacles to see YD without really hurting or killing anyone (sure that they probably didn't want to do that). After seeing YD, they didn't try to force him. In fact, YD was the one who recognize HR's condition before GJ/HR told him (they don't even rush to tell him).

Before the journey to see YD, there is also a time that GJ and HR looked to each other with deeply in love. They didn't talk much but it shows the strong love bond between them.

There was also a time that GJ think HR died because of OYF (after HR run away from GJ because GJ didn't try to ask the reward from the Khan as HR suggest). GJ fought and live OYF for a while. He was not as good as OYF at that point. He fought him pretty directly with a few surprised attack sometimes. I don't think GJ, if he can, will lead Mongol army to kill OYF.


Just some of my comments.

YG does think that far, especially when he's calm, you should read his thoughts. Yang Guo is actually a very careful planner, and this is demonstrated in his future planning of the three gifts for Guo Xiang.

What YG can and cannot do does not make what he will or will not do any more or less valid. Guo Jing conquered a city for the reason of vengeance. He might have thought he was on a heroic adventurer but he did not have the life of himself or Huang Rong either.

YG had to kill Guo Jing and Huang Rong within a small time frame to save his and Xiao Long Nu's life, he knew exactly what he need to do for this to succeed, and that is to kill the killers of his father, something that is not morally wrong in this moral situation.

If Huang Rong with her injury and all Guo Jing had to do was kill WYHL, in Samarkand to save her, I don't think there is a question Guo Jing would do it, this is because he did do this even without that reason. I'm not going to talk about YD because that was a different situation and the solution was not plainly in sight.

Whether or not Guo Jing attacked OYF or not is moot because he did use a army to take a city that was sheltering WYHL, the killer of his father.

And Samarkand was not the Jin Empire, Samarkand only harbored WYHL, he was just staying there. Anyone that has been saying that Guo Jing was fighting the Jin is wrong, he was conquering a separate group of people to get to 1 person. As far as I know Samarkand did nothing to Song China or Han People. To get an idea of where Samarkand is, it is in Uzbekistan which is is in Central Asia, the Jin Empire is in North East Asia.

[dbx]

Also, I don't think HR was calculating at that point but the way she did is more like an act by emotional impulse rathern than the real calculating.

A "innocent" child that tortures a dog and a grown man that tortures a dog still results in a tortured dog. Huang Rong certainly calculated her not getting caught and nobody knowing if she did have to hurt Mu Nian Ci. She took Mu Nian Ci's dagger too, and you can be sure if things didn't turn out good, Huang Rong would have no problem taking that prized heirloom.

Huang Rong is a bully at the least, a bully that made sure the adult was out of the picture. A intelligent, calculating bully to a person with less martial arts, and who's just very recently lost her adopted father. Not exactly her greatest moment to say the least.
She was not innocent, because she knew her actions were wrong, thus she was calculating.

Conversely, even in Yang Guo's darkest and most dangerous moments. His thoughts were concerned with, how can I let the killer of my father live. How can I kill this great hero, the city of Xiang Yang will fall if I do this and the cruel mongols will hurt all these people. Although his methods might be debatable, his inner thoughts reveal that he was conflicted with the righteousness of his actions rather then the avoidance of punishment.

Righteousness was not what Huang Rong was concerned with, but jealousy and getting away with it.

[Wu Xing]

YG does think that far, especially when he's calm, you should read his thoughts.

Maybe you can quote statements in ROCH here. I don't have ROCH novel with me right now.

What YG can and cannot do does not make what he will or will not do any more or less valid.

It does. Since, if he can, it opens other options to him which he may or may not consider.

Guo Jing conquered a city for the reason of vengeance. He might have thought he was on a heroic adventurer but he did not have the life of himself or Huang Rong to consider.

It is a war (see below).

YG had to kill Guo Jing and Huang Rong within a small time frame to save his and Xiao Long Nu's life, he knew exactly what he need to do for this to succeed, and that is to kill the killers of his parents, something that is not morally wrong in this moral situation.

If Huang Rong with her injury and all Guo Jing had to do was kill WYHL, in Samarkand to save her, I don't think there is a question Guo Jing would do it. I'm not going to talk about YD or OYF because these are very different situations.

If WYHL is the one who guard the crucial entrance to the Song. GJ will think twice or three times to do. I believe GJ will not do and he will try to figure out another way to do. And there is always another way to do beside the killing...as you see, YG have another route to do so as well.

Whether or not Guo Jing attacked OYF or not is moot because he did use a army to take a city that was sheltering WYHL, the killer of his father. And Samarkand was not the Jin Empire, Samarkand only harbored WYHL, he was just staying there. Anyone that has been saying that Guo Jing was fighting the Jin is wrong, he was conquering a separate group of people to get to 1 person. As far as I know Samarkand did nothing to Song China or Han People. To get an idea of where Samarkand is, it is in Uzbekistan which is is in Central Asia, the Jin Empire is in North East Asia.

Maybe, you forget that it is a war. To truely finish the war, it has to disable the leader of the enemy if he (the enemy leader) can be capable to come and strike back. This is not a kid game or sport. Also GJ was an general of the Khan army. He cannot just leave. And everyone know that until WYHL was captured or killed, the victory over the Jin empire cannot be secured. I usually don't talk much about humanity during the war but the reason of the war should be justified. And, in my opinion, the war against Jin empire and the capture of WYHL was justified to me. Maybe it is not to you.

But, if I'm GJ and I don't have any personal revenge on WHYL, I will try to find a way to catch/kill WYHL, just for the sake of this war. Yes, I try to have minimal killing. But, if I don't have other choices, I don't mind to have a direct attack. Sorry to say that, I'm also a martial art practitioner who also study a few war strategy and combat classics. What GJ did is justified under my eyes...probably not yours.

Whether or not Guo Jing attacked OYF or not is moot because he did use a army to take a city that was sheltering WYHL, the killer of his father.

Btw, I hope you remember that, at the time that I mentioned, GJ thought OYF was the cause of HR's death (if I remember correctly).

[Wu Xing]

A "innocent" child that tortures a dog and a grown man that tortures a dog still results in a tortured dog. Huang Rong certainly calculated her not getting caught and nobody knowing if she did have to hurt Mu Nian Ci. She took Mu Nian Ci's dagger too, and you can be sure if things didn't turn out good, Huang Rong would have no problem taking that prized heirloom.

Huang Rong is a bully at the least, a bully that made sure the adult was out of the picture. A intelligent, calculating bully to a person with less martial arts, and who's just very recently lost her adopted father. Not exactly her greatest moment to say the least.
She was not innocent, because she knew her actions were wrong, thus she was calculating.

Conversely, even in Yang Guo's darkest and most dangerous moments. His thoughts were concerned with, how can I let the killer of my father live. How can I kill this great hero, the city of Xiang Yang will fall if I do this and the cruel mongols will hurt all these people. Although his methods might be debatable, his inner thoughts reveal that he was conflicted with the righteousness of his actions rather then the avoidance of punishment.

Righteousness was not what Huang Rong was concerned with, but jealousy and getting away with it.

Honestly speaking, you are talking about HR at that time that she was only a few months leaving the Peach Blossom island where she live for the whole life until she run away from home. In the island, she live like a princess with the king HYS and all low-class servants (probably with ZBT too but he was just a comedy guy).

What do you expect from this spoiled kid? And who was raised by HYS in his own palace. Come on. You seem to understand YG via his unlucky background. I'm surprised that you didn't see it in HR's cases (at the early stage too). This is funny.

And I didn't say HR was right...and I also say YG was wrong as well.

[dbx]

Maybe, you forget that it is a war. To truely finish the war, it has to disable the leader of the enemy if he (the enemy leader) can be capable to come and strike back. This is not a kid game or sport. Also GJ was an general of the Khan army. He cannot just leave. And everyone know that until WYHL was captured or killed, the victory over the Jin empire cannot be secured. I usually don't talk much about humanity during the war but the reason of the war should be justified. And, in my opinion, the war against Jin empire and the capture of WYHL was justified to me. Maybe it is not to you.

Guo Jing's guilt is his own, and nobody else's. He is guilty in his own eyes, not everyones, a consensus on morality is hard to achieve, but he certainly thought what he did was wrong. If he believe he is guilty, I'm liable to accept it. Standards of morality were different in the novel then today, and Yang Guo's killing of Guo Jing would not be morally wrong if what Yang Guo believe was true. The fact that his suspicions were confirmed by Huang Rong and Guo Jing. Yang Guo believe he was doing the right thing, it would be hard to convince me otherwise.
Jin Yong's novels explores a third standard then either what were the standards of wuxia or modern era. This standard is expressed thru the action of their heros at their best.

In Jin Yong's novel, his protagonist was agonized by what he had done. You might explain away his actions but remember, the protagonist would not wish you to.

[dbx]

What do you expect from this spoiled kid? And who was raised by HYS in his own palace. Come on. You seem to understand YG via his unlucky background. I'm surprised that you didn't see it in HR's cases (at the early stage too). This is funny.

And I didn't say HR was right...and I also say YG was wrong as well.

Of course I understand HR's case. I like Guo Jing and Huang Rong, they are good folk, just stop giving Yang Guo flak.

Yang Guo was not right, of course not. But to say that Yang Guo was this oh so imperfect being and then to cast Huang Rong and Guo Jing as beacons of perfection? This is an injustice.

[Wu Xing]

Guo Jing's guilt is his own, and nobody else's. He is guilty in his own eyes, not everyones, a consensus on morality is hard to achieve, but he certainly thought what he did was wrong. If he believe he is guilty, I'm liable to accept it.

What GJ feel may not be what I feel. I'm not GJ. I believe that is the best solution GJ can find at that time. This is enough. I don't see many choices he had if he want to kill WYHL and he want to end the Jin empire for the sake of Song (there is no conflict in reasoning at that moment). Another way is assasination. But, as a war, if I'm Genhis Khan, I will destroy the city to make sure that no one will raise the army against me afterward (set an example). It is just a continuation of the war which will end soon. Yue Fei, after have many victories over Jin army, plan to regain all the Song land back from Jin and, if I remember correctly, he plan to get into the Jin land as well. This is just a way of the war. It happens to many "great" general in other countries too.

Standards of morality were different in the novel then today, and Yang Guo's killing of Guo Jing would not be morally wrong if what Yang Guo believe was true. The fact that his suspicions were confirmed by Huang Rong and Guo Jing. Yang Guo believe he was doing the right thing, it would be hard to convince me otherwise.
Jin Yong's novels explores a third standard then either what were the standards of wuxia or modern era. This standard is expressed thru the action of their heros at their best.

In Jin Yong's novel, his protagonist was agonized by what he had done. You might explain away his actions but remember, the protagonist would not wish you to.

The suspicions were confirmed but he didn't investigate the statement that HR said very well (as in my response to kidd's post) especially, as you try to say, he concerned about the killing will effect the people in Xiang Yang (so, different from GJ's case, YG has a conflict in reasoning at that moment). YG may think he did the right thing. Unfortunately, I think he did the wrong thing. You talk about 3 standards. I'm talking about the 4th standard...my standard. My standard may or may not be the same as the old, modern or protagonist standards.

The bottom line is that I think GJ didn't have much choice and he did his best. However, I think YG has other chioces but didn't try to do. Also, GJ act is "moral" in "my" standard but YG isn't. And I'm talking about "my" standard now.

Of course I understand HR's case. I like Guo Jing and Huang Rong, they are good folk, just stop giving Yang Guo flak.

Yang Guo was not right, of course not. But to say that Yang Guo was this oh so imperfect being and then to cast Huang Rong and Guo Jing as beacons of perfection? This is an injustice.

Well, I never say HR and GJ are beacons of perfection. However, in the case of their revenge (which is the topic here), I "feel" GJ commit the "right" thing (which he successed) while YG "almost" did the wrong thing (which he failed).


Although I plan to write the rest of my analysis, I think I don't need to write it now. The reasoning is somewhat clear now.