Should children read wuxia?

[Ken Cheng]

Wuxia fiction has action and adventure, but it also has its share of violence, sex, and other themes that would be considered "adult." Should children be permitted to read wuxia stories? At what age would it be appropriate to allow a child to read wuxia?

[Candide]

At what age would it be appropriate to allow a child to read wuxia?

I started reading Water Margin (possibly the most violent book ever written), Journey To The West (which is full of man-eating demons) and Romance of the Three Kingdoms (man cooking wife, general swallowing his own eyes, etc.) at the ripe old age of 5, so 5 is the appropiate age. While they aren't officially recognised as wuxia, Water Margin is very much a wuxia story, except that it has more heroes than the usual wuxia, little to no romance and no inner power.

In fact I had this discussion with my parents yesterday in a half serious manner, blaming them for exposing me to violent books and movies as a child. The thing is, it's not what the child reads or watches, it's who's there to explain things to him/her and whether the explanations are good or poor. My parents were always there to explain things to me and their explanations were always the full version, not the stupid-kid-doesn't-know-much cut-down one. While most of it flew over my head, I didn't wrongly associate them with other things, because they sounded different. Telling children half-truths is very dangerous. An example of that is the kid who hanged himself recently for being called "a bad person" after his dad explained to him that Saddam Hussein was hanged because he was "a bad person". In general, it will lead to the child having a screwed up image of the world he/she lives in which will take a lot of unlearning and a huge waste of time as he/she grows up (that is if he/she ever realises it at all).

Another very interesting thing we drew from that conversation is that none of us (myself and my parents) ever thought of Water Margin, for example, as a violent book. Mum and dad both read it when they were little kids, or rather, their fathers read (and explained) it to them. When we think of Water Margin, we think of the same thing: xia, loyalty, honour, sacrifice, brotherhood, etc. i.e its message is one of great qualities - values that children should definitely learn about as soon as possible. None of us realised that it has quite a lot of violence (my parents were very surprised when I mentioned it), because the main message is so strong that it overrides all others. I accept the violence in those stories as a fact of life. They were written in a period of wars and conflicts and in wars, people kill each other and chop heads off. It's that simple.

However, most modern books/comics/movies, while trying their best to sidestep violence, sex etc. just enough to avoid the PC brigade and the law, actually subtly (or not so subtly) use those to sell themselves, due to the taboo factor and natural human curiosity. What children will learn from those will be, not surprisingly, exactly those, as the moral values they seem to tell are just too thin and vague that the kids couldn't care less about them and can't remember any. I remember that my parents (and other older folks) used to ask me what I think of a book or a particular chapter I just read, and what I've learnt from it. Although my views were very simple back then, I did manage to learn a thing or two. What do kids these days say when they're asked the same thing about the comic or movie they just read or watched? Usually it's something along the line of "it's fun" or "it's cool'. For them it's all about entertainment and not much else.

[ChestNut]

i did when i was young, I don't see why not? But the ones I watched during that time were quite children-friendly ones.. haha, not much of sex but voilence is evident, then again, voilence is everywhr even in cartoons and don't we all enjoy voilence against baddies? It sorts of reinforce the fact that bad people get bad endings, though it might also means voilence can solve everything, but no, lucky enough, I didn't adopt that idea..

[warlock110]

I started reading Water Margin (possibly the most violent book ever written), Journey To The West (which is full of man-eating demons) and Romance of the Three Kingdoms (man cooking wife, general swallowing his own eyes, etc.) at the ripe old age of 5, so 5 is the appropiate age. While they aren't officially recognised as wuxia, Water Margin is very much a wuxia story, except that it has more heroes than the usual wuxia, little to no romance and no inner power.

In fact I had this discussion with my parents yesterday in a half serious manner, blaming them for exposing me to violent books and movies as a child. The thing is, it's not what the child reads or watches, it's who's there to explain things to him/her and whether the explanations are good or poor. My parents were always there to explain things to me and their explanations were always the full version, not the stupid-kid-doesn't-know-much cut-down one. While most of it flew over my head, I didn't wrongly associate them with other things, because they sounded different. Telling children half-truths is very dangerous. An example of that is the kid who hanged himself recently for being called "a bad person" after his dad explained to him that Saddam Hussein was hanged because he was "a bad person". In general, it will lead to the child having a screwed up image of the world he/she lives in which will take a lot of unlearning and a huge waste of time as he/she grows up (that is if he/she ever realises it at all).

Another very interesting thing we drew from that conversation is that none of us (myself and my parents) ever thought of Water Margin, for example, as a violent book. Mum and dad both read it when they were little kids, or rather, their fathers read (and explained) it to them. When we think of Water Margin, we think of the same thing: xia, loyalty, honour, sacrifice, brotherhood, etc. i.e its message is one of great qualities - values that children should definitely learn about as soon as possible. None of us realised that it has quite a lot of violence (my parents were very surprised when I mentioned it), because the main message is so strong that it overrides all others. I accept the violence in those stories as a fact of life. They were written in a period of wars and conflicts and in wars, people kill each other and chop heads off. It's that simple.

However, most modern books/comics/movies, while trying their best to sidestep violence, sex etc. just enough to avoid the PC brigade and the law, actually subtly (or not so subtly) use those to sell themselves, due to the taboo factor and natural human curiosity. What children will learn from those will be, not surprisingly, exactly those, as the moral values they seem to tell are just too thin and vague that the kids couldn't care less about them and can't remember any. I remember that my parents (and other older folks) used to ask me what I think of a book or a particular chapter I just read, and what I've learnt from it. Although my views were very simple back then, I did manage to learn a thing or two. What do kids these days say when they're asked the same thing about the comic or movie they just read or watched? Usually it's something along the line of "it's fun" or "it's cool'. For them it's all about entertainment and not much else.

is this why u turned out trisexial?

[Kara]

I agree with Candide about the explanation being the most important. My parents always gave me the 'stupid kid doesn't know much cut down one' and it left me very confused for quite a while. I remember thinking it was strange that XLN wanted to kill that taoist for 'touching' her and 'ruining her honour' when later Yang Guo was always holding her hands and hugging her. Didn't make sense to me until i was older and i understood that she had been raped.

[Ken Cheng]

Other than STATE OF DIVINITY and DUKE OF MOUNT DEER, the sexual references in Jin Yong are kind of mild and subtle, but Gu Long was often much more direct. Maybe select Jin Yong stories are somewhat kid-friendly, but I imagine that much of Gu Long's catalogue was not so kid-friendly.

[Candide]

Other than STATE OF DIVINITY and DUKE OF MOUNT DEER, the sexual references in Jin Yong are kind of mild and subtle, but Gu Long was often much more direct. Maybe select Jin Yong stories are somewhat kid-friendly, but I imagine that much of Gu Long's catalogue was not so kid-friendly.

Wuxia novels written by relatively unknown authors who just tried to make some quick cash are a lot "worse" than Gu Long's.

[bloodstar]

Wuxia novels written by relatively unknown authors who just tried to make some quick cash are a lot "worse" than Gu Long's.

Those are just porn stories trying to pass off as wuxia novels.

[Da Bao]

I watched wuxia movies starting from a very young age, and Candide is right about not giving children the 'half-truths' and 'stupid kid doesn't know much cut down one' because it'll just confuse them even more. Luckly for me my grandparents and parents didn't give me the 'stupid kid doesn't know much cut down one'.
I think Jin Yong's book are alright for children (aside from State of Divinity and Duke of the Mount Deer). The violence I never minded so much because it was everywhere and I accepted it as natural in wuxia. The books taught me many good moral values and it's very exciting to read.

[LuNaR]

I watched wuxia movies starting from a very young age, and Candide is right about not giving children the 'half-truths' and 'stupid kid doesn't know much cut down one' because it'll just confuse them even more. Luckly for me my grandparents and parents didn't give me the 'stupid kid doesn't know much cut down one'.
I think Jin Yong's book are alright for children (aside from State of Divinity and Duke of the Mount Deer). The violence I never minded so much because it was everywhere and I accepted it as natural in wuxia. The books taught me many good moral values and it's very exciting to read.

i dont see why duke of mount deer or state of divinity is bad... i mean kids are exposed to cussing, near naked girls, violence everyday.... u dunt even have to watch it on tv, juss walk outside the streets....

[dracnom]

Or if you want, go to Japan, there was a huge poster of DOA: extreme 2 with all the chicks in just bikinis and thongs (an advertisement).

[Huang Rong]

^^, I knew of the first wuxia novel when I was just 5 years old. And nothing unusual has happened to my personality and study so far. Now I'm telling LOCH with sensitive passages edited out to my 4-year-old nephew any-time I'm idle, just like what my Mum did with me in the old days. He he, I hope he'll become a HR+GJ-supporter when he grows older.

[puff_ng]

Except for Candide, no one's actually answered Ken's question.

First of all, I doubt most children would still touch a novel unless the media gives it as much attention as the Harry Potter series.

I'd say that it's suitable for high school students. Any younger, and there is a risk of mentally scarring a child, depending on which book he/she reads and his/her mentality, upbringing, cultural background, etc.

If you want to teach a child the values of honor, friendship, rightousness, etc. there are other media that can work just as well without the violence or sexual references in wuxia novels.

Actually, I think the old TVB adaptations are quite suitable for younger children.

[LuNaR]

Except for Candide, no one's actually answered Ken's question.

First of all, I doubt most children would still touch a novel unless the media gives it as much attention as the Harry Potter series.

I'd say that it's suitable for high school students. Any younger, and there is a risk of mentally scarring a child, depending on which book he/she reads and his/her mentality, upbringing, cultural background, etc.

If you want to teach a child the values of honor, friendship, rightousness, etc. there are other media that can work just as well without the violence or sexual references in wuxia novels.

Actually, I think the old TVB adaptations are quite suitable for younger children.

scarring a child? from a wuxia novel? are u kidding me? lets take duke of mount deer for example since most agreed this is the worst wuxia novel. ok list anything that will scare a child... ao bai? maybe that leader in the snake island? russians? or wxb's sexlife? i just dont see it. and if their 5, they wunt even understand sex, and even if they do, they cant do anything cause they cant have erections at the age of 5, i dont get whats so bad about it.

[Candide]

First of all, I doubt most children would still touch a novel unless the media gives it as much attention as the Harry Potter series.

That has nothing to do with the children, but all to do with whether their parents make the TV their babysitter.

I'd say that it's suitable for high school students. Any younger, and there is a risk of mentally scarring a child, depending on which book he/she reads and his/her mentality, upbringing, cultural background, etc.

Many generations, including ours, read those novels at a very young age and there hasn't been any problem. You can't wrap children in cotton wool. They will encounter those in other ways out of your control. Mental scars are vague psychological terms. If we're going down that path, I'd argue that teaching religion to children is the worst mental scar possible, as it would change their lives almost permanently, yet our society has no problem with that.

If you want to teach a child the values of honor, friendship, rightousness, etc. there are other media that can work just as well without the violence or sexual references in wuxia novels.

Which ones? Again, I'd argue that those values would be seen as lightweight unless they are tested against hardships: suffering, deaths, dangers, deprivation, oppression, etc. and violence is an essential part of those. The last thing you would want children to do is to take those for granted. I also disagree with teaching children that violence is <insert something bad here> by hiding the knowledge of it from them. Firstly there are too many outlets where they can be exposed to violence or the knowledge of it, so it's best that parents take charge and teach them about it. Secondly, violence is in our nature as human beings. It's best to learn about it asap rather than to ignore it.

[Sparky]

Whatever age they feel like it.

I don't know how it is where all of you live, but I know that in my society, there's enough stuff to corrupt kids that reading wuxia isn't going to be that big of a deal. I mean, you watch the news and there's something about 3,000 people dying in Iraq. It's a violent world out there. They're going to lose their innocence sooner or later, and sadly in our current society, it's likely to be sooner.

As for the sex part, kids lose their innocence about that real early now. Makes me wish they'd enjoy their carefree, innocent, naive days more. Today I went to the washroom and there was this rather...perverted...young boy (guessing he's about 8 or 9...well, he was short) who was in there and shouting, "I'm in the girls' bathroom" to all the other girls in his class. And then the girl went, "Get out! I have to go to the bathroom now." I guess I can't necessarily call him perverted, but yeah...don't go in opposite-sex washrooms once you're past five. Please.

Anyway, I've found that age restrictions never tend to work well. Here you've got the drinking age limit, which is 21, yet this just makes people more curious and they end up doing something idiotic like drunk driving.

[CC]

As long as the child is educated enough to read the novel, let him or her do it. No point in hiding reality from kids. I am of the opinion that if kids have no bloody clue what real life is like when young due to over-protective parenting, they'll grow up wierd.

And I agree that some aspects of religion is a lot more scary then wuxia novels. I mean, burning in sulphur pits for eternity? Or how about the image of Christ with nails driven through his wrists and ankles on the cross? Children see that from a young age too!

[Ardor]

As long as the violence is explained and such, i really don't see why not. Exposure to violent media alone does not cause aggressiveness in children. Exposure to violent media + lazy, neglectful parenting does... well, lazy, neglectful parenting does A LOT more.

[HuangYushi]

Wuxia fiction has action and adventure, but it also has its share of violence, sex, and other themes that would be considered "adult." Should children be permitted to read wuxia stories? At what age would it be appropriate to allow a child to read wuxia?

First, what is your definition of a "child"? Below 10 years old, 12, 15, 18?

Second, to read wuxia in what language? At the moment, the bulk of wuxia is available in the original Chinese, and a child would need at least several years worth of schooling in Chinese to pick up enough characters to begin reading the text. On top of that, what they can read may not be what they can comprehend. I'm not talking about higher-level comprehension like philosophy, etc, but basic comprehension, e.g. identifying that 兰花拂雪手 is a martial arts technique. The same probably goes for the other (mostly Asian) languages that wuxia is available in.

Therefore, unless a child (whatever your age-definition of one may be) is relatively advanced in his reading/comprehension, he won't find wuxia texts interesting enough to be considered a part of his recreational reading.

A gauge that we could use: Jin Yong, for instance, published his stories in his newspaper. These stories written in the kind of language and vocabulary range that most individuals who read the newspapers could understand, which roughly translates to about 6,000 Chinese characters. If a child can read the daily Chinese newspapers with sufficient understanding of the news items published, he should be able to read Chinese wuxia with a satisfactory level of both basic and higher-level (e.g. philosophical, etc) comprehension.

HYS

btw, Harry Potter does contain certain themes that are not particularly suitable for children in the 8-10 age-group, but by a clever combination of character design and marketing, these 8-10s (and their equally hoodwinked parents) devour Harry Potter like that's the only thing left to read.

[ech33]

well to me, i don`t think there's a problem for a child in reading wuxia. as nowadays, kids like to read comics, manga or novel.