Martial arts level of Four Royal Guardsmen of Dali (DGSD)?

[Ken Cheng]

How good were the martial arts of the Four Royal Guardsmen of Dali during DGSD? Based on DGSD '81, it seemed that it would take at least three of them to match up against either Great Evil # 3 (Divine Crocodile) or Great Evil # 4 (Wan Chung Hok), which isn't all that great. Were they weaker or stronger than their counterparts from L/ROCH?

I would say that at the very least, Chu Dan Sun was probably weaker than his descendent/successor Chu Tze Lau. In ROCH, Chu Tze Lau could defeat Fok Do, but Chu Dan Sun wasn't able to defeat any of the Evils by himself.

Unless, of course, even Divine Crocodile and Wan Chung Hok were each more powerful than Fok Do.

[kyss of the sword]

they were much weaker, remember that the condor trilogy guards were taught personally by yideng and knew yiyangzhi, they were at least in the prince Duan Zhengchun level, while Zhu Zhiliu was at least in the emperor baoding to duan yanqing level, he was rather able in his martial arts accomplishments.

[Ken Cheng]

they were much weaker, remember that the condor trilogy guards were taught personally by yideng and knew yiyangzhi, they were at least in the prince Duan Zhengchun level, while Zhu Zhiliu was at least in the emperor baoding to duan yanqing level, he was rather able in his martial arts accomplishments.

That's what I thought. How did the Four Dali Royal Guardsmen compare to Mo Yung F'uk's four henchmen (Jin Yong seemed to be in a rut with gangs of four in DGSD)? How did those henchmen compare to the Evils (except for Deun Yin Hing, who was obviously much more powerful)?

[augster123]

hmmm we might need a team war thread for this one.

MRF's henchmen should be the weakest here i think...its a toss-up between the 3 Evils and YD's FDRG.

[Ken Cheng]

hmmm we might need a team war thread for this one.

MRF's henchmen should be the weakest here i think...its a toss-up between the 3 Evils and YD's FDRG.

1 Deng's Four Guardsmen were awesome, but I'd limit this fight to the DGSD groups.

[augster123]

1 Deng's Four Guardsmen were awesome, but I'd limit this fight to the DGSD groups.

oooh in that case, no contest. 3 evils obviously ahead, then its a random toss up between the rest of them lackeys of MRF and Dali.

[yittz]

What makes you guys so sure the 3 evils ahead of MRF's lackeys? The way they lost to DYQ? Remeber DYQ defeated croc in a few stances too. MRF's weaker two were as good as the beggar elders, his top two even stronger (one able to take XF's palm). Evil's weakest was on par with beggar elders. So MRF's lackies should be near 3 evils.

[PJ]

Evil #2 kind of pulled a "Dongfang Bubai" on the 4 guards. They were pounding her with weapons, and she simply moved around freely and they could not touch her.

Deng Baichuan and Gongye Gan are probably on a similar level as the 3 Evils. Xiao Feng admitted that Gongye Gan's palm technique is #2 in the Jiangnan area, second only to Murong Fu. While, Jin Yong said that there were about 40 fighters at Juxian Manor who are superior to Evil #4 in martial arts.

[yittz]

Wondering if that 40 included beggar elders.

Another 3 people I would like to bring up, is the 3 guards under DZM - the flute guy who was>Evil #2, and the lightness kungfu guy who was no less than evil#4, and the digger.

[HuangYushi]

Another 3 people I would like to bring up, is the 3 guards under DZM - the flute guy who was>Evil #2, and the lightness kungfu guy who was no less than evil#4, and the digger.

Clarifications:

1. 3 guards under DZM

The 3 "guards" are actually ministers in the Dali Government.
a. Minister of Education [Si1 Tu2 司徒] Hua Hegen 华赫艮.
b. Minister of War [Si1 Ma3 司马] Fan Hua 范骅.
c. Minister of Works [Si1 Kong1 司空] Ba Tianshi 巴天石.

Collectively, these ministers were known as the Three Dukes of Dali [Da4 Li3 Guo2 San1 Gong1 大理国三公].

2. the flute guy

The "flute guy" is Gao Shengtai 高升泰, the Marquis of Shanchan [Shan4 Chan3 Hou2 善阐侯]. His position in the Dali Government was higher than the Three Dukes mentioned above.

For further information on the Three Dukes and Gao Shengtai, please see: http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...figures/people

3. who was>Evil #2

Here are some text excerpts and descriptions of the fights that took place between Gao Shengtai ("flute man") and Ye the Second ("Evil #2"):

*Gao Shengtai could move faster than Ye the Second, startling her so much that he managed to retrieve Zuo Shanshan safely and return the child to his father (Chapter 5). Succeeded because he had caught Ye unaware, 30% of which could be attributed to sheer luck (according to Zhu Danchen) (Chapter 6).

* Ye the Second could not help but take a few steps backwards when she realised that Gao's iron horizontal flute glowed red because it had been heated by the internal strength that Gao had exercised through his hands (Chapter 5).

* Gao Shengtai was not too much better in martial arts than Yue the Third ("Evil #3"). Had to rely on catching Ye the Second unaware again in order to get her to release Gu Ducheng and Zhu Danchen from their three-person fight. Observed the moves of Yue and Ye, and rehearsed his own moves against them many times in his mind before entering the fray and doing his best (Chapter 8).

For more comparisons, please see: http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yon...ts_comparisons
Note the *important* message at the top of the page.

4. the lightness kungfu guy who was no less than evil#4

The "lightness kungfu guy" is Ba Tianshi (see above).

Ba Tianshi was not only "no less than evil #4"; he was actually *better* than Yun Zhonghe, viz:

Ba Tianshi had faster feet movements during the use of qinggong than the long-limbed Yun Zhonghe; managed to stay an average of several chi (1 chi = 33.33 centimetres) ahead of Yun during the initial rounds of their first qinggong contest. Able to use his internal strength to send the calling cards of Duan Zhengming and Duan Zhengchun flying horizontally into Zhong Wanchou's hand without stopping his competition with Yun. Remained unaffected as the qinggong contest wore on, while Yun began panting loudly (Chapter 8).

5. the digger

The "digger" is Hua Hegen (see above).

[PJ]

Regarding the original question, lest not forget that the 4 guards under Emperor Duan Zhixing (Zhu Ziliu, Wu Santong, etc) were quite young before they became the disciples of the new Reverend Yideng. While serving the then-emperor, their martial arts level were probably significant lower, it may not be a stretch to be put on a similar scale as DGSD's 4 guards (Chu, Gu, Fu, Zhu).\

while Zhu Zhiliu was at least in the emperor baoding to duan yanqing level

I don't know about that...

Wondering if that 40 included beggar elders.

It was stated that the entire Beggar's Union only contained about 3 contenders (Elder Xu, the nameless Merit-Rewarding Elder, and the Execution Elder Bai Shijing) who could match the martial arts of Evil #3 Divine Croc. However, each of the 4 individual elders seemed to be on par with Evil #4 Yun Zhonghe, suggesting that there is a small gap between Evil #3 and Evil #4.

[HuangYushi]

... suggesting that there is a small gap between Evil #3 and Evil #4.

It's a fact:
Yue the Third -- Had better overall martial arts skills than Yun Zhonghe, but lost out on qinggong (Chapter 5).
Yun Zhonghe -- Knew that his martial arts skills were slightly beneath Yue the Third's, but could escape from the latter because he was way much stronger in qinggong (Chapter 5).

[Whsie]

Realistically speaking, Zhu Zhiliu could be around Duan Zhengming/Duan Yanqing's level. The first and most important thing is that we have to consider the Zhu Zhiliu in the ROCH novel. Next, to fully modify the art of Solitary Yang Finger, Zhu has to at least first have the idea of the art before you can make the changes to fit your style. From this point, Zhu Zhiliu technically speaking is above Duan Zhengchun in mastery of the Solitary Yang Finger. An actual evidence also includes the fact that Zhu Zhiliu doesn't need to charge up his Solitary Yang Finger energy suggesting a decent level of mastery. When Duan Zhengchun uses Solitary Yang Finger, you might notice that he needs to charge up before firing(at the same time, you might notice that MRB in the 3rd edition mentioned this as a fault of the art for lower level users). When he was fighting Duan Yanqing, Zhengchun realized Yanqing was much superior to him in the finger technique because Yanqing could immediately use the art without first charging up like he needs to. Similiarly, Zhu Zhiliu doesn't need to charge up his energy before firing away.

[PJ]

An actual evidence also includes the fact that Zhu Zhiliu doesn't need to charge up his Solitary Yang Finger energy suggesting a decent level of mastery. When Duan Zhengchun uses Solitary Yang Finger, you might notice that he needs to charge up before firing(at the same time, you might notice that MRB in the 3rd edition mentioned this as a fault of the art for lower level users). When he was fighting Duan Yanqing, Zhengchun realized Yanqing was much superior to him in the finger technique because Yanqing could immediately use the art without first charging up like he needs to. Similiarly, Zhu Zhiliu doesn't need to charge up his energy before firing away.

That is a good point. I'm sure that Zhu Ziliu is superior to Duan Zhengchun; however the gap between Zhengchun and Yanqing is quite immense; being superior to Zhengchun doesn't automatically put Zhu Ziliu on the same level as Duan Yanqing et al.

[Whsie]

I agree that there is quite a difference between Duan Zhengchun and Duan Yanqing, but it is not so immense to the point that Duan Zhengchun would immediately get killed in 3 stances. Obviously as we see in the novel, Zhengchun could hold his own against Yanqing. Based on this fact(also establishing the fact that Zhu is >Zhengchun), I could see that Zhu Zhiliu could be around Duan Yanqing. Zhu Zhiliu might still be a bit inferior, but he should at least be somewhere around the neighborhood near Duan Yanqing.

[PJ]

I agree that there is quite a difference between Duan Zhengchun and Duan Yanqing, but it is not so immense to the point that Duan Zhengchun would immediately get killed in 3 stances. Obviously as we see in the novel, Zhengchun could hold his own against Yanqing.

Duan Yanqing took so long to defeat Duan Zhengchun because he was very proud and did not want to take any advantage of Zhengchun's shortcomings. He was being "Shou Xia Liu Qing" and held back quite a bit. Later, Murong Fu was able to overcome the combined forces of Duan Zhengchun and Evil #3 in a short time, and Murong Fu was no match for Yanqing, so it only makes sense that in a real fair combat, Duan Yanqing should beat Duan Zhengchun in a few short stances.

[kyss of the sword]

MRF took advantage of Duan Zhengchun anxiety for duan yu. he caught him off guard.

[Ian Liew]

That's what I thought. How did the Four Dali Royal Guardsmen compare to Mo Yung F'uk's four henchmen (Jin Yong seemed to be in a rut with gangs of four in DGSD)? How did those henchmen compare to the Evils (except for Deun Yin Hing, who was obviously much more powerful)?

There is another gang of four in DGSD - the four flower swords from the Sacred Vulture Palace. My guess would be that they were the weakest of the four sets of four.

[PJ]

MRF took advantage of Duan Zhengchun anxiety for duan yu. he caught him off guard.

That's hardly "off guard."