Differences among Bak Ming Sun Gung, Fa Gung Dai Fat, and Kup Sing Dai Fat

[Ken Cheng]

What were the essential differences among the Bak Ming Sun Gung (as practiced by Deun Yu), the Fa Gung Dai Fat (as practiced by Ding Chun Chou), and the Kup Sing Dai Fat (as seen in SOD/SPW)?

[LuNaR]

isnt 1 of those suppose to be on the good side while 1 is the bad side?

[augster123]

i still dont really understand how energy dissipating technique (fa gung dai fat) works.

[PJ]

The basic underlining working mechanism of Huagong Dafa is:

Huagong Dafa works by the practioner injecting poison into the opponent's body, eradicating the opponent's kung fu and/or rendering him powerless. The difference between this and Beiming is that 1) Beiming does not use poison, 2) Beiming lets you such the opponent's energy permanently into your own, while Huagong does not let the opponent's energy become your own.

So, it uses poison to weaken your opponent.

[augster123]

The basic underlining working mechanism of Huagong Dafa is:

Huagong Dafa works by the practioner injecting poison into the opponent's body, eradicating the opponent's kung fu and/or rendering him powerless. The difference between this and Beiming is that 1) Beiming does not use poison, 2) Beiming lets you such the opponent's energy permanently into your own, while Huagong does not let the opponent's energy become your own.

So, it uses poison to weaken your opponent.

in that case, technically, energy dissipating technique can be a SDA/LDA then?

[Snafu3721]

IIRC, Bei Ming Shen Gong is the original form of all the energy absorbing arts mentioned. It allows it's practioner to fully absorb any type of internal energy for personal use. It has the ability to harmonize different types of chi and convert it into raw internal power for the user.

Hua Gong Da Fa, as its name implies, dissipates internal energy from an opponent. It does not allow the practioner to absorb the energy that is dissipated. This art is a derivative of Bei Ming that is practiced (and maybe invented??) by DCQ.

Xi Xing Da Fa is also a derivative of Bei Ming Shen Gong that was created after DGSD. It allows it's user to absorb an opponent's internal energy, but was a flawed technique until RWX discovered a remedy. The pre-RWX version of XXDF could not harmonize all the streams of internal energies absorbed from opponents; causing internal chi conflicts within the practioner. It was demonstrated that the negative aspects of the flawed XXDF can be neutralized by the Yi Jing Ging.

[PJ]

in that case, technically, energy dissipating technique can be a SDA/LDA then?

Yes, if we take Energy-Dissipating Technique to the next level, I imagine it could possibly inject poison via LDA, a la the Life-Death Talisman (Sheng Si Fu).

Ding Chunqiu only demonstrated the ability to use EDT via physical contact. This made him seem more sneaky, since he constantly tricked people into touching him.

However These kind of toxic skills don't work very well against someone with higher internal energy, as Zhang Sanfeng explained with Xuanming Divine Palms, which cannot be used against a better opponent due to a "poison backfiring" effect.

[PJ]

IIRC, Bei Ming Shen Gong is the original form of all the energy absorbing arts mentioned. It allows it's practioner to fully absorb any type of internal energy for personal use. It has the ability to harmonize different types of chi and convert it into raw internal power for the user.

Hua Gong Da Fa, as its name implies, dissipates internal energy from an opponent. It does not allow the practioner to absorb the energy that is dissipated. This art is a derivative of Bei Ming that is practiced (and maybe invented??) by DCQ.

Actually, Huagong Dafa should be the inferior precedessor of Beiming Shengong. Here is what Han Solo wrote in the past:


Unless JY really changed things really around in the third ed, HGDF is the predecessor of BMSG, which is the perfected form.

Again, From Moins:
"It concludes the section with: "When others practice inner strength, the path that they take is from Cloudy Gate to Less Merchant. But our Carefree Sect's kungfu is from Less Merchant to Cloudy Gate, if thumb comes in contact with others, then their inner force will gush into my body and be stored at Cloudy Gate as well as other pressure points. But if the opponent's inner force is stronger than mine, then the water of the sea will empty into the rivers, leading to life threatening dangers; you have been fore warned. The other skills of our sect, has not been developed fully and are only able to weaken the opponent's inner force but cannot make it available for own use. It is as if stealing a fortune yet misplacing it, such a waste of something so precious."

I take that to mean that BMSG was the development from HGDF.

Han Solo


The underlined part should be referring to Huagong Dafa.

[Snafu3721]

Actually, Huagong Dafa should be the inferior precedessor of Beiming Shengong. Here is what Han Solo wrote in the past:


Unless JY really changed things really around in the third ed, HGDF is the predecessor of BMSG, which is the perfected form.

Again, From Moins:
"It concludes the section with: "When others practice inner strength, the path that they take is from Cloudy Gate to Less Merchant. But our Carefree Sect's kungfu is from Less Merchant to Cloudy Gate, if thumb comes in contact with others, then their inner force will gush into my body and be stored at Cloudy Gate as well as other pressure points. But if the opponent's inner force is stronger than mine, then the water of the sea will empty into the rivers, leading to life threatening dangers; you have been fore warned. The other skills of our sect, has not been developed fully and are only able to weaken the opponent's inner force but cannot make it available for own use. It is as if stealing a fortune yet misplacing it, such a waste of something so precious."

I take that to mean that BMSG was the development from HGDF.

Han Solo


The underlined part should be referring to Huagong Dafa.

I just re-read that passage in the book as well. It is very probable that the passage does refer to HGDF. I stand corrected!

[Snafu3721]

Yes, if we take Energy-Dissipating Technique to the next level, I imagine it could possibly inject poison via LDA, a la the Life-Death Talisman (Sheng Si Fu).

Ding Chunqiu only demonstrated the ability to use EDT via physical contact. This made him seem more sneaky, since he constantly tricked people into touching him.

However These kind of toxic skills don't work very well against someone with higher internal energy, as Zhang Sanfeng explained with Xuanming Divine Palms, which cannot be used against a better opponent due to a "poison backfiring" effect.

It seems you shouldn't use any techniques involving internal energy against an opponent with a bigger resevoir. Not just these energy absorbing/dissapating ones.

[PJ]

It seems you shouldn't use any techniques involving internal energy against an opponent with a bigger resevoir. Not just these energy absorbing/dissapating ones.

I think it's safer to use more orthodox skills to compete with a superior opponent. For example, check out this line from Smiling Proud Wanderer:

向问天却想：“少林派武功享名千载，果然非同小可。方证大师这‘千手如来掌’掌法虽繁，功力不散，那真是千 难万难。倘若教我遇上了，只好跟他硬拚内力，掌法是比他不过的了。”

Xiang Wentian thought that he could compete internal energy with Abbot Fangzheng, even though he was weaker than the abbot. Even thought Xiang would probably lose eventually, it would not result in a gruesome death a la misusing Xuanming Divine Palm or maybe Energy Dissipating Technique.

[Ken Cheng]

Was SOD/SPW's Kup Sing Dai Fat reverse-engineered from the remnants of Bak Ming Sun Gung (how did that reemerge again after having been missing throughout the era of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY?)? How was it different from its parent martial art?

[PJ]

The energy-absorption skills first explicitly surfaced in DGSD. When SPW came about, which is the major novel immediately following DGSD, Jin Yong continued to incorporate this phenemenon into the story. It didn't appear in the Trilogy because Jin Yong hadn't thought of it when he wrote those novels.

In many ways, SPW has more in common with DGSD than the Trilogy has in common with DGSD.

[Ken Cheng]

The energy-absorption skills first explicitly surfaced in DGSD. When SPW came about, which is the major novel immediately following DGSD, Jin Yong continued to incorporate this phenemenon into the story. It didn't appear in the Trilogy because Jin Yong hadn't thought of it when he wrote those novels.

In many ways, SPW has more in common with DGSD than the Trilogy has in common with DGSD.

SPW was actually published a good four years after DGSD. That's surprising. I always thought that DGSD was the second-to-last Jin Yong novel to be written/published. DGSD was actually written earlier in Jin Yong's career than I had always thought it was.

That probably has something to do with my dad saying that SPW is his favorite Jin Yong novel of all time, but that he doesn't remember DGSD that well because it was supposedly published years after my dad stopped reading wuxia.

Which is kind of odd, really.

[PJ]

DGSD was followed by Ode to Gallantry and A Deadly Secret, 2 relatively minor works. SPW is the first major work after DGSD. The Long "gap" could have something to do with the drastic philosophical changes represented by SPW as a piece of work. I've heard many praises for SPW due to its experimental environment. People who like Gu Long's abstract style identify with a similar mystique surrounding SPW. Jin Yong bent the rules of his previous establishments for the SPW universe, and that's why it is particularly hard to compare the martial arts level of SPW to that of other eras, because they operate quite differently. For example In DGSD, Jin Yong explicitly illustrated his preference to internal power, but the opposite became true in SPW. One thing is for sure, SPW is a unique work in Jin Yong's portfolio, and one should embrace its diversion from the norm.

[Ken Cheng]

People who like Gu Long's abstract style identify with a similar mystique surrounding SPW.

It's funny: I've always characterized SPW as Jin Yong's attempt to write a Gu Long novel.

[HuangYushi]

Actually, Huagong Dafa should be the inferior precedessor of Beiming Shengong. Here is what Han Solo wrote in the past:

Unless JY really changed things really around in the third ed, HGDF is the predecessor of BMSG, which is the perfected form.

Again, From Moins:
"<snip> The other skills of our sect, has not been developed fully and are only able to weaken the opponent's inner force but cannot make it available for own use. <snip>"

I take that to mean that BMSG was the development from HGDF.

Han Solo

The underlined part should be referring to Huagong Dafa.

Some clarifications about the "underlined part".

The actual text from both the 2nd and 3rd editions is:

本派旁支 [1]，未窥要道 [2]，惟能消敌内力 [3]，不能引而为我用 (Chapter 2).

[1] 本派旁支 = Off-shoots of our School.
[2] 未窥要道 = literally, "have not seen (come upon) the important principles (that we use)"; paraphrased, "have not shown any of our insight".
[3] 惟能消敌内力 = 消 means "vanish, die out; melt away", or specifically for this context, "disperse". It does not mean "weaken".

The "underlined part" should read: Similar methods employed by off-shoots of our School have not shown any of our insight, so these can only disperse the internal strength of the practitioner's opponents instead of absorbing it for the practitioner's own use.

Therefore, imho, Huagong Dafa is not a predecessor of Beiming Shengong. Instead, it is a lesser sibling that shows some similarity in form, without the full bells and whistles of its more insightful (and better-developed) relative. That Huagong Dafa is a lesser sibling of Beiming Shengong also makes sense in view of the relationships (in all senses of the word) that Ding Chunqiu had with the Xiaoyao School and with Li Qiushui/Wuyazi.

HYS

[PJ]

So HuangYushi, do you think that Huagong Dafa was invented AFTER Beimong Shengong?

Is there any evidence that Huagong Dafa is or is not a Xiaoyao Pai creation? If not, maybe it belonged to one of the off-shoots.

[HuangYushi]

So HuangYushi, do you think that Huagong Dafa was invented AFTER Beimong Shengong?
Is there any evidence that Huagong Dafa is or is not a Xiaoyao Pai creation? If not, maybe it belonged to one of the off-shoots.

This is how I see it:

Ding Chunqiu was a Xiaoyao School disciple at one point in his life, and had contact with Wuyazi and Li Qiushui. Li Qiushui obviously had knowledge of the Beiming Shengong (even if it's only non-practising knowledge) because she was the one who put the Beiming scroll into the cushion at the foot of the statue.

Due to his contact with Wuyazi and Li Qiushui, it would not have been surprising if Ding Chunqiu had also had some exposure to and knowledge about the underlying principles of the Beiming Shengong (for example, that an opponent's internal energy can be drawn away from the opponent's body).

However, at some point, Ding Chunqiu left the Xiaoyao School. If he had any knowledge about the underlying principles of the Beiming Shengong, he would have obviously taken it with him. And since the ability to draw away an opponent's internal energy from his body was a useful skill in battle, it would not have been surprising (again) for Ding to use his existing knowledge to come up with something workable, hence the Huagong Dafa.

This, however, does not mean that the Beiming Shengong was fully developed when Ding Chunqiu left the Xiaoyao School. The Beiming Shengong (and even the Huagong Dafa, if you think about it) *could* have been semi-developed when Ding Chunqiu and the Xiaoyao School/Li Qiushui parted ways, and become fully-developed later down the road.

Therefore, my answer to your first question -- do you think that Huagong Dafa was invented AFTER Beimong Shengong -- is "I don't know; it could be BEFORE or AFTER, since the development of these two skills appeared to have taken off in two different directions."

As for your 2nd question, I think the text of the Beiming scroll puts it quite clearly: "Similar methods employed by off-shoots of our School have not shown any of our insight, so these can only disperse the internal strength of the practitioner's opponents instead of absorbing it for the practitioner's own use." "Similar methods" alludes to (among others, if any) the Huagong Dafa, while "off-shoots of our School" alludes to (among others, if any) Ding Chunqiu's Xingxiu School.

HYS

[Ren Wo Xing]

One major difference was that Xixing Dafa was able to absorb energy through mediums such as swords, whereas both Beiming and Huagong seemed to require physical contact. So in that sense, Xixing Dafa was 'superior'.