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Thread: Speed revisited: how can slow raw power overcome fast speed?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Speed revisited: how can slow raw power overcome fast speed?

    As you may recall, There are at least 2 instances in Jin Yong universe where slow raw power was said to surely be able to overcome fast speed.

    Case 1: ROCH
    金轮法王倘若以轮上威猛之力与她对攻,小龙女便即抵挡不住

    Had the Golden Wheel Monk dealt with her using his fierce power, Xiaolongnu would not have been able to withstand...

    Case 2: ADS

    其实血刀老祖只须刀招放慢,跟他拆上十余招,汪啸风非命丧血刀之下不可,幸好血刀老祖一时没想 到

    If the Lord of Blood Sabre would slow down his moves, his opponent would be dead within several exchanges. However he did not think to fight this way...


    In both cases, a much much more powerful villain was competing speed with an opponent who was well-versed in speed. The powerful villains could not win this way, but it was said that if they would just slow down, they could take out their opponent quickly.

    Now, I want to know, is this really logical? How does it work?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I think the only way it can work is if the power is so overwhelming that it becomes "area effect impact" (kind of like an explosion). Since the impact is omnidirectional, it won't miss the target no matter which way it vectors unless the speed of the target is such that it can outrun the shockwave.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I think the only way it can work is if the power is so overwhelming that it becomes "area effect impact" (kind of like an explosion). Since the impact is omnidirectional, it won't miss the target no matter which way it vectors unless the speed of the target is such that it can outrun the shockwave.
    And even then, the propagation speed of the 'power wave' has to be faster than the opponents blade. Ominidirectional 'blasting' is useless if the shockwave doesn't have time to reach the opponent before his blade slices your wrist.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    To me, this concept almost sounds as ill-conceived as Dugu 9 Swords aka "I'm half dead but as long as I extend my arm, I win"
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Actually, the principle seems similar to that of the Xuan Tie sword.

    In trying to compete in speed/technique, they lose; when others move faster than them, as they try to match the techniques, the techniques change too quickly for them to handle them and use their power; in short, they are fighting reactively.

    Perhaps if instead of trying to match speed and techniques, they simply attack and force the opponent to defend, its playing to their strength as opposed to their weakness.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Perhaps if instead of trying to match speed and techniques, they simply attack and force the opponent to defend, its playing to their strength as opposed to their weakness.
    But how can they force the opponent to defend when the opponent moves 2 to 3 times faster? I just have trouble seeing how that could possibly work.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    What you have to keep in mind about Wuxia is that even the greatest speed isn't relativistic like comic book superheroes.


    Ignoring "Mr. Plot Point" Sweeper Monk who can do anything so long as the story needs it to move along, there's only one, the very fastest person, who displayed a feat where the body moved quicker than a weapon (includes limbs): DFBB.

    For obvious reasons, if you attain such an unreasonable level in one aspect, you'd gain a huge advantage. That level of speed is akin to (literally) explosive power or (literally) physics-defying technique. In other words, it doesn't count.



    No one else, not DY, not XLN, displayed this kind of speed. DY was agile but it was really the (Book of Changes-style) difficult to follow patterns that make him nigh unhittable. XLN was also fast and agile, but even then, 2nd tiered (at best) fighters can definitely move their weapons quick enough that even XLN's twin swords can barely break through.

    In the light of this, because any attack must originate from the center, that is the body, unless your opponent is already inside close combat range, there is room for power to defeat speed (via technique) by taking a shorter route or striking first. If you started an attack first (9 Yin), you negate your opponent's speed. If your attack requires a shorter distance to attain its power (9 Yang), you also negate your opponent's speed.

    Furthermore, high speeds and in turn, charging attacks, narrow the field of view, allowing for a number of counters (including impaling yourself since speed doesn't actually increase your range)

    In the end, speed is an advantage, but not necessarily an overpowering one. As long as you remain in the realm of reasonable (for wuxia), it's still the combination of Power, Technique and Speed that determines your total potential. Well, there's also Miscellaneous Factors like Build, Size, Weapon, etc. =P
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 07-18-07 at 12:41 AM.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    What you have to keep in mind about Wuxia is that even the greatest speed isn't relativistic like comic book superheroes.
    When you can blind 15 people in a flash, connect with the sixth kick before Newton's laws move the target backwards, strike 30-40 times per second and move so fast bystanders cannot see you, its relativistic enough for melee combat.

    With those kind of speeds, you think moving slowly (say, like a normal human) but with great power is enough to counter? It'll be like an Elephant trying to use its superior momentum to fight an incoming bullet from a rifleman. The elephant has over 100 times the power (in terms of momentum or kinetic energy) compared to a small bullet, but it wont hit the rifleman first.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    That only occurs against opponents of (much) lower ability. With very few exceptions does anyone attain the speed to perform such feats. As for LHC's case, we obviously blame DG9J (which qualifies for physics-ignoring in many situations).

    Also, it doesn't take that much (in the most loosest sense) to go fast enough such that bystanders see a blur. I mean, GJ isn't exactly known for speed and could do that. And it's XLN's sword techniques that couldn't be seen... something I explicitly based my argument on: the attack is far faster than the body can go. As long as the opponent isn't already close up, there's room for other methods.

    Even GLFW wasn't so much slower that XLN could put 30 holes into him. GLFW may be dazzled, but he is still sufficiently quick that only 1-2 hits out of 50 got through as glancing hits. You might say that's because he only had to wave his weapon around to do that but that's the entire point.


    With those kind of speeds, you think moving slowly (say, like a normal human) but with great power is enough to counter? It'll be like an Elephant trying to use its superior momentum to fight an incoming bullet from a rifleman. The elephant has over 100 times the power (in terms of momentum or kinetic energy) compared to a small bullet, but it wont hit the rifleman first.
    Funny you should bring up that example. There's a reason why they made the Elephant Gun you know.

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    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    With those kind of speeds, you think moving slowly (say, like a normal human) but with great power is enough to counter? It'll be like an Elephant trying to use its superior momentum to fight an incoming bullet from a rifleman. The elephant has over 100 times the power (in terms of momentum or kinetic energy) compared to a small bullet, but it wont hit the rifleman first.
    that's why there's the bullet proof vest...which does work in some cases

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    When you can blind 15 people in a flash, connect with the sixth kick before Newton's laws move the target backwards, strike 30-40 times per second and move so fast bystanders cannot see you, its relativistic enough for melee combat.
    You have to think in terms of relative speed. This is more like someone with Speed 7 being able to defeat another with Speed 10 by using much more powerful strikes. Bystanders or real human beings like us aren't relevant to this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    But how can they force the opponent to defend when the opponent moves 2 to 3 times faster? I just have trouble seeing how that could possibly work.
    The opponent isn't that much faster. XLN certainly isn't 2-3 times faster than the GWM.

    Someone like XLN using speed to attack a slower but more powerful opponent like GWM must try to go around his defense and cannot attack straight (the fastest route). This is because she cannot blast through his defense. GWM on the other hand can do that to XLN's defense so it will be inefficient for him to yield to her movement and speed.

    Any Wing Chun practitioner here? I'm crap at explaining this but it's basically the main principle. Our main instructor is a big fat slow guy and I'm easily twice as fast as him, but if I take him head on using power (abandoning my advantage), I'm dead, and vice versa, if he tries to match my speed and turns (abandoning his advantage), he'll die from a heart attack before I have to lift a finger.
    Last edited by Candide; 07-18-07 at 03:40 AM.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    The opponent isn't that much faster. XLN certainly isn't 2-3 times faster than the GWM.

    Someone like XLN using speed to attack a slower but more powerful opponent like GWM must try to go around his defense and cannot attack straight (the fastest route). This is because she cannot blast through his defense. GWM on the other hand can do that to XLN's defense so it will be inefficient for him to yield to her movement and speed.

    Any Wing Chun practitioner here? I'm crap at explaining this but it's basically the main principle. Our main instructor is a big fat slow guy and I'm easily twice as fast as him, but if I take him head on using power (abandoning my advantage), I'm dead, and vice versa, if he tries to match my speed and turns (abandoning his advantage), he'll die from a heart attack before I have to lift a finger.
    Aye, fellow Wing Chun-ner here. Don't chase the hands, hit the centre.

    I was just going to post along these lines before I came across your post. The speed advantage is not likely to be more than 50%, more like 20-30%. Perhaps the Sunflower Scroll and Evil Resisting Sword offers 2-3 times speed boost - in any case the internal power with these arts is not inconsiderable either, viz. DFBB & his needles vs. 4 experts with swords.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    You have to think in terms of relative speed. This is more like someone with Speed 7 being able to defeat another with Speed 10 by using much more powerful strikes. Bystanders or real human beings like us aren't relevant to this discussion.
    .

    I think the novel's description of some feats seem to imply that the speed differential was indeed greater than 7 pts vs 10 pts for some cases.

    Some of the victims had not even begun to move and were struck. Look at stuff like Wei Yixiao, Jiu Mo Zhi hitting Xu Zhu 6 times before Xu Zhu (already at superspeed) could react, or Divine Croc hitting the water before he knew he was grabbed by Xiao Feng.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Yep, CFT, it's all about the centerline.

    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    I think the novel's description of some feats seem to imply that the speed differential was indeed greater than 7 pts vs 10 pts for some cases.

    Some of the victims had not even begun to move and were struck. Look at stuff like Wei Yixiao, Jiu Mo Zhi hitting Xu Zhu 6 times before Xu Zhu (already at superspeed) could react, or Divine Croc hitting the water before he knew he was grabbed by Xiao Feng.
    Not hard to imagine. One of the black belt guys in my school could hit me more than 6 times a second before I could react and he isn't twice as fast as me. That same guy could hit everyone in the school in sparring (except other black belts maybe) before they move. It's more to do with his positioning and superior techniques than his actual speed. Xu Zhu had insane speed from his vastly superior inner power but his techniques at that time still sucked compared to Jiumozhi's so he couldn't quite use that speed.

    If you're significantly more powerful than your opponent (e.g GWM v.s XLN), you simply don't have to move your body much to be a match for his/her speed. Unless the opponent is so fast that he/she could move behind you and balance/position him/herself well enough for the attack before you can turn around (that's suggesting a speed difference of at least 5 times or more to me), you can simply concentrate on the power and accuracy of your strikes. XLN is faster but I can't see her run rings around GWM. Same with the Lord of the Blood Saber v.s his opponents in that novel.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Also, keep in mind the difference between Attack Speed and Movement Speed. One is how fast you can strike, the other is how fast you can get within strike range. Attack Speed is naturally far higher than Movement Speed.

    Again, unless you're standing RIGHT BESIDE the person (practically backstabbing) Movement Speed is very significant. However, in JY canon, only one or two fighters demonstrates Movement Speed quicker than the Attack Speed of a high level fighter.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Any Wing Chun practitioner here? I'm crap at explaining this but it's basically the main principle. Our main instructor is a big fat slow guy and I'm easily twice as fast as him, but if I take him head on using power (abandoning my advantage), I'm dead, and vice versa, if he tries to match my speed and turns (abandoning his advantage), he'll die from a heart attack before I have to lift a finger.
    Alright, we'll investigate this real life Wing Chun example for now.

    If the big fat slow guy (who is xx more powerful than you) hits you (who is twice as fast as him), can you not use your speed advantage to dodge?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Good explanation, Chrono.

    PJ: I certainly can dodge, or run away, but I'm not fast enough to get through his defense, attack him and get away safely. If I do try to fight him, that's how his more powerful centerline and strikes can subdue my speed advantage. To use Chrono's explanation, while his Movement Speed is a lot slower than mine, his Attack Speed isn't, so going up against him even with the speed advantage is always gonna be a big risk. Plus since he has to move a lot less, he will use less energy and vice versa, so if I keep dodging and use my speed, I'll run out of steam faster.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    that's why there's the bullet proof vest...which does work in some cases

    it doesn't work if you aim for the head. . .
    [ 空蕩的街景 想找個人放感情 做這種決定 是寂寞與我為鄰...我們的愛情 像你路過的風景 一直在進行 腳步卻從來不會為我而停...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名...你說愛像雲 要自在飄浮才美麗 我終於相信 分手的理由有時候很動聽...給你的愛一直很安靜 來交換你偶爾給的關心 明明是三個人的電影 我卻始終不能有姓名... 一直很安靜 ]

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Thank you candy!!!!! I have, for the premier time, just imagined a scenario where raw power can overcome speed. You are my saviour.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Registered User JamesG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide View Post
    Good explanation, Chrono.

    PJ: I certainly can dodge, or run away, but I'm not fast enough to get through his defense, attack him and get away safely. If I do try to fight him, that's how his more powerful centerline and strikes can subdue my speed advantage. To use Chrono's explanation, while his Movement Speed is a lot slower than mine, his Attack Speed isn't, so going up against him even with the speed advantage is always gonna be a big risk. Plus since he has to move a lot less, he will use less energy and vice versa, so if I keep dodging and use my speed, I'll run out of steam faster.
    Humbling isn't it.

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