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Thread: Did the Tse Hiu Fung/Yin 13 duel engender as much excitement as the SMCS/YGS duel?

  1. #21
    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I'm saying that Gu Long is giving too much credit to LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan for being on the good side. A lot of people have been on the good side, but only LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan gets the special privilege of being called invincible precisely because he is on the good side. Gu Long crossed the line when he said 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    I'm fine with this:
      荆无命盯着他,过了很久,忽然叹息一声。
      叶开觉得很吃惊,他从未想到这个人居然也有叹息的时候。
      荆无命缓缓道:"我己有多年来曾见到李寻欢了,我一直都在找他。"他的声音突然提高,又道:"因为我还 想找他比一比,究竟是他的刀快,还是我的剑快!"叶开听着,只有听着。
      荆无命竞又叹息一声,道:"但现在我却已改变了主意,你可知道是为了什么?"叶开当然不知 道。
      荆无命道,"是因为你。"
      叶开又很意外:"因为我?"
      荆无命道:"看见了你,我才知道我是比不上李寻欢的。"他冷漠的声音竟似变得有些伤感,过了很久,才接 着道:"路小佳只懂得杀人,可是你…你刚才出手三次,却都是为了救人的命!"刀本是用来杀人的 。
      懂得用刀杀人并不困难,要懂得如何用刀救人,才是件困难的事。叶开想不到荆无命居然也懂得 这道理。

    And this:
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀了上官金虹,并不是因为他的武功,而是因为他的信心。"李寻欢一直相信正义必定 战胜邪恶,公道必定常在人间。
      所以他胜了。
      荆无命道:"他们交手时,只有我一个人是亲眼看见的,我看得出他的武功,实在不如上官金虹,我一直不懂 ,他怎么会战胜的。"他慢慢地接着道:"但现在我已了解,一件兵器的真正价值,并不在它的本身,而在于它做 的事。"叶开承认。

    But not this:
      荆无命道:"李寻欢能杀上官金虹,只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的,他做的事,上可无愧于天下,下则 无愧于人。"一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。
      荆无命道:"百晓生若也懂得这道理,他就该将李寻欢的刀列为天下第一。"叶开看着他,突然对这个难以了 解的人,生出种说不出的尊敬之意。无论谁能懂得这道理,都应该受到尊敬。

    This is OK too:
      荆无命也在凝视着他,缓缓道:"所以现在若有人再作兵器谱,就应该将你的刀列为天下第一,因为你刚才做 的事,是任何人都做不到的。所以你这柄刀的价值,也绝没有任何兵器能比得上!"一阵风吹过,荆无命的人已消 失在风里。

    Jin Wuming's logic was that because LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan and Ye Kai are on the good side, their weapons have the highest moral value (一件兵器的真正价值). Therefore, they should be ranked #1 --> I'm fine with his logic up to this point, but he crossed the line when he/Gu Long said that LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan can basically defeat EVERYBODY because he's on the good side.

    Besides, what if LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan were to face another opponent who is 为了公道和正义而战? Surely that is a possible scenario. Who will win then?
    I agree with PJ on this in that JWM was basing his abilities on his moral value, which is good will always triumph over evil which isn't always the case. Shangguan Jinhong was clearly stated by Jin Yong to have maritl arts abilities to be higher than Li XunHuan. It was becuase Shangguan Jinhong decided to test whether whether he was faster than LXH's dagger which got him a dagger in the throat. Even LXH admitted than Shangguan Jinhong could of prevented him from throwing his dagger and LXH doesn't throw his dagger unless his 100 percent sureit will hit his target
    Yo momma cat

  2. #22
    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    Yes, but in that book, there was a long Jin Wuming lecture on why LXH will prevail over everyone else because his heart of gold and dagger which saves lives can never lose. That hints that in Jin's mind, LXH was always invincible.
    Yes but you also forgot that in Sentimental Swords, Ruthless Sword LXH told Ah Fei that in 3 years time if he corrected the flows in his sword art he would be invincible. 20 years later in Bordertown Wander we see how deadly Ah Fei had become. He was clearly the best in that novel too bad he only made several short instances.
    Yo momma cat

  3. #23
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    So what GL was trying to say is that Li's already Godly martial arts just happened to be backed by this incredible conviction in his heart which gives an invincible combination.
    I know that's what he meant; I know that's what he was trying to say... but that's not what he ended up saying. What he ended up saying was misleading, and I am going to hold him responsible for being a RWOE: Reckless Writer Of Exaggeration. 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    Funnily enough, it's not even clear whether LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan can be considered 为了公道和正义而战. Here's what Athena wrote in the past:

    * In response to: [一個人為了公道和正義而戰, 就絕不會敗] 他的所謂為了公道和正義所戰, 我就不見得了。我絕對沒有懷疑他的出發點和人品, 但是讀完了全書。 我根本沒有看到他真正為公道和正義出戰。 雖然他也曾經救過不少人,但是其他的人物也是曾經救過不少人。 他也是給環境逼他無可奈何之下去迎戰上官金紅。 但是在這名單之上的人那個不是一等一的好人。 謝家三少爺,西門莊主也從沒殺過無辜的人。死在丁鵬刀下的人全部是死不足惜的。張真人更加是品格高尚的絕世 好人。王真人 一生奉獻了給他自己的理想, 為國為民。非常可嘉! 所以我是對小李飛刀有些保留。

    All this discussion reminds me that Gu Long's writing is less credible than Jin Yong's, in terms of consistency and coherence. Gu Long's writing is more emotionally appealing, so it's about what the reader can take away from it, but it falls short on consistency and coherence. I think this line 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败 makes a good general quote, worthy of being somebody's signature here. But it doesn't make much sense in the context of the story. Gu Long's novels are full of memorable quotes and imagery, I like that very much, but that's about the only thing he's good at.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-06-07 at 10:00 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by minutemanwayne View Post
    I agree with PJ on this in that JWM was basing his abilities on his moral value, which is good will always triumph over evil which isn't always the case. Shangguan Jinhong was clearly stated by Jin Yong to have maritl arts abilities to be higher than Li XunHuan. It was becuase Shangguan Jinhong decided to test whether whether he was faster than LXH's dagger which got him a dagger in the throat. Even LXH admitted than Shangguan Jinhong could of prevented him from throwing his dagger and LXH doesn't throw his dagger unless his 100 percent sureit will hit his target
    You're missing Gu Long's point about how the more powerful fighter doesn't always win. It's not just in this novel either. In GL's novels, there are often fighters that lose despite being more advanced in martial arts.

    With regards to who's most powerful 20 years later, it's clear from the dialogue that as powerful as Ah Fei has become, JWM and LXH are also at that level.
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I know that's what he meant; I know that's what he was trying to say... but that's not what he ended up saying. What he ended up saying was misleading, and I am going to hold him responsible for being a RWOE: Reckless Writer Of Exaggeration. 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败。

    Funnily enough, it's not even clear whether LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan can be considered 为了公道和正义而战. Here's what Athena wrote in the past:

    * In response to: [一個人為了公道和正義而戰, 就絕不會敗] 他的所謂為了公道和正義所戰, 我就不見得了。我絕對沒有懷疑他的出發點和人品, 但是讀完了全書。 我根本沒有看到他真正為公道和正義出戰。 雖然他也曾經救過不少人,但是其他的人物也是曾經救過不少人。 他也是給環境逼他無可奈何之下去迎戰上官金紅。 但是在這名單之上的人那個不是一等一的好人。 謝家三少爺,西門莊主也從沒殺過無辜的人。死在丁鵬刀下的人全部是死不足惜的。張真人更加是品格高尚的絕世 好人。王真人 一生奉獻了給他自己的理想, 為國為民。非常可嘉! 所以我是對小李飛刀有些保留。

    All this discussion reminds me that Gu Long's writing is less credible than Jin Yong's, in terms of consistency and coherence. Gu Long's writing is more emotionally appealing, so it's about what the reader can take away from it, but it falls short on consistency and coherence. I think this line 一个人若为了公道和正义而战,就绝不会败 makes a good general quote, worthy of being somebody's signature here. But it doesn't make much sense in the context of the story. Gu Long's novels are full of memorable quotes and imagery, I like that very much, but that's about the only thing he's good at.

    That was the weakest argument I've seen from Athena. She hardly used any evidence to support her point that LXH wasn't that great of a hero. Her strongest point was that the circumstances forced him to be heroic, which can be said of many JY's characters. Ding Pang shouldn't even be mentioned since everyone knows that his story was only partially written by GL.

    I've no problem if you're trying to argue that LXH wasn't that great of a hero, but that wasn't your original point, PJ. You've switched to a completely different argument. I might be wrong about this but it seems that you're mostly displeased about GL's writing because you can't break it down into logic such as "guy who can do LDA from 100 ft will destroy a guy who can only do LDA from 30ft". I like JY's precise descriptions but I don't fault GY for not using the same style because 1)it's more refreshing, 2)it's kinda silly to apply quantitative analysis to Wuxia when the authors themselves don't have strong grasps of physics.

  5. #25
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    Maybe Gu Long in this case was just blatantly breaking the fourth wall of writing by telling us straight up that no matter what, the good guys always win!

    If I remember correctly, I think Jing Wuming then goes on to proclaim that Ye Kai's dagger is the new #1 invincible weapon now, because he has inherited Li Xunhuan's heart.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

  6. #26
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    Maybe Gu Long in this case was just blatantly breaking the fourth wall of writing by telling us straight up that no matter what, the good guys always win!
    I like this theory! In addition, I have 2 more theories on why Gu Long wrote it this way:

    1) He was trying to hype up LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER, Gu Long's popular character by then.

    2) To make the book size fatter by inserting random sentences here and there. Probably 20% of Gu Long's writing is rambling useless deep thoughts.

    If I remember correctly, I think Jing Wuming then goes on to proclaim that Ye Kai's dagger is the new #1 invincible weapon now, because he has inherited Li Xunhuan's heart.
    I wonder if Jin Wuming would have said the same thing if somebody with 10% of Ye Kai's power inherited LITTLE LI's heart. All of the reasons that Jin Wuming applied to rank Ye Kai as #1 would still hold true about this ten-percenter guy (since none of them pertained to martial arts!). So theoretically, the ten-percenter guy should still be #1.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I wonder if Jin Wuming would have said the same thing if somebody with 10% of Ye Kai's power inherited LITTLE LI's heart. All of the reasons that Jin Wuming applied to rank Ye Kai as #1 would still hold true about this ten-percenter guy (since none of them pertained to martial arts!). So theoretically, the ten-percenter guy should still be #1.
    The thing is, weak fighters never really survive long in Gu Long novels. They die by the handfuls early on and throughout. Thusly, Jing Wuming would've probably sliced said ten-percenter's head off without conversation, and he would not have gotten the chance inherit the heart of a hero.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
    傅紅雪冷道,“現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?”

  8. #28
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post
    The thing is, weak fighters never really survive long in Gu Long novels. They die by the handfuls early on and throughout. Thusly, Jing Wuming would've probably sliced said ten-percenter's head off without conversation, and he would not have gotten the chance inherit the heart of a hero.
    Which inspired the following imagery-in-motion:

    Upon witnessing LITTLE LI's disciple (let's call him D) use daggers to save lives, Jing Wuming is extremely touched, thinking: "No matter how good my martial arts, I will never be a match for LITTLE LI or his disciple, b/c their intentions are better than mine." He then goes to deliver that speech to D, and both men gain great mutual respect for each other. For their goodbye, Jing Wuming gives D a friendly pat on the shoulder, to which D responds by letting out a mouthful of blood. Startled and furious, Jing Wuming says: "Wait a minute, you're not that strong in martial arts, you stupid ten-percenter!" Promptly chopping off D's head, Jing Wuming thinks: "What a waste of my saliva... he who doesn't meet the pre-requisite of being one of the best martial artists of the time has no space in this book."
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  9. #29
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    That was just an opinion I wrote during the first Survival games era (it was the only survival game I played), someone (I can't remember who) was promoting Li Xunhuan a lot. I just wrote that to counter the hype around Li Xunhuan. It's just my opinion.

    Because, I didn't care much for Xiao Li Fei Dao (the novel). Some people love it and some people don't. Everyone to his/her own.
    Last edited by Athena; 09-06-07 at 11:06 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  10. #30
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    That was just an opinion I wrote during the first Survival games era (it was the only survival game I played), someone (I can't remember who) was promoting Li Xunhuan a lot. I just wrote that to counter the hype around Li Xunhuan. It's just my opinion.
    .
    That would be ME!
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  11. #31
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Oh, okay. I forgot that it was you. Sorry.

    In essence, I agree with what PJ wrote about Li Xunhuan. I just don't like all this hype around him, in MY OPINION he is too overrated. There are plenty of Gu Long heroes who can represent everything good and fair in the world too. I just don't like the fact that Li is suddenly THE hero of Gu Long. A lot of this hype is Gu Long's "fault" in the first place.
    In fact, Shen Lang, Tie Zhongtang, Zhan Mengbai, Chu Liuxiang, Lu Xiaofeng, Bowie Fang, Zhan Bai, Ma Rulong, etc. were at least just as decent as Li Xunhuan.



    Besides, what if LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER Li Xunhuan were to face another opponent who is 为了公道和正义而战?
    In my opinion, it almost came to such a scenario. When Shaolin's abbot, abbot Xinhu, was about to confront Li on behalf of the entire Shaolin. My idiosyncracies on DQJKWQJ are abbot Xinhu was someone who should never fear that dagger and was certainly an expert that should have been ranked in the top 8 of the realm. I always thought that he was one of the most decent characters in the entire novel.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  12. #32
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    Oh, okay. I forgot that it was you. Sorry.

    In essence, I agree with what PJ wrote about Li Xunhuan. I just don't like all this hype around him, in MY OPINION he is too overrated. There are plenty of Gu Long heroes who can represent everything good and fair in the world too. I just don't like the fact that Li is suddenly THE hero of Gu Long. A lot of this hype is Gu Long's "fault" in the first place.
    In fact, Shen Lang, Tie Zhongtang, Zhan Mengbai, Chu Liuxiang, Lu Xiaofeng, Bowie Fang, Zhan Bai, Ma Rulong, etc. were at least just as decent as Li Xunhuan.

    .
    My personal pet theory on why Gu Long wanted to make Li his most hyped guy.

    Gu Long probably identified himself with Li the most out of the lot. After all, the rest of the heroes you mentioned were not melancolic alcoholics like Gu Lo... I mean Li Xunhuan.

    So in Gu Long's heart, Li was probably the 'Ideal' hero.
    Last edited by CC; 09-09-07 at 11:04 PM.
    Its BIxie Jianfa Gawdammit you guys!!!!

  13. #33
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    My personal pet theory on why Gu Long wanted to make Li his most hyped guy.

    Gu Long probably identified himself with Li the most out of the lot. After all, the rest of the heroes you mentioned were not melaconic alcoholics like Gu Lo... I mean Li Xunhuan.

    So in Gu Long's heart, Li was probably the 'Ideal' hero.
    Concur with CC.
    Read the latest chapters of Coiling Dragon at Wuxia World!

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    LXH is my favorite hero too, though I am not a melancholic alcoholic. He does have some sort of universal appeal that other just as perfect/noble/kind etc characters don't have for some reason.

  15. #35
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    LXH is my favorite hero too, though I am not a melancholic alcoholic. He does have some sort of universal appeal that other just as perfect/noble/kind etc characters don't have for some reason.
    I wouldn't quite say "universal" appeal; Candide, for starters, hates the character.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    I wouldn't quite say "universal" appeal; Candide, for starters, hates the character.
    Hehe, as do I. Well, just on some particular character traits and decisions he made at least.

  17. #37
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC View Post
    My personal pet theory on why Gu Long wanted to make Li his most hyped guy.

    Gu Long probably identified himself with Li the most out of the lot. After all, the rest of the heroes you mentioned were not melaconic alcoholics like Gu Lo... I mean Li Xunhuan.

    So in Gu Long's heart, Li was probably the 'Ideal' hero.
    That may be true. LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER does seem to have a striking resemblance to Gu Long's real life: the drinking and the romantic complications.

    But, that just further shows what an arrogant snob Gu Long is. Consider that Jin Yong's most identified hero is Zhang Wuji, and we know that Jin Yong made Zhang Wuji full of human flaws, looking like the most incapable hero of all. Judging by the manners for projecting their identity through characters, Jin Yong seems to be more humble, whereas Gu Long is more self-centered.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-09-07 at 01:30 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    A lot of people would choose to be as flawed as Zhang Wuji. He was a genius with both academics and martial arts. He was the #1 active martial artist, best doctor, and leader of the Ming cult. Also, all the beautiful women were crazy about him. His only obvious flaw was being too kind-hearted, which really could be seen as a strength by many people.

    Seriously, it's pretty hard to argue that GL is more arrogant than JY if Jy identifies with a guy like ZWJ while GL indentifies himself with LXH.

  19. #39
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Seriously, it's pretty hard to argue that GL is more arrogant than JY if Jy identifies with a guy like ZWJ while GL indentifies himself with LXH.
    Gu Long keeps saying in subsequent stories that LITTLE LI FLYING DAGGER is invincible. If LLFD is to identify Gu Long, then that's the same as Gu Long saying himself is #1.

    While, Jin Yong never made such hype about Zhang Wuji. In fact Zhang Wuji is very understated when it came to martial arts.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    ZWJ was one of the most powerful main characters ever. All the his losses were due to him being too merciful and not to his having inferior ability. JY also made it a point to show that ZWJ learned and mastered every martial arts at ridiculous rates. JY basically had to rely on huge leaps of logic to give ZWJ any challenges because he made him too powerful even before the midpoint of the story.

    That fight against the Persians doesn't even make sense at all because JY kept telling the reader that ZWJ's much more powerful. "Weirdness" shouldn't be able to overcome such a large power deficit. Otherwise, a fighter might as well the learn the less powerful but weird arts so that he can kill a powerful opponent in the first fight.

    ZWJ's humility shouldn't be confused with JY's humility. If JY's intention was to create someone in his image who was a flawed human being, he did a really poor job, IMO.

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