what crazy thing you would do for love?

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ken, you're not consciously into that, but subconsciously you are. That's why you can't let go. That's why you keep making posts here whining about the same crap. What are you looking for then, if not validation & attention to keep wallowing in your misery? It's certainly not advices because you've got plenty of good ones you can follow.

This is the kind of clingyness & obsessive personality that scares the living sh!t out of women. If you're wondering why those chicks never liked you more, it's mainly because of that.

Geez fellas, stop sugarcoating failures. A man takes it on the chin, admits that he fvcks up and moves on.

roger, offering commitment and devotion up front before any dating and relationship even have a chance to happen is called CREEPY. Please don't encourage him again. THAT is the primary reason of his failing. Make the girl work for his commitment & devotion (and vice versa), not offering it for free from the start like it's some promo candy.

Just saw these posts, and they are an excellent example of why I love ya (in a bromance type way), despite how annoying you can be with the machismo at times. You're often the only one who tells the plain, unvarnished damned truth, without any overly sentimental bullsith. These few lines are worth more than the past 20 damn pages. In a phrase, 直爽! 顶!

[Ren Wo Xing]

Anyhow, one final post on this Ken stuff, and I'm done for good. Think of it as a last gesture from me to the Ken whom I respected and liked for nearly half a decade. This post may sound harsh. It is nothing but the truth, as bluntly and as directly as I can tell it, in the probably forlorn hope that Ken will actually pay attention. And I will bet money that most people who read it will secretly agree with me in the most part, regardless of what they might say.

Candide’s tendency towards machismo does tend to sometimes overshadow the very good points he makes; in this thread, he and roger got into an argument when he, in essence, told Ken to ‘man the hell up’. Let me clarify what I believe Candide really meant to say. What he really meant to say was not ‘man the hell up’, but rather, ‘grow the hell up’. And I agree. With utmost respect and no malice at all, Ken, you need to grow up.

You keep talking about being ‘tormented by this for twenty years’ and being ‘in hell’ because of these two ‘hurricanes’. Let’s break down exactly what these two events are, stripped of all of the melodramatic overtones which you attach them to.

A) When you were a teenager, you really liked a girl and tried hard to get her, but she didn’t like you back.
B) A year or so ago, you really liked another girl, and the two of you casually dated for a few months before she broke it off.

Those are your big ‘crises’, your big ‘hurricanes’. Only a teenager would possibly think of them in such a melodramatic way as ‘traumatic events’ that simply can’t be gotten over. Someone (I don’t remember who) once replied, after reading your posts on what happened, that they were ‘nothing’. You exploded, telling them ‘not to tell you it was nothing’, that it ‘really hurt’, etc. You know what though? Those two events in and of themselves WERE nothing, and the fact that you think otherwise and attach so much import and drama to them is the best proof that your emotional maturity when it comes to girls and relationships is still that of a teenager. I know you think those two events were great romantic tragedies. They aren’t. In and of themselves, they are tiny pissants of events.

I have a close female friend who devoted herself to her boyfriend for four years, heart and soul. He was her first ever boyfriend, and at first, he was good to her. She gave her first time to him, loved him, and genuinely hoped that they would get married one day. In return, he started looked down at her and began to treat her like crap. When she cooked for him, he would eat the food, then tell her what a shitty cook she was. He’d call her over to his place, have sex with her, then after he was finished, ignore her and go play computer games. He’d tell her how stupid she was, sometimes in front of others. He lied to her repeatedly. He did a lot more stuff which I won’t go into detail here, and eventually dumped her. The sad thing was, when he dumped her, she was actually devastated.

I have another friend, a close male friend who is a good man and hardworking, and who had a girlfriend who was very smart. They both came from rather poor backgrounds, and so that poor schmuck worked like a dog, scrimping and saving for four years to put her through college, only to have her dump him a few months after graduation. Later, he found out that the ***** had been cheating on him the entire time.

These two friends of mine have undergone experiences that are, quite frankly, in and of themselves infinitely more traumatic than yours. And you know what else? It was hard, but after a year or two, they MOVED ON. Because that’s what normal, well-adjusted adults do.

You did not experience romantic tragedies. You experienced a girl who wasn’t interested in you (and was honest about it when you asked), and a girl whom you dated for a few months, but who eventually decided you two weren’t a good fit and so split with you. These are not romantic tragedies. These are normal things in life which almost everyone goes through. The only difference is, you attach a degree of emotion and import to these events which is totally out of proportion to what they deserve, and the only reason you attach so much emotion and import to them is because you still have the melodramatic mind of a teenager when it comes to relationships, despite being in your thirty’s or forty’s. Or, to put it another way, YOU NEVER GREW UP in this aspect.

And that’s what you need to do to get past this and live a normal life. You need to GROW UP with regards to girls and relationships. The day you grow up and, as a mature adult, recognize that your ‘tragedies’ and the ‘hell’ you went through really weren’t anything in and of themselves and were mostly in your mind is the day when you’ll be able to live a normal life. And the day you grow up is the day where you actually might have a chance at getting your dream girl, because quite frankly, they way you are now, I would bet solid money that even if you did find another, it wouldn’t work out with her either.

I can’t say for sure what would help you grow up, but I do have one suggestion, which others have made before. GO OUT AND DATE. You have the mentality of a teenager when it comes to love and relationships, because quite frankly, you have the experience of a teenager when it comes to love and relationships; ie, virtually none. You’ve never really experienced a relationship, which most adults have; all you have experienced is infatuation with two girls who just weren’t into you. I think that it is very likely that some actual relationship experience might help you broaden your mindset and make you a bit more mature. And no. Despite what you might think, your ‘experience’ with ‘flirting’ with your female friends doesn’t count whatsoever.

But maybe I’m totally wrong. Maybe dating more won’t help you grow up at all. Heck, maybe you are already all grown up, and everything else I said up above was total crap. But you know what? You STILL should go out and date, if for no better reason than the fact that when you do find that girl you like, you’ll then have the necessary dating skills and relationship experience to get her. You often make a poker analogy, that you only will play in games where it is ‘all in’, and you won’t play smaller cap games. To continue that analogy, that is a beyond idiotic way to play poker, because it is at the small money games where you gain the experience and skills to win the big, ‘all in’ games. Someone who only plays ‘all in’ is someone who will end up bankrupt, again, and again, and again. The point of playing small money games isn’t to make money. It’s to get you the skills to make money. Similarly, the point of dating isn’t solely to find that ‘dream girl’ (that would be a perk). It can also be to get you the skills you’ll need to actually ‘get’ that dream girl once you meet her.

Anyhow, I’m done. I have very little hope that you’ll actually pay serious consideration to what I said, because of how firmly you seem to believe that you are a person stuck in the midst of a series of near-Shakespearean level romantic tragedies. Believe it or not, I do wish you the best; I wouldn't be up at 3 AM laying down some tough truths if I didn't. But quite frankly, if you keep going down the path you are taking, be it out of stubbornness or perversity, you’ll more than likely still be all alone when you are fifty, sixty, seventy, still be emo as a teenager about this crap, and wondering why your life sucked so much and why you are so lonely.

I hope you’ll grow up about this stuff, Ken. I’m out.

[Candide]

I think he was past that. He was in second base. Just check his earlier posts.

Mate, second base is only considered "dating" if you're still in junior high. When you're an adult going out with some broad for months (he said 10 months???!!!) and still only at "second base" (even the term itself is childish), you're truly & deeply in the Friend Zone. Hell, some chick might even allow you to nail her and yet you're still in the Friend Zone - that's called "pity sex". Get with the time, fellas.

Here's some more to scare you choir boys. Many women these days would date multiple guys at the same time, sleeping with one (usually, could be a few) while letting others take them out and buy them sh!t and allowing those naive fools to cop a feel once in a while to make them think there's something. Those women are often the last ones you suspect too.

[Candide]

Just saw these posts, and they are an excellent example of why I love ya (in a bromance type way), despite how annoying you can be with the machismo at times. You're often the only one who tells the plain, unvarnished damned truth, without any overly sentimental bullsith. These few lines are worth more than the past 20 damn pages. In a phrase, 直爽! 顶!

After that post, I'd so take you out for a drink and see "I love you man" at the movies. Cheers! But don't worry, if you get sh!t-faced, I'll be a gentleman.

On a side note, I do use "overly sentimental bullsith" but only when I need to break up with a woman, so I won't get stalked after the dumping.

Machismo? Well I've got you, the diplomat, to explain what I say, so I don't need to write a long-winded post now, do I? Besides, look around - everyone is overly feminine and politically correct in their approaches. Anything old-fashioned zero-bullsith is considered caveman-like.

Excellent post btw, and yes that's what I essentially said (but didn't want to say it in that way), with plenty of diplomatic sauce on top.

###

Oh btw roger, girly girls are good, girly men are bad. It's not a sexist thing, Mr Feminist. Your calling the two women who rejected some guy they're not attracted to "empty & fake" OTOH is a direct attack on their character for no sound reason at all.

[Ghaleon]

Mate, second base is only considered "dating" if you're still in junior high. When you're an adult going out with some broad for months (he said 10 months???!!!) and still only at "second base" (even the term itself is childish), you're truly & deeply in the Friend Zone. Hell, some chick might even allow you to nail her and yet you're still in the Friend Zone - that's called "pity sex". Get with the time, fellas.

Dude, not every girl is like that. Believe it or not, there are girls that are more reserved and willing to save it for marriage.... wow, imagine that eh?? Plus Ken's just not the type so the girls he look for probably aren't that type either. Yeah i understand what you mean by the Friend Zone but when you're holding hands, cuddling, and doing other physical intimate stuff thats non-sexually related you could still be called casually dating.

Bottom line, Ken is more reserved so he needs to find a reseved girl.

And what's up with your aggressive "machoism" style? Do you have something to prove everytime you post? First its your rant against asians being weak and all that bullsh*t then its your insulting posts to Ken. So what are you, mr. dating expert who scores dates left and right? lol.

You know, you can tone it down a notch. You can get your point across while still sounding diplomatic. You don't have to give everyone a lecture all the time.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Don't mind Candide, that's just the way he sounds/talks. Personally, I think it's because he was roleplaying a feminazi for a year or two and now feels the need to counterbalance it with tough man machismo

[Ghaleon]

Don't mind Candide, that's just the way he sounds/talks. Personally, I think it's because he was roleplaying a feminazi for a year or two and now feels the need to counterbalance it with tough man machismo

It's always hoes this, hoes that... to the point where it gets kind of irritating after a while.

[Candide]

Dude, not every girl is like that. Believe it or not, there are girls that are more reserved and willing to save it for marriage.... wow, imagine that eh?? Plus Ken's just not the type so the girls he look for probably aren't that type either. Yeah i understand what you mean by the Friend Zone but when you're holding hands, cuddling, and doing other physical intimate stuff thats non-sexually related you could still be called casually dating.

Bottom line, Ken is more reserved so he needs to find a reseved girl.

What did I tell you? Those girls are always the last ones you suspect!

The bold part: that means the guy is the chick's GIRLFRIEND.

And what's up with your aggressive "machoism" style? Do you have something to prove everytime you post? First its your rant against asians being weak and all that bullsh*t then its your insulting posts to Ken. So what are you, mr. dating expert who scores dates left and right? lol.

You know, you can tone it down a notch. You can get your point across while still sounding diplomatic. You don't have to give everyone a lecture all the time.

Now that's just feminist talk.

It's always hoes this, hoes that... to the point where it gets kind of irritating after a while.

Your word, not mine. I've never called women "hoes". It's usually chick, broad, or feminazi. Never used the S word either.

[Ghaleon]

What did I tell you? Those girls are always the last ones you suspect!

The bold part: that means the guy is the chick's GIRLFRIEND.

Now that's just feminist talk.

Not every relationship is about sex! Your idea of a relationship is picking up a girl at a club and then banging her few times. That's a sign of ... IMMATURITY. Seriously, have you ever been able to maintain a relationship?

[kidd]

Bottom line, Ken is more reserved so he needs to find a reseved girl.

The problem is, Ken is not attracted to reserved girls. Diana and Rayann (from his desciption) seem to be the social kind who likes to have fun.

I think the first thing Ken needs to do is to get out of the victim mode and stop blaming Diana. Stop saying Diana ruined him. It's hard, but, it's the first step to change.

I don't agree totally with what RXW said. Different people reacted to 'trauma' differently. Many adults who seem to have gotten over their childhood 'trauma' actually have just stored it away and it can be triggered by certain events in their lives. Rayann is the trigger to the Diana 'trauma'.

But something RWX said is very correct. If Ken didn't change and stay stagnant in his current emotional level in the love department, he will fail even if he gets a chance with Diana v3.0. It didn't work twice. So, maybe there is something that drive these 'Dianas' away.

Note: I put 'trauma' because the event might be nothing to many but it's a big deal and traumatic to that particular child.

[Candide]

Not every relationship is about sex!

Of course not. Those are the relationships you have with your friends and family.

Your idea of a relationship is picking up a girl at a club and then banging her few times. That's a sign of ... IMMATURITY.

No I've never said that's my idea of a relationship*, although you're being very judgemental there. Why is it immature for two consenting adults to enjoy a meaningful one night relationship?

You know what's immature? It's the guy who really wants sex but is too chicken sh!t to go for it, but instead, he hides behind the so-called "maturity", "oh I'm too traditional for that!", "I respect women too much" (WTF, she has sexual needs too!) and other bullsh!t just so that he doesn't have to confront his inner wuss. Why would a man willingly suppresses his natural desires - and regardless of feminist shaming, there is nothing wrong with a man's sexual desires - and gets himself blueballed in a so-called relationship? Answer: because he's immature and afraid of being his natural self.

* For me, a relationship doesn't happen until at least 3 months of non-stop banging. A one-nighter plus a morning after shag does not qualify as one.

Seriously, have you ever been able to maintain a relationship?

Yes. Please don't die of shock.

[Ghaleon]

The problem is, Ken is not attracted to reserved girls. Diana and Rayann (from his desciption) seem to be the social kind who likes to have fun.

You can still be outgoing and sociable, I just meant more reserved in 'other areas'. I think Ken's looking for a long term relationship and not plainly a physical one. He's not the type to date promiscuous girls.

[Trinie]

Anyhow, one final post on this Ken stuff, and I'm done for good. Think of it as a last gesture from me to the Ken whom I respected and liked for nearly half a decade. This post may sound harsh. It is nothing but the truth, as bluntly and as directly as I can tell it, in the probably forlorn hope that Ken will actually pay attention. And I will bet money that most people who read it will secretly agree with me in the most part, regardless of what they might say.

Candide’s tendency towards machismo does tend to sometimes overshadow the very good points he makes; in this thread, he and roger got into an argument when he, in essence, told Ken to ‘man the hell up’. Let me clarify what I believe Candide really meant to say. What he really meant to say was not ‘man the hell up’, but rather, ‘grow the hell up’. And I agree. With utmost respect and no malice at all, Ken, you need to grow up.

You keep talking about being ‘tormented by this for twenty years’ and being ‘in hell’ because of these two ‘hurricanes’. Let’s break down exactly what these two events are, stripped of all of the melodramatic overtones which you attach them to.

A) When you were a teenager, you really liked a girl and tried hard to get her, but she didn’t like you back.
B) A year or so ago, you really liked another girl, and the two of you casually dated for a few months before she broke it off.

Those are your big ‘crises’, your big ‘hurricanes’. Only a teenager would possibly think of them in such a melodramatic way as ‘traumatic events’ that simply can’t be gotten over. Someone (I don’t remember who) once replied, after reading your posts on what happened, that they were ‘nothing’. You exploded, telling them ‘not to tell you it was nothing’, that it ‘really hurt’, etc. You know what though? Those two events in and of themselves WERE nothing, and the fact that you think otherwise and attach so much import and drama to them is the best proof that your emotional maturity when it comes to girls and relationships is still that of a teenager. I know you think those two events were great romantic tragedies. They aren’t. In and of themselves, they are tiny pissants of events.

I have a close female friend who devoted herself to her boyfriend for four years, heart and soul. He was her first ever boyfriend, and at first, he was good to her. She gave her first time to him, loved him, and genuinely hoped that they would get married one day. In return, he started looked down at her and began to treat her like crap. When she cooked for him, he would eat the food, then tell her what a shitty cook she was. He’d call her over to his place, have sex with her, then after he was finished, ignore her and go play computer games. He’d tell her how stupid she was, sometimes in front of others. He lied to her repeatedly. He did a lot more stuff which I won’t go into detail here, and eventually dumped her. The sad thing was, when he dumped her, she was actually devastated.

I have another friend, a close male friend who is a good man and hardworking, and who had a girlfriend who was very smart. They both came from rather poor backgrounds, and so that poor schmuck worked like a dog, scrimping and saving for four years to put her through college, only to have her dump him a few months after graduation. Later, he found out that the ***** had been cheating on him the entire time.

These two friends of mine have undergone experiences that are, quite frankly, in and of themselves infinitely more traumatic than yours. And you know what else? It was hard, but after a year or two, they MOVED ON. Because that’s what normal, well-adjusted adults do.

You did not experience romantic tragedies. You experienced a girl who wasn’t interested in you (and was honest about it when you asked), and a girl whom you dated for a few months, but who eventually decided you two weren’t a good fit and so split with you. These are not romantic tragedies. These are normal things in life which almost everyone goes through. The only difference is, you attach a degree of emotion and import to these events which is totally out of proportion to what they deserve, and the only reason you attach so much emotion and import to them is because you still have the melodramatic mind of a teenager when it comes to relationships, despite being in your thirty’s or forty’s. Or, to put it another way, YOU NEVER GREW UP in this aspect.

And that’s what you need to do to get past this and live a normal life. You need to GROW UP with regards to girls and relationships. The day you grow up and, as a mature adult, recognize that your ‘tragedies’ and the ‘hell’ you went through really weren’t anything in and of themselves and were mostly in your mind is the day when you’ll be able to live a normal life. And the day you grow up is the day where you actually might have a chance at getting your dream girl, because quite frankly, they way you are now, I would bet solid money that even if you did find another, it wouldn’t work out with her either.

I can’t say for sure what would help you grow up, but I do have one suggestion, which others have made before. GO OUT AND DATE. You have the mentality of a teenager when it comes to love and relationships, because quite frankly, you have the experience of a teenager when it comes to love and relationships; ie, virtually none. You’ve never really experienced a relationship, which most adults have; all you have experienced is infatuation with two girls who just weren’t into you. I think that it is very likely that some actual relationship experience might help you broaden your mindset and make you a bit more mature. And no. Despite what you might think, your ‘experience’ with ‘flirting’ with your female friends doesn’t count whatsoever.

But maybe I’m totally wrong. Maybe dating more won’t help you grow up at all. Heck, maybe you are already all grown up, and everything else I said up above was total crap. But you know what? You STILL should go out and date, if for no better reason than the fact that when you do find that girl you like, you’ll then have the necessary dating skills and relationship experience to get her. You often make a poker analogy, that you only will play in games where it is ‘all in’, and you won’t play smaller cap games. To continue that analogy, that is a beyond idiotic way to play poker, because it is at the small money games where you gain the experience and skills to win the big, ‘all in’ games. Someone who only plays ‘all in’ is someone who will end up bankrupt, again, and again, and again. The point of playing small money games isn’t to make money. It’s to get you the skills to make money. Similarly, the point of dating isn’t solely to find that ‘dream girl’ (that would be a perk). It can also be to get you the skills you’ll need to actually ‘get’ that dream girl once you meet her.

Anyhow, I’m done. I have very little hope that you’ll actually pay serious consideration to what I said, because of how firmly you seem to believe that you are a person stuck in the midst of a series of near-Shakespearean level romantic tragedies. Believe it or not, I do wish you the best; I wouldn't be up at 3 AM laying down some tough truths if I didn't. But quite frankly, if you keep going down the path you are taking, be it out of stubbornness or perversity, you’ll more than likely still be all alone when you are fifty, sixty, seventy, still be emo as a teenager about this crap, and wondering why your life sucked so much and why you are so lonely.

I hope you’ll grow up about this stuff, Ken. I’m out.

VERY well said Ren Wo Xing. I think the "someone" that you were referring to was me. I remember that I did say that what he went through was nothing compared to other things that others went through and he got mad.He told me to not compare him to others. Isn't that what we have all been trying to tell him??? Sadly, he never listens and keeps on burying himself in self pity and I got sick of repeating myself so I stopped talking about this stuff and giving advice too. He needs to grow up and move on and I totally agree with the things that Candide said too. Even though what Candide said sounded kind of harsh, but I must say that it was really accurate...

I am also really sorry to hear about your close friends. I also gave so many examples of my family and friends as well that were also more tragic, but they managed to move on as well. However, Ken sadly once again told us not to compare.... If he chooses not to grow up about this then that is his choice, not ours...

[Ghaleon]

Of course not. Those are the relationships you have with your friends and family.

As i said, some people choose to not have sex until after marriage. It's their choice right? My Christian friends who are dating don't engage in any sexual activity at all.

You're giving me one end of the extreme so i'm giving you the other.

No I've never said that's my idea of a relationship*, although you're being very judgemental there. Why is it immature for two consenting adults to enjoy a meaningful one night relationship?

I have nothing against it. We all have hormones right?

But its not a surprise that all of us grow out of this phase. You don't give this kind of advice to someone like Ken who's looking for a long term relationship.

Most one night stands are just that, one night stands. Everybody's in it for the fun, theres nothing substantial. You don't get married from one night stands. You might like the girl, but most of the time it doesn't pan out for many reasons.

You know what's immature? It's the guy who really wants sex but is too chicken sh!t to go for it, but instead, he hides behind the so-called "maturity", "oh I'm too traditional for that!", "I respect women too much" (WTF, she has sexual needs too!) and other bullsh!t just so that he doesn't have to confront his inner wuss.

i meant maturity in the sense that you're going to clubs to look for relationships based on one night stands. That's immaturity. My friends that are now married met their significant other not through any of this clubbing BS but through friends or from work. Most people you meet at clubs are in it just for the fun. So if that's what you're looking for, sure great. But some people are looking for more than that especially when you get older.

Yes, girls have sexual needs too. and yes, sex is important in relationships. but you're not ****ing all the time. there's a whole lot more to relationships than just that. You guys have to be compatible for one. You're only looking at it from one angle.

BTW, you want to get laid? Go to Cancun. Almost everbody there goes just to have fun. Everybody is practically "single" there

* For me, a relationship doesn't happen until at least 3 months of non-stop banging. A one-nighter plus a morning after shag does not qualify as one.

... and you're trying to give advice to Ken?

Ken is looking for a long term relationship

[PJ]

I remember a number of us had told Ken that his issues were minimal. Ren Wo Xing made a good point that his suffering may have been tremendous, but the actual issue was really rather trivial.

[Candide]

Actually, fvck it, I can't be bothered explaining myself.

[jiang bao]

After that post, I'd so take you out for a drink and see "I love you man" at the movies. Cheers! But don't worry, if you get sh!t-faced, I'll be a gentleman.

Ooh, I smell love in the air. hahaha.

Anyhoo, it's the same thing. If Ken doesn't wanna change, nothing you guys say will change anything. I gave up many moons ago.

[remember_Cedric]

After reading the lots of posts by individual posters randomly, I've got this review:

we can't use one method to deal with everyone.

1) Some people deserves thrashing,
2) while some you just need to approach them with wisdom (with patience, lead him/her with encouragement and nice words) and,
3) some are just most willing to take the brutal honesty (likely to take it, live it and laugh over them then finally forget all about it and choose to move on with reality).

Ken appears to be the cat. 2). But, Kenny, you know people do run out of patience? lol

[Suet Seung]

After reading the lots of posts by individual posters randomly, I've got this review:

we can't use one method to deal with everyone.

1) Some people deserves thrashing,
2) while some you just need to approach them with wisdom (with patience, lead him/her with encouragement and nice words) and,
3) some are just most willing to take the brutal honesty (likely to take it, live it and laugh over them then finally forget all about it and choose to move on with reality).

Ken appears to be the cat. 2). But, Kenny, you know people do run out of patience? lol

The thing is Ken is like a cup that is already filled to the rim. All the wisdom, suggestion, advice, and etc from people poured in will just overflow and have no or very little effect in changing the way Ken thinks and feels. Unless Ken chooses to empty certain self-destructive thoughts and beliefs, his cup will remain full.

[milKBoi]

The thing is Ken is like a cup that is already filled to the rim. All the wisdom, suggestion, advice, and etc from people poured in will just overflow and have no or very little effect in changing the way Ken thinks and feels. Unless Ken chooses to empty certain self-destructive thoughts and beliefs, his cup will remain full.

Well then someone will need to help him tip the cup a little bit.