Lee Chum Foon's second and third dagger?

[Felix]

If you want to talk about unarmed combat, ask Guo to not use his sword also then. The fight would then be fairer.

Obviously one's skills would drop when they do not have their main weapon which they have practised on for the most of their life unless they have reached the highest pinnacle of martial arts.

Especially considering they both made the book of weapons based on their signature weapons.

[CC]

[


Which makes the conversation he had with Shangguan near the end of the book about 'the weapon is in the heart, not the hand' a bit of nonsense.

[ChronoReverse]

From what I remember from their duel, Guo unleashed a move that sent sword chi that encircled Li. Li stopped the surrounding sword chi by cutting off its source, he threw his dagger at Guo's sword, causing sparks and stopping the attack. The dagger returned to Li's hands, but its tip was broken, and in consequence any future throws would have its speed impeded.

I'm pretty sure he didn't throw the dagger, but actually blocked with the dagger.

[Ken Cheng]

[


Which makes the conversation he had with Shangguan near the end of the book about 'the weapon is in the heart, not the hand' a bit of nonsense.

It's OK if it's just a metaphor, but if it's meant and taken literally, then yeah, it is ridiculous.

[PJ]

[


Which makes the conversation he had with Shangguan near the end of the book about 'the weapon is in the heart, not the hand' a bit of nonsense.

No better or worse than the "if you're good then you never lose" crap.

[Wellesley]

I'm pretty sure he didn't throw the dagger, but actually blocked with the dagger.

Li Xun Huan could not retreat anymore, but his body suddenly shot up the tree.

Guo Song Yang flew into the sky, his sword followed like a streak of rainbow.

His body and sword are one.

The punishing sword stream pushed away all the leaves from the trees.

The scenery is just amazing!

Li Xun Huan flew past the sword stream, following the red leaves, floating down to the ground.

Guo Song Yang did not let up, back-flipped in mid-air, his sword suddenly turned into infinite streaks and shadows, coming towards Li Xun Huan.

No one can deny the incredible power of this attack.

Even meters away, Li Xun Huan could feel the pressure of the surrounding sword stream, no matter which way he dodges, he will still be hit.

Only to hear a ‘ding’ sound, sparks flew.

Li Xun Huan’s dagger hit perfectly into the tip of the sword.

The sword streams disappeared, the calm returned. Guo Song Yang stood there, still holding his sword.

Li Xun Huan still has his dagger, but the tip is now broken.

I interpret it as Li throwing his dagger at Guo's sword to cut off the sword stream, because:

-The text tells us that he cannot block the sword stream, since there are too many of them

-The sword stream precedes the physical sword, so by the time Li can block the sword, the sword stream would have already killed him

-Li throwing the dagger would be along the principles of once thrown, never misses, cutting off all those sword streams at their source with an incredibly fast and accurate throw would be a spectacular way to follow that idea. Li's intent here is to save himself without killing Guo, which he achieves in an impressive way.

-I don't agree with the the idea of a normal dagger crafted in 6 hours being able to block Guo's sword, while a unique, most likely mastercraft weapon that is known to be the heaviest in the world, wielded by Zhao Gan, a man known for extreme yang martial arts, was easily cut through by Guo.

If you want to talk about unarmed combat, ask Guo to not use his sword also then. The fight would then be fairer.

Obviously one's skills would drop when they do not have their main weapon which they have practised on for the most of their life unless they have reached the highest pinnacle of martial arts.

My point was just to refute the idea that an unarmed Li could stop Guo's sword. So I was comparing Guo's sword to Li's unarmed skills because the previous poster was stating that Li's unarmed skills were enough to stop Guo's weapon skills. My comparison was very fair.

As for your second paragraph, which sounds like a lecture, since it's so obvious duh I already knew that.

[bliss]

[


Which makes the conversation he had with Shangguan near the end of the book about 'the weapon is in the heart, not the hand' a bit of nonsense.

Shangguan and Li remarked that they had reached that level only during the last story arc. Technically, the Book of Weapons was written more than 12+ years before that so there's no way it was accounted for.

[CC]

I read Bliss's translation and went to check out the Chinese text online. I still believe that the dagger never left Lee's hand.

You can't say that because the sword energy preceded the sword, so you can't touch the sword without getting hit by the chi as the area/length/speed/shape of the sword chi was not defined.

Maybe Lee held his arm out, or moved forward a bit so and hit Guo's sword _just_ before the sword chi touched his body.

[CC]

Shangguan and Li remarked that they had reached that level only during the last story arc. Technically, the Book of Weapons was written more than 12+ years before that so there's no way it was accounted for.

I still take it as a metaphor on Lee's part. After all, Shangguan died with a physical dagger in his throat.

But we never saw Shangguan holding any weapon. Maybe Shangguan was not bullcrapping while Lee was.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I still take it as a metaphor on Lee's part. After all, Shangguan died with a physical dagger in his throat.

But we never saw Shangguan holding any weapon. Maybe Shangguan was not bullcrapping while Lee was.

Actually, if you recall, Shangguan talked about the weapon, whereas Li talked about the moves.

Li asked Shangguan where his weapons were; Shangguan asked Li where his moves were. They weren't discussing exactly the same thing, even if it was the same concept.

[Wellesley]

The text clearly states that the sword streams were unavoidable.

Even meters away, Li Xun Huan could feel the pressure of the surrounding sword stream, no matter which way he dodges, he will still be hit.

For that reason, I cannot agree with the idea that Li avoided being hit by the streams and struck at Guo from close quarters. Furthermore, that goes against Li's trend throughout the books, his style was always to throw the dagger, rather than use it to block or stab.

But it seems like there are several readers who believe that the dagger never left his hand when they read the book, this is interesting because it brings a perspective that I never considered, makes me ponder about one of my favorite battles all over again. I wonder how other readers pictured this battle the first time they read the book.

[Ian Liew]

The text clearly states that the sword streams were unavoidable.

I interpret it as Li throwing his dagger at Guo's sword to cut off the sword stream, because:

-The text tells us that he cannot block the sword stream, since there are too many of them

Just because it's not avoidable doesn't mean it's not blockable. Li thrusting his little dagger, generating streams of his own, clashing with Guo's sword and getting chipped is a perfectly reasonable interpretation. There's also no precedence (afaik) for Li's dagger actually returning to his hand after he throws it - it normally stays lodged in whatever he threw it at. It's not a boomerang. If he has it in his hand at the end of the clash, chances are it was never thrown.

[bliss]

I read Bliss's translation and went to check out the Chinese text online. I still believe that the dagger never left Lee's hand.

Actually, credit should go to Meh. He translated that part of the novel.

[bliss]

I still take it as a metaphor on Lee's part. After all, Shangguan died with a physical dagger in his throat.

But we never saw Shangguan holding any weapon. Maybe Shangguan was not bullcrapping while Lee was.

Well, it was pretty much all one big BS fest, since Tianji Laoren supposedly spewed the highest martial arts philosophy, yet he was dispatched by Shangguan Jinhong.

[kwekmh]

Well, it was pretty much all one big BS fest, since Tianji Laoren supposedly spewed the highest martial arts philosophy, yet he was dispatched by Shangguan Jinhong.

And that reminds me of the fact that you can lose all your martial arts just because you are the... top? Oh, not forgetting getting into constant fear that someone will exceed you contributes to that too.

[Ian Liew]

And that reminds me of the fact that you can lose all your martial arts just because you are the... top? Oh, not forgetting getting into constant fear that someone will exceed you contributes to that too.

I thought he lost his edge because being at the top resulted in him not having as much drive to improve as the others who had something to aim for. He knew he was ranked the first, but wasn't sure if the others had exceeded his level or not, and hence didn't want to actively search for trouble in case he was right, and unfortunately, he was.

I thought that was quite realistic, actually, and shows how complacent a normal person can be once he's at the top.

[Wellesley]

I was very disappointed with how the old man went down, i.e: without even consuming a significant part of Shangguan's killer aura, which Guo SongYang managed to do to Jing WuMing even though Guo was not going all out. So that left a fresh Shangguan to face Li.

During Shangguan and Sun's contest of techniques (their fingers moves were said to contain thousands of variation) and inner power (forceful attempts to extinguish and light the pipe, as well as the burning Shangguan's hand), I thought it was clear that Sun clearly had the advantage. Shangguan gasped, backed away and expressed his admiration at the end.

Due to his impressive showing during that fight, I thought Sun would offer a strong opposition, if not win. Perhaps Sun really lost confidence in himself at the end, or perhaps Shangguan's skill with his Dragon and Phoenix Rings far exceed his unarmed skills. Maybe the previous battle was between Sun's specialty, his pipe skills and Shangguan using only part of his martial arts.

[CC]

To be fair to Old Man Sun, he did not specifically state that he himself had reached beyond that 'weapon in theart heart' level and attained the 'everything is nothing Zen bullcrap'.

He might have recognised that there was such a level without attaining it himself.

[Ian Liew]

During Shangguan and Sun's contest of techniques (their fingers moves were said to contain thousands of variation) and inner power (forceful attempts to extinguish and light the pipe, as well as the burning Shangguan's hand), I thought it was clear that Sun clearly had the advantage. Shangguan gasped, backed away and expressed his admiration at the end.

I think the difference was not so much in Old Man Sun's skill, but in the presence of Li in the background. Shangguan probably wouldn't want to fight both at the same time, even with Jing Wuming beside him, and hence pulled back before he exerted himself (there was not even any guarantee that Li and Sun wouldn't attack either, so it was best to not commit to anything). The second time, Sun was alone, and Shangguan could afford to test Sun further, and he found that Sun wasn't as powerful as he expected.

In the same way, if Guo Songyang hadn't drugged Li, and had Li standing at the sides watching, he might have done better against Jing, as Shangguan wouldn't commit to helping Jing if things went Guo's way.

[CC]

I think the difference was not so much in Old Man Sun's skill, but in the presence of Li in the background. Shangguan probably wouldn't want to fight both at the same time, even with Jing Wuming beside him, and hence pulled back before he exerted himself (there was not even any guarantee that Li and Sun wouldn't attack either, so it was best to not commit to anything). The second time, Sun was alone, and Shangguan could afford to test Sun further, and he found that Sun wasn't as powerful as he expected.

In the same way, if Guo Songyang hadn't drugged Li, and had Li standing at the sides watching, he might have done better against Jing, as Shangguan wouldn't commit to helping Jing if things went Guo's way.

In short, a lot of lives would have been saved if only Sun, Li and Guo had just ganged up on Shangguan and Jing halfway thru the book instead of waiting for people to die.