Does Zhang Wuji have the ability to give Fan Yao pointers in martial arts?

[tape]

Fan Yao was always mentioned as having knowledge of all martial arts under the heavens, and we know that Wuji is a bumbling martial artist that only succeeds because of his huge inner strength and super advanced martial arts that he doesn't really seem to use at their full potential.

When Qingshu was using clawing people to death and FY was about to challenge him, he first asked Wuji for some tips and they did some finger stances. My question is whether it really makes sense for Wuji to be able to instruct FY in overcoming im. His general method of victory is being WAY stronger, way faster, and way more durable than the opponent and having access to higher level martial arts as well.

Does he have the ability to give direction based on Fan Yao's power level and abilities, or at least give better direction than Fan Yao would have thought of himself ? Iirc, he taught him a Taiji move, but I'm not sure how FY would be able to learn and execute such a high level martial art seconds/minutes before the battle. Wuji at this point has still only practiced martial arts for about 2-3 years, and his experience and mindset is still not that of an elite fighter yet.

I imagine Wuji to be an extremely fast 8 foot tall basketball player. He dominates everyone and is without doubt the best player, but he wouldn't be very useful in giving advice on how non super quick 6'10 people should be playing.

Imaginary scenario....

FY: So what would Jiaozhu recommend I do to beat him?
Wuji: Well you can just let him hit you and then repel him with ultra inner strength.
FY: I'm not sure I can do that...
Wuji: Or you could just wait until he attacks first and then copy his move and get there before him.
FY: I'm not that fast...
Wuji: Well you can just divert his claw onto himself with QKDNY.
FY: *sighs* I'm just going to go ask Zhang Zhenren.

[CFT]

I think ZWJ has good understanding of the martial principles, similar to his father it would seem.

What he lacks is killer instinct and experience (compared to his subordinates), but Fan Yao has both in abundance. So I would say FY would have been able to learn and employ what ZWJ had to teach him.

[Dirt]

I think Zhang Wuji does have the ability to give Fan Yao tips. Zhang Wuji, far from being stupid, is very intelligent and was taught by Zhang Sanfeng for months in martial arts. Plus, he completely absorbed the essence of Taiji Sword/Fist, a high level martial art.

[tape]

Fan Yao was also a great talent in martial arts, and has practiced for no less than 20-30 years.

I don't like how having an extremely high level of inner strength somehow grants you martial arts insight. Xu Zhu and Duan Yu show a much more logical progression, where they go from useless to competent, and still we can tell they lack the martial arts ability of Xiao Feng but make up for it in superior technique and inner power.

Zhang Wuji is intelligent no doubt, but he does not seem much more so than anyone of Wudang hero+, with inner power as the only reason he is truly dominating.

And I'd like to bring up the fact that Zhang Cuisan as the most talented of the Wudang disciples, still may not be THAT much more talented than the rest. Everyone admitting he is the most talented doesn't mean naught if he's only 10% more talented. Remember that he is still weaker than Yu Lianzhou despite already training for 10+ years. His talent has not gotten him much farther than the rest of the brothers, and I argue that even if he does become the most powerful, he wouldn't be too much better than Yu. He just has partial main character syndrome where we get to see him in action more.

[Dirt]

True that Fan Yao was a great talent and practiced for 20-30 years. But just it was said (I believe) that learning with Hong Qi for 3 days was like learning kung fu for years, Zhang Wuji had no less than the Greatest Martial Artist in Jin Yong canon teaching him for months. I'm not sure that Zhang Wuji is smarter than Linghu Chong (LHC's mind certainly moves faster than Zhang Wuji who is more of a ponderer), however, I think even if Zhang Wuji was dumber than LHC, spending months practicing with Zhang Sanfeng has gotta be as good as LHC learning Dugu 9 Jian with Feng Qingyang. And Taiji Sword, to me, is as good as Dugu Jiujian.

[tape]

True that Fan Yao was a great talent and practiced for 20-30 years. But just it was said (I believe) that learning with Hong Qi for 3 days was like learning kung fu for years, Zhang Wuji had no less than the Greatest Martial Artist in Jin Yong canon teaching him for months. I'm not sure that Zhang Wuji is smarter than Linghu Chong (LHC's mind certainly moves faster than Zhang Wuji who is more of a ponderer), however, I think even if Zhang Wuji was dumber than LHC, spending months practicing with Zhang Sanfeng has gotta be as good as LHC learning Dugu 9 Jian with Feng Qingyang. And Taiji Sword, to me, is as good as Dugu Jiujian.

The problem I have with Wuji being able to teach others is because he frequently gets into trouble himself. Even after learning with Zhang Sanfeng, he got manhandled by the Persians with 5% of his inner power.

Compare that to when he used the weird Persian art against his uncles when they were trying to capture him. They used solid Taiji and he, with likely 10x their inner power and insider knowledge of their martial arts, had trouble breaking free and subduing them. The two fights actually show that his combat experience/martial arts understanding is actually still at a rather low level, and cannot even be compared to his uncles, whom are also only on the same level as Fan Yao.

[Dirt]

Yeah, Zhang Wuji is more of a ponderer. He has neither the instincts nor a quick, reflexive mind. However, just as he is able to take his knowledge of medicine to bear upon a disease and cure that disease, I believe, given time to ponder on the problem, he'll come up with a better solution than anybody, including martial arts. And he did have the opportunity to observe and come up with a solution during the fight at Shaolin.

[tape]

Random bump, but does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'm still puzzled with whether we're supposed to believe learning superior inner strength and techniques is supposed to give you better martial arts insight than someone who's been a master for many decades.

It's common for someone to be stronger, but to be a better theorist and have a higher understanding within a year over decades with other people?

[CancerLuna]

It's kind of a hard question, because characters in the novel don't have the hindsight us readers have. To Fan Yao, he sees Wuji dominating, with amazing martial arts and a high level of internal energy. I think all of that lends into a ludicrous amount of credibility in the field of martial arts. Even if the advice is bad, I think he would see it more credible than his own.

Remember, characters in novels are pretty bad at judging other people's skill level, ZCS thinking XX is a match for Z3F comes to mind.

As for the actual question, I doubt Wuji can give Fan Yao instruction on how to fight, but with his QKDNY, he might be able to see a weakness Fan Yao doesn't see.

[ChanceEncounter]

Extra perspectives are never a bad thing. Even if ZWJ's can't tell him how to do things, as long as FY knows his own limitations, he can always ask others and maybe the discourse will give him a new perspective or a new way to attack an opening.

[Patudo]

Imaginary scenario....

FY: So what would Jiaozhu recommend I do to beat him?
Wuji: Well you can just let him hit you and then repel him with ultra inner strength.
FY: I'm not sure I can do that...
Wuji: Or you could just wait until he attacks first and then copy his move and get there before him.
FY: I'm not that fast...
Wuji: Well you can just divert his claw onto himself with QKDNY.
FY: *sighs* I'm just going to go ask Zhang Zhenren.

What happened in the book is far different from your "imaginary scenario". Wuji gives Fan Yao pointers based on a deep understanding of martial arts. Later on those very moves are employed by Yu Lianzhou in defeating Song Qingshu . I think that answers the question whether Wuji had the insight to give Fan Yao pointers - at least against Song Qingshu's recently-learned Jiuyin White Bone Claw.

Fan Yao shook his head without saying anything. He was deep in thought to find a way to break this particular stance. After staring blankly for half a day, he suddenly approached Zhang Wuji.

“Jiaozhu,” he said, “Subordinate wants to consult with you a martial art stance.” With his palms pressed on the table, he stretched out his left hand index finger, and then his right hand index finger, one after another. With an incredible nimbleness he moved the fingers continuously seven times. And then with a low voice said, “My arms will attack successively this way. I only need to coil around this boy’s arm, and exert my internal energy to break his arm joint. With a broken arm, even if his fingers were fiercer, he would not be able to execute his move.”

Zhang Wuji also moved around his fingers on the table. Left hooked, right lifted. “Be careful not to let his fingers pierce your arms,” he said.

Fan Yao nodded his agreement. He said, “I will use ‘qin na shou’ [grab and seize, grappling technique] to grab his wrist, and then ‘shiba lu yuanyang lian huan tui’ [eighteen way/method mandarin ducks chain legs (continuous kicking)] to kick the lower part of his body].”

Zhang Wuji said, “Attack him ferociously with eighty one stances, don’t give him any opportunity to take a breather.”

These two people’s four fingers moved backward and forward, attacked and defended with exceptional speed. Fan Yao suddenly smiled, “Jiaozhu’s attacks are too marvelous. I don’t think this boy has this kind of power. His martial art is limited. He won’t be able to unleash the full potential of these several stances.”

Zhang Wuji also showed a faint smile and said, “If he cannot unleash the full potential of these three stances, then Fan You Shi, you have already won.” His left index finger made two circles, right index fingers suddenly thrust out from within the circles and hooked Fan Yao’s finger. He smiled slightly without saying anything.

Fan Yao was startled. “Many thanks for Jiaozhu’s directions,” he delightedly said, “The admiration of your subordinate reaches the highest level. These four stances are unthinkable. They truly enlightened subordinate’s dark mind. I really wish I could bow to you and take you as my master.”

Zhang Wuji replied, “These are part of Taijiquan technique bestowed to me by my Tai Shifu, the ‘luan huan jue’ [secret of the random circles]. The main point is the circles made by the left hand. Although this man surnamed Song came from Wudang, I don’t think he has mastery over the most refined of these principles.”

With this new idea in his mind, Fan Yao was confident he could defeat Song Qingshu.

Shortly afterward...

Yu Lianzhou had clearly seen the way Song Qingshu used his claw to kill the two elders of the Beggar Clan. If there were no previous fatal example, Yu Lianzhou would have been taken by surprise by this kind of fierce and killer stance. Although he might not die, but he would certainly be seriously injured. However, since he had seen this stance, he had prepared beforehand how to deal with it. On the other hand, Song Qingshu had not practiced this claw technique long enough; his movement did not have too many variations. His movement this time was almost the same to the previous ones.

Yu Lianzhou made a slight shoulder movement to evade. His left hand made several circles in the air.

“Ah!” Zhao Min and Fan Yao could not bear not to exclaim together, because Yu Lianzhou’s circles were exactly the ‘luan huan jue’ of Taijiquan Zhang Wuji taught Fan Yao earlier.

As Zhao Min and Fan Yao watched this, they knew Song Qingshu was in a very bad moment. Before their ‘ah!’ exclaim was even finished, the five fingers of Song Qingshu’s right hand had arrived at Yu Lianzhou’s throat.

Zhang Wuji was enraged. “He deserves to die! He deserves to die!” he muttered under his breath. The Beggar Clan’s Zhi Fa Zhanglao lost his life under this claw. Unexpectedly Song Qingshu was brazen enough to use this malicious hand toward his own martial uncle.

But he saw that one of Yu Lianzhou’s arms made a circle, while the other arm revolved in the ‘zuan fan’ [drilling/boring movement] and ‘luo xuan’ [corkscrew turn] stances from the ‘liu he jin’ [six gathering strengths] style. Yu Lianzhou’s arms coiled around Song Qingshu’s arms. ‘Crack! Crack!’ Song Qingshu’s arm joints broke.

“Qidi [seventh (younger) brother] is avenged today!” Yu Lianzhou roared.

[tape]

Eh I know what happened, I'm questioning whether the scene was realistic or even helpful. It didn't really seem that way even though that was the intention.

[Patudo]

I think it is, to be honest.

- Song Qingshu's mastery of the Jiuyin White Bone Claw wasn't that high
- Song Qingshu had already displayed most/all of his moves
- Wuji's understanding of Taiji, as mentioned on a couple of occasions, was significant (he did have the benefit of being taught by Zhang Sanfeng after all); it's well within the realm of believability, IMO, that he'd be able to use Taiji to defeat Song Qingshu. If Fan Yao had sought pointers against the more capable Zhou Zhiruo it might have been different.

I think the Persian arts used against Wuji by the three emissaries were so unorthodox and weird that they would have given a lot of folks in HSDS difficulty; and when Wuji was fighting his martial uncles he needed to ensure that his identity was hidden, and not just in concealing his face, either - if he had used too much of his inside knowledge they might well have guessed who he was. Jinyong probably realized that having given his main character such incredible powers, it was necessary to create situations where Wuji's use of those powers was constrained (he often doesn't wish to kill or maim his opponents, or doing so would lead to difficult political situations, etc) in order for the story to maintain dramatic tension.

I don't really agree Wuji is a "bumbling martial artist". In terms of technique, I believe he's pretty good. Wuji did in fact defeat Fan Yao not just in inner power but also in technique (in their sword contest). I agree he isn't as quick-thinking or adaptable as some others might be, though.

[tape]

In the fight with his uncles, I'm pretty sure it was specifically mentioned that he knew their weaknesses and attacked them one by one and unraveled their defenses. I do agree that he didn't go all out, because if he did he would have absolutely destroyed them.

It's just a comparison of how Wuji and his uncles reacted to foreign kungfu. They calmly wove a defense and eventually lost because Wuji was so fast and powerful, while Wuji immediately began to panic and get hit a few times. He just seems to be not a very good martial artist or fighter, and relies on his extremely profound inner strength and high level techniques to win.

I view him as someone who dominates due to his natural advantages (much stronger and faster) and is unquestionably the best at the time, but mentally I can't see him as superior to elite fighters. I don't see him as being able to tone down his advice into being applicable to someone much weaker than him or being able to come up with better methods of attacking than someone exceptional like Fan Yao. There are hints of that throughout the novel like in the Brightness Peak battle, and even in this scene he ends with showing him an uber Taiji technique that shows how awesome he is and would be great if he does it, but I question it's value to Fan Yao who can't possibly learn and perform and execute such a complex technique seconds before a dangerous fight.

[CancerLuna]

Yeah, that very same powerful internal and auto-protect is IMO crippling to him. Its like he was fed a whole bunch of rare candy into lv 100. Whereas other pokemons(protagonists) leveled up regularly and got some rare candies. Hah!

[Patudo]

Upon reading the text again, I think Wuji demonstrated Taiji techniques to Fan Yao, but not as a way to defeat Song Qingshu. It reads to me that Fan Yao first demonstrated the way in which he intended to attack Qingshu to Wuji; Wuji then executed counter-moves; the last series of counter-moves using Taiji principles.

These two people’s four fingers moved backward and forward, attacked and defended with exceptional speed. Fan Yao suddenly smiled, “Jiaozhu’s attacks are too marvelous. I don’t think this boy has this kind of power. His martial art is limited. He won’t be able to unleash the full potential of these several stances.”

Zhang Wuji also showed a faint smile and said, “If he cannot unleash the full potential of these three stances, then Fan You Shi, you have already won.”

It's likely (IMO) Wuji was countering Fan Yao's techniques with Wudang skills (maybe in the knowledge that as Qingshu became hard pressed his skills would revert to his foundation Wudang skills).

In this section here:

Zhang Wuji also showed a faint smile and said, “If he cannot unleash the full potential of these three stances, then Fan You Shi, you have already won.” His left index finger made two circles, right index fingers suddenly thrust out from within the circles and hooked Fan Yao’s finger...

...Zhang Wuji replied, “These are part of Taijiquan technique bestowed to me by my Tai Shifu, the ‘luan huan jue’ [secret of the random circles]. The main point is the circles made by the left hand. Although this man surnamed Song came from Wudang, I don’t think he has mastery over the most refined of these principles.”

I think Wuji's giving Fan Yao hints on how to deal with Taiji techniques that Qingshu might employ; not suggesting that Fan Yao use those techniques. Your thoughts?

It's just a comparison of how Wuji and his uncles reacted to foreign kungfu. They calmly wove a defense and eventually lost because Wuji was so fast and powerful, while Wuji immediately began to panic and get hit a few times.

This is the text of the battle between Wuji and his martial uncles (I've taken the liberty of cutting & pasting in full so that we get to read the complete piece of text):

Zhang Wuji did not want to fight his four martial uncles, but looking at their current state, he truly did not have any other way to escape this awkward situation. Thereupon he gritted his teeth and rolled on the ground, while tossing Zhao Min toward Yin Liting. He shouted and grunted in a hoarse voice while leaping to the air, somersaulting, and stretched out his arm to grab Zhang Songxi. Yin Liting caught Zhao Min without any trouble. He hesitated for a moment before sealing her acupoint and put her down to the ground.

In this very short period of time, Zhang Wuji had unleashed the strange martial art from the Sheng Huo Ling; his fist struck Song Yuanqiao, while his leg kicked Yu Lianzhou. At the same time his head hammered toward Zhang Songxi, while his hand reached backward to snatch the sword in Yin Liting’s hand. His movements were as swift as a falcon catching a rabbit, very fast and very strange.

The Four Heroes of Wudang’s martial arts were refined and strong, they could be considered as first class fighters of the Wulin world; but facing these successive seven, eight strange attacks, they were thrown into confusion and were forced to defend themselves with difficulty. On the Lingshe Island, although Zhang Wuji’s martial art skill was high, he could not hold up against the Persian’s Liuyun, three emissaries’ martial art from the Sheng Huo Ling. By this moment, he had already mastered the martial art from all six Sheng Huo Ling tablets; his skill was several levels higher compared to the Liuyun, three emissaries, how could the Four Heroes hold up against him?

Actually, the martial arts contained in the Sheng Huo Ling were not the most profound or even intricate martial art techniques, only, they was very strange and unpredictable. If they were fighting one on one under normal circumstance, it would not be a match for Wudang Pai’s orthodox martial art based on strong inner power. But Zhang Wuji was using the Jiu Yang Shen Gong as his foundation, Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi as the general scheme of his movements, on top of that he possessed a profound knowledge of Wudang Pai’s martial art; stance by stance, form by form, he attacked the weakest point on Four Heroes’ defense.

After about twenty stances or so, the Sheng Huo Ling’s martial art was getting more and more fantastical. Lying down on the snowy ground, Zhao Min called out, “General Yalupuwa, these Han people are always proud of their own ability; they did not know we, the Mongolians, have inherited this divine wrestling technique, let them taste it today!”

“Use Taiji fist technique for self defense!” Zhang Songxi called out, “This Tartar’s fist technique is very strange.” Immediately the four people’s fist technique changed; they all used the Taiji fist technique to create a watertight defense.

Suddenly Zhang Wuji dropped down and sat on the ground, both of his fists fiercely pounding his own chest. During their entire lifetime, the Four Hero of Wudang had fought countless powerful enemies, and they had encountered countless strange stances. Zhang Wuji’s Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi could be regarded as the pinnacle of martial art study, yet not only they had never seen something like this Tartar sitting down on the ground and beating his own chest, they had never heard about it as well.

The Four Heroes were using swords to form a tight defense line with the Taiji Fist technique. This time, with a sudden movement the three swords of Song Yuanqiao, Yu Lianzhou and Zhang Songxi were thrust into Zhang Wuji’s torso. Yin Liting’s sword was snatched by Zhang Wuji earlier, but he had Mo Shenggu’s thin saber on his side, which he pulled out and thrust toward Zhang Wuji. Suddenly Zhang Wuji’s leg swept horizontally, scattering the snow on the ground toward the Four Heroes.

It was one of weird martial art stances recorded on the Sheng Huo Ling, which originated from the Old Man of the Mountain, Hassan-i-Sabah. Before founding his Hashhashin Sect, he used to rob and plunder merchants traveling along the Persian desert. Whenever he saw a caravan from the distant, he would sit on the ground and beat his on chest, while crying out to the Heaven. The passing caravan would then stop to inquire. Hassan would suddenly kick the sand toward their eyes, and immediately his long saber would kill dozens of merchants, spilling their blood on the yellow sand, scattering their corpses on the great desert. It was a truly malicious technique.

This time Zhang Wuji kicked the snow, but the efficiency was the same as if he was kicking sand. The Four Heroes of Wudang suddenly felt snow flying into their faces, rendering them blind for an instant. Four people reacted fast by leaping back immediately, but Zhang Wuji moved even faster; he rolled around and grabbed Yu Lianzhou’s legs. His hand reached out and sealed three major acupoints on his legs. After that he somersaulted and while his body was still mid-air, his right knee knocked the top of Yin Liting’s head, unexpectedly hitting the ‘wu chu’ [lit. five spots] and ‘cheng guang’ [lit. light receiver] acupoints on the top of his head. Yin Liting was dazed and fell to the ground.

Song Yuanqiao flew to the rescue, but Zhang Wuji stepped backward and bumped into his chest. Song Yuanqiao could not use his sword, his left hand withdrew the sword and his right palm struck out, but before his palm reached its target, his chest had already been numbed, as both of Zhang Wuji’s elbows hit his acupoint.

Zhang Songxi was shocked; in a blink of an eye, from four people, he was the only one still standing. He realized he was not this man’s match, but his martial brothers were in distress, he determined not to escape alone. Raising his sword straight up, ‘swish, swish, swish’ he thrust it toward Zhang Wuji three times. Zhang Wuji noticed that although he was facing a difficult situation, his steps were unflustered, the sword stance was not in the least chaotic; these three attacks came swiftly and fiercely, but each stance strictly followed Wudang principle.

Zhang Wuji secretly acclaimed, “If I have not learned this strange martial art, resisting four martial uncles’ converging attack would have been not an easy matter at all.”

Suddenly Zhang Wuji moved his head randomly, swaying back and forth, and making circles. But Zhang Songxi remained unmoved; he was not affected by Zhang Wuji’s attempt to distract his attention. With a ‘chi’ noise his sword was splitting the air, straight toward Zhang Wuji’s chest.

Zhang Wuji lowered his head, aiming his skull toward the tip of the incoming sword. Suddenly he dropped to the ground and pounced forward; all acupoints on Zhang Songxi’s lower abdomen and left leg were sealed and he fell down to the ground.

So, per the text, Wuji had his martial uncles in difficulty within "seven to eight attacks", and defeated them a little over 20 stances afterwards. (He did attack the weakest points of their defence, but he had to do it with the Persian martial art, most likely the art that he was least familiar with.) It doesn't read as though they "eventually" lost - Wuji splattered snow into their faces and immobilized three of them "in the blink of an eye" and Zhang Songxi just a few seconds after.

I agree Wuji's martial uncles reacted to his unusual style as well as they could, but they were under the direction of Zhang Songxi, who was a renowned strategist, plus, of course, their jianghu experience far exceeds Wuji's. I agree Wuji's superior speed helped him win (although I think the unusual Persian technique had a lot to do with it as well), but to immobilize his martial uncles without hurting them and without giving away his identity was a pretty difficult feat. He pretty much succeeded, too; Zhang Songxi only uncovered Wuji's face by tricking him.

I agree Wuji uses high level techniques and inner power to win most of the time. He doesn't have the "battle savvy" of a Qiao Feng. He isn't the most instinctive, natural-born fighter; but I don't think he can be considered a "bumbling martial artist" either. I think he does have the insight and understanding to offer pointers to Fan Yao and other elite martial artists.

[CFT]

I think it is safe to say that JY is consistently inconsistent with his character portrayals.