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Thread: Proposed ranking of Top 10 greatest inventors in Jin Yong universe

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Proposed ranking of Top 10 greatest inventors in Jin Yong universe

    Only explicitly mentioned characters are included.

    Hi, for the last 2 hours I've done nothing except think about who would be qualified to be ranked as the top 10 inventors of martial arts in the Jin Yong universe. After some pondering, I've come up with a proposed list. Please tell me what you think (I probably missed someone very important ).

    Please note, they are ranked strictly according to their demonstrated ability to invent. Inevitably, one consideration is how enduring is their legacy.

    Honorable mentions:
    15. Creator of Qiankun Danuoyi (mentioned in HSDS) -- created a rather freaky and next-to-impossible-to-master art; only Zhang Wuji in the history of wulin as we know it mastered the highest level; even this creator couldn't master it; it was inventive though

    14. Yang Guo (ROCH) -- developed a unique martial art called Sad Palms, comprised of 17 different stances, founded on the principle of his mood-driven personality.

    13. Lin Yuantu (mentioned in SPW) -- absorbed the bare essence of Sunflower Manuscript from an incomplete recitation; created a complete new set of martial arts called the 72 Stances of Evil-Resisting Sword based on his superior intellect.

    12. Zhou Botong (LOCH) -- creator of Vacant Fist and Left/Right Technique, 2 of the best in Jin Yong canon.

    11. Lin Chaoying (mentioned in ROCH) -- developed a comprehensive martial art system to counter the Quanzhen martial arts; her post-Jade Maiden years probably saw her drastically different in terms of martial arts performance--most likely much more speed-based than her original way

    --------------------------------------------------

    The List

    10. Nameless Eunuch, Creator of Sunflower Manuscript (mentioned in SPW) -- confirmed to be a eunuch, he invented an art that dominated wulin hundreds of years later; the ONLY art of its kind throughout Jin Yong universe (not considering its derivative, Lin Yuantu's Evil Resisting Swordplay)

    9. Murong Longcheng (mentioned in DGSD) -- one of the first explicitly mentioned inventors; created the Shifting North Star technique; became invincible during the Pre-Song/early Song era; created the first known Counter-All martial art (?)

    8. Guo Xiang (HSDS) -- creator of many Emei Sect martial arts; her sect became the 3rd biggest orthodox school in wulin within 50 years

    7. Central Divinity Wang Chongyang (mentioned in LOCH) -- founder of Big Dipper Formation (?) and Quanzhen Sect, one of LOCH's largest. Unfortunately, we don't have the details on his best art Pre-Heaven Technique, since his students couldn't learn it; his arts influenced Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhou Botong, and Yelu Qi; not to mention it was the basis for Lin Chaoying's creation

    6. Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai (mentioned in ROCH) -- inventor of Dugu 9 Swords, hands down the most mind-boggling "Teach yourself Great-level in 72 hours" art; popularizer of sword progression theory; weakness: only focused on sword theories

    5. Creator of 9 Yang Shen Gong (mentioned in HSDS) -- his superior intellect and superior knowledge conceived what he considered to be a more balanced version of 9 Yin, known as 9 Yang, which is generally accepted to be a better internal cultivation method, but worse externally, than 9 Yin; was supposedly a Confucianist, then a Taoist, then a Buddhist -- may have reached the peak of perfection in Philosophy Diversification; it's not clear how long it took him to conceived 9 Yang, but my impression is not quite the 40 years it took to invent 9 Yin; oh yeah, 9 Yang was based on 9 Yin...

    4. Huang Yaoshi (LOCH) -- one of the Great "can do all" artists; very elegant style; inventor of Mighty Snap, Bravely Descending Divine Sword Palm (Luoying Shenjian Zhang -- a palm technique based on a sword style!), Jade Flute Swordplay, Peach Blossom Island's Air-Splitting Palm, and several other Peach Blossom arts

    3. Huang Shang (mentioned in LOCH) -- created 9 Yin after 40 years of nonstop pondering; the result was something that every Great wanted; although Wang Chongyang only went for it with good intentions, he nevertheless benefited philosophically from it; more specifically, 9 Yin was more balanced than 9 Yang in the embodiment of both internal and external techniques; not to mention, 9 Yin was the basis for 9 Yang

    2. Zhang Sanfeng (HSDS; mentioned everywhere thereafter) -- took martial arts to new heights with Taiji aka Taichi; created dozens of arts in his lifetime; his legacy Wudang School endured to this day; not to mention he designed the most sophisticated power-gain formation of all time, which doubles its power with each additional member

    1. Damo (referenced everywhere, but mostly in DGSD) -- the holy grail, and founder, of Chinese martial arts; without him, we wouldn't have this list, for Chinese martial arts may not even exist.
    Last edited by PJ; 01-09-08 at 09:04 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Tom's Avatar
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    Nice list! Where do you think Xiao Yao Pai people stand on this list? They had some great stuff like Bei Ming Shen Gong.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    Nice list! Where do you think Xiao Yao Pai people stand on this list?
    Not applicable, because they didn't invent anything. They inherited the Xiaoyao Pai arts from their nameless teacher. Unfortunately, we don't know whether this teacher was the inventor of all Xiaoyao Pai arts. IF SO, then he/she would given even Damo a good run.

    Actually, we don't know who invented most of the great arts. We can only say someone invented them, but who, we just don't know.

    Actually, I have to shake up my list a little bit... stay tuned
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    Nice list! Where do you think Xiao Yao Pai people stand on this list? They had some great stuff like Bei Ming Shen Gong.
    Their names weren't explicitly mentioned, just like inventor of OTG, inventor of 6MSJ, inventor of elegon and QKDNY.

    To PJ: On HYS: lets not forget he invented a set of palms for Sha Gu (a mentally challenged) which was sufficient to scare LMC. Also a modified, 1-2 step version of Bai Gu Claws that ZZR used to terrorise wulin. What he failed is to come up with the internal part to 9 Yin, which your No. 3 Huang Shang invented.
    Last edited by yittz; 01-09-08 at 08:54 PM.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz View Post
    Their names weren't explicitly mentioned, just like inventor of OTG, inventor of 6MSJ, inventor of elegon and QKDNY.
    I am more concerned about whether the art was invented by one person or a group of people.

    Most known inventors have been single entities, but not always. For example Xiao Feng and Xuzhu co-modified the XL18Z (I think Xuzhu actively participated in the "invention", right?)

    Whether the inventor of OTG, 6MSJ, or DEP was a single entity or not, was not confirmed; for all we know one could have been invented by a group of 10 men. So they are unrankable.

    However, I *think* the inventor of Qiankun Danuoyi was confirmed to be a single entity. Is that right?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    It's hard not to notice that any one of the 3 novels in Trilogy featured a LOT more inventors than did DGSD. Everybody in DGSD seems to have inherited everything from previous unnamed creators, making the Pre-Song era a truly rich and colorful one.

    I think Jin Yong felt DGSD was too low in its invention inventory, and that's why he revised XL18Z to have been a derived invention from DGSD.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    I think I've espoused this before, but if we consider Sword of the Yue Maiden as part of Jin Yong canon, then Ah Qing should be either #2 or #1. All her martial arts were more or less self-taught/invented. My full arguments and reasons have been outlined before in this thread:

    http://spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=10379
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    i thought this discussion was going to be about inventors of objects macguyver style.
    I was going to say HYS for inventing the rock formation and huang rong (and guo jing) for inventing the heaven sword and dragon sabre.

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    Should OYF get some honorable mention for countering the Dog Beating Stick?

    I believe though that in the third edition, Jin Yong took this whole mountain scene out right? So does that mean OYF is no longer credited to have countered this Dog Beating Stick martial arts?

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    Only quibble I have is with Huang Yaoshi at #4. He created a lot of arts, but so did Wang Chongyang. And still, all his arts were either hand or sword. Had he created arts with spears or any other weapon, then I'd say he deserves #4. Also, none of Huang Yaoshi's arts were proven to better than Wang's. I dare say that Pre-Heaven is a bit superior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Only explicitly mentioned characters are included.
    ... Bravely Descending Divine Sword Palm (Luoying Shenjian Zhang -- a palm technique based on a sword style!)...
    I think Jin Yong did away with this eloquent name in the 3rd edition. It's called something generic now having to do with Peach Blossom Island. I can't seem to recall, anyone?
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,“你還要不要我帶上那面具?”
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    Taohua Luoying Zhang. I believe Athena said the change was to make it more keeping in line with the peach blossom poem.
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    I don't like how so many people on that list invented so many useless arts (namely ZSF and GX) that would never be used by a 'great' in real combat against another 'great'. But of course, if we limit the list to only arts invented for great level it would be a who's the strongest list all over again so I like this list nonetheless.
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    Senior Member kwekmh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post

    6. Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai (mentioned in ROCH) -- inventor of Dugu 9 Swords, hands down the most mind-boggling "Teach yourself Great-level in 72 hours" art; popularizer of sword progression theory; weakness: only focused on sword theories
    I disagree. We have only seen his sword theories but that does not mean that he only focused on it. He might have been experienced in all forms of martial arts but found the sword to be the best for him, hence causing him to only write down his sword theories.

    Of course, my argument is unsupported, but so is yours in a sense.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwekmh View Post
    I disagree. We have only seen his sword theories but that does not mean that he only focused on it. He might have been experienced in all forms of martial arts but found the sword to be the best for him, hence causing him to only write down his sword theories.

    Of course, my argument is unsupported, but so is yours in a sense.
    We have a recount of his entire life's martial arts progress.

    Ever since his teenage, NOTHING other than sword art was EVER mentioned.

    Using common sense, what does the above suggest?

    IMO, he might have been OK with other forms of combat, but he couldn't have excelled in them.

    For example, Yideng is best at Finger Art. He can also do palm, but he's not as good at it, and he got beat up by Qiu Qianren pretty quickly (who was an expert of the palm style).
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Btw more support for HYS being he invented a set of music to screw over ZBT. His island is designed by himself. The dishes that HR cooked for H7G are invented by him too. He even made the first boat that's designed to sink.
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    HYS reminds me of Wuyazi, in that both of them were well versed in all manner of things. Wuyazi's knowledge might have been greater, but arguably, HYS was more innovative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    HYS reminds me of Wuyazi, in that both of them were well versed in all manner of things. Wuyazi's knowledge might have been greater, but arguably, HYS was more innovative.
    Yes, Wuyazi seems to have inherited his smarts from his organization. It was said that Xiaoyao Pai has a full range of knowledge of the things he knew. There's a possibility that Wuyazi is the one who founded that knowledge, but I always have the impression that he inherited the knowledge.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    HYS reminds me of Wuyazi, in that both of them were well versed in all manner of things. Wuyazi's knowledge might have been greater, but arguably, HYS was more innovative.
    So was Yideng. He was well versed in painting, literature, his martial arts was top notch and during all this time, he ruled a good sized nation. And he was good at the healing arts as well.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    So was Yideng. He was well versed in painting, literature, his martial arts was top notch and during all this time, he ruled a good sized nation. And he was good at the healing arts as well.
    True, but not nearly to the same extent or breadth. For example, the student of the student of Wuyazi, Dr. Xue, became the most famous physician in the world, even though he had at most a fraction of his master/grandmaster's ability.

    And, of course, Wuyazi/HYS were versed in medicine, astrology, music, chess, etc., etc., whereas being well-versed in painting and literature was something expected of most noblemen of that era. Not to mention, Yideng had the benefit of literally an imperial-class education.
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