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Thread: Is Sunflower Manual or old clothing of monk stronger?

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    Senior Member aniking_8's Avatar
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    Default Is Sunflower Manual or old clothing of monk stronger?

    I was just wondering b/c both aren't the original manual and lack some techniques so which one is superior even came from same martial art.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    the short answer is: nobody knows.

    just from the way it's described, I don't get the feeling that Lin Yuantu is that powerful. They spoke of his name as a mighty person, but not so mighty that he is definitely unmatched in his era. But of course, he could have been more than meets the eye, but we don't really know.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Logic dictates that it is the old clothing which is better. Both came from Lin Yuantu, but whereas the Sunflower Manual came from casual instructions he gave to the Huashan disciples, the old clothing was the manual which he created for his own use. Consequently, he should have done a better job on it.
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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    actually the sunflower manual was comprised of two parts written by the two huashan leaders who read half of the original manual and memorised as much as they could. it was when they tried to put the two halfs together that it did not make sense. LYT went down the mountain and pondered what the huashan leaders had recited to him and managed to understand the essence of the skills in sunflower manual and created bixie jianfa. he wrote it down on his robe after. the wudang leader suggested bixie jianfa might be superior only because LYT had a much deeper martial arts understanding then the two huashan leaders but since LYT only read what they had written down, it's unlikely that bixie jianfa would be more profond. what DFBB studied was the two halfs of the manual the huashan leaders wrote down which was stolen by the sunmoon elders. the sunmoon elders did not master sunflower manual but managed to benefit from it to create new skills. it is likely DFBB understood the essence of sunflower manual similar to how LYT did, by his own intelligence. RWX also understood the essence of sunflower skill but did not pursue it as he had already started to learn XXDF. it takes an expert to understand sunflower manual but bixie jianfa is easier to master(lower level fighters learned it), possibly because LYT explained the difficult parts clearly or simplifed it.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    You're mistaken, kyss. The sunflower manual was based upon the casual instructions given by Lin Yuantu, upon reading the two different memorized parts which the two Huashan leaders had written down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Logic dictates that it is the old clothing which is better. Both came from Lin Yuantu, but whereas the Sunflower Manual came from casual instructions he gave to the Huashan disciples, the old clothing was the manual which he created for his own use. Consequently, he should have done a better job on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    You're mistaken, kyss. The sunflower manual was based upon the casual instructions given by Lin Yuantu, upon reading the two different memorized parts which the two Huashan leaders had written down.
    Perhaps you are right but the old clothing version contains the 72 useless strokes that the Sunflower version doesn't.

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    Senior Member devilz91's Avatar
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    I've seen it argued both ways so can't really say for sure. Just assume they're equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by devilz91 View Post
    I've seen it argued both ways so can't really say for sure. Just assume they're equal.
    They both are pretty garbage considered the prerequisite of learning either one. There are better martial arts out there such as Dugu 9 Sword, Yijin Jing and Taiji Swordplay that don't require any sacrifice.

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    Yes because everyone has access to those arts.

    On a side note though, why would Yue Buqun not even attempt to use superspeed with his normal techniques instead of relying on just using the 72 strokes over and over again? As a martial arts master, it's hard to believe he wouldn't spend a few hours experimenting.

    Is it possible that the 72 strokes are incredibly crappy at normal speed, but at accelerated speeds are somehow superior to normally better techniques?

    I don't think it's as simple as it making you super fast, so there's a chance that the positioning and acceleration of the 72 strokes are almost useless at normal speeds, but are optimal at super speeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    Yes because everyone has access to those arts.

    On a side note though, why would Yue Buqun not even attempt to use superspeed with his normal techniques instead of relying on just using the 72 strokes over and over again? As a martial arts master, it's hard to believe he wouldn't spend a few hours experimenting.

    Is it possible that the 72 strokes are incredibly crappy at normal speed, but at accelerated speeds are somehow superior to normally better techniques?

    I don't think it's as simple as it making you super fast, so there's a chance that the positioning and acceleration of the 72 strokes are almost useless at normal speeds, but are optimal at super speeds.
    Perhaps you are right. If you think about modern martial artist, it's not that their moves are so fancy that make them powerful but their speed and power behind their moves. A simple move at a very high speed and power can be very deadly.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Not true. Those 3 arts do require a sacrifice: time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Not true. Those 3 arts do require a sacrifice: time.
    Well, all martial arts require time to practice including Bixie/Sunflower. If you compare Lin Pingzhi to DFBB, they are far far apart even though they learn the same martial art. Dugu 9 sword, Yi Jinjing, Taiji Swordplay, 9 Yin, 9 Yang and many other great martial arts from DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS are so so much better than the cheap cheap Bixie/Sunflower.

    Lin Pingzhi, DFBB and YBQ are idiotic/retarded for learning Bixie/Sunflower. Basically, anyone learning Bixie/Sunflower is retarded. If Lin Pingzhi makes thousand of copy of Bixie and spread them throughout wulin, I wonder whether there are many more idiots/retards would make the sacrifice and learn it.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Well, all martial arts require time to practice including Bixie/Sunflower. If you compare Lin Pingzhi to DFBB, they are far far apart even though they learn the same martial art. Dugu 9 sword, Yi Jinjing, Taiji Swordplay, 9 Yin, 9 Yang and many other great martial arts from DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS are so so much better than the cheap cheap Bixie/Sunflower.

    Lin Pingzhi, DFBB and YBQ are idiotic/retarded for learning Bixie/Sunflower. Basically, anyone learning Bixie/Sunflower is retarded. If Lin Pingzhi makes thousand of copy of Bixie and spread them throughout wulin, I wonder whether there are many more idiots/retards would make the sacrifice and learn it.
    But if we compare LPZ and YBQ pre/post Bixie we can see their amazing rate of improvement. YBQ was able to best ZLS in a few months, something that would have been impossible before. LPZ improvement was even more astonishing beating people decades ahead of him in even less time.

    No other art could produce such fast and reliable results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    But if we compare LPZ and YBQ pre/post Bixie we can see their amazing rate of improvement. YBQ was able to best ZLS in a few months, something that would have been impossible before. LPZ improvement was even more astonishing beating people decades ahead of him in even less time.

    No other art could produce such fast and reliable results.
    Kwok Jing was a nobody when he left Mongolia and you can see how much improvement he has in less than 2 years with 9 yin and 18 dragon palm. Cheung Mo Gei was a nobody and you can see how much improvement he has after he learned 9 yang. Ling Hu Chong was not that great to begin with but you can see how much improvement he has with dugu 9 sword and Yi Jin Jing. The martial arts I mention from the above may take a little longer time but they are great, sustainable and lead to good life. On the other hand, Bixie/Sunflower may produce faster result but it requires big sacrifice. Such sacrifice will eventually lead to the point of no return. You can look at the consequences of DFBB, YBQ and LPZ. They all leads to point of no return.

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    You make it sound like they had a choice between 9 Yang, Dragon Palms, etc and decided on Bixie. They had no other choice.

    Lin Pingzhi was ecstatic at first to even have a chance to learn regular, crappy Huashan swordplay.

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    Member MrWErD's Avatar
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    Right, I mean, who doesn't want to learn 9yin or 9yang and become the number one in the world? But if you're not the protagonist, who would have the opportunity? LOCH stresses how many people fought and died just for a shot of learning it. The entire wulin was literally at war with each other. And in the end, the number of people who actually mastered it fully are in the single digits. Out of thousands. As for HL18J, it's usually reserved for the leader of the Beggar Sect. Plus, both styles are probably extinct by this period so you shouldn't compare one era's style to another.

    I have a question unrelated to OP's topic. Can a woman learn from the Sunflower Manual or Bixie sword?

    As I read the story, it seems it's a set of martial arts designed specifically for a woman, comparable to how XLN moved in ROCH. Maybe it has some connections to the Ancient Tomb sect? If DG9S came from the Ancient Tomb sect like some have theorize, it makes some pretty cool parallels.

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    There really isn't that much information besides needing to castrate yourself, but if it has anything to do with sexual urges and desires, women have that too unless the clitoris (and possibly more?) is removed. So I think it would require some sort of mutilation either way to successfully learn it.

    The art was created by a eunuch, so I don't think it was designed for women. Just perfect for himself lol.

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    Senior Member Mandred Skavenslayer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Kwok Jing was a nobody when he left Mongolia and you can see how much improvement he has in less than 2 years with 9 yin and 18 dragon palm. Cheung Mo Gei was a nobody and you can see how much improvement he has after he learned 9 yang. Ling Hu Chong was not that great to begin with but you can see how much improvement he has with dugu 9 sword and Yi Jin Jing. The martial arts I mention from the above may take a little longer time but they are great, sustainable and lead to good life. On the other hand, Bixie/Sunflower may produce faster result but it requires big sacrifice. Such sacrifice will eventually lead to the point of no return. You can look at the consequences of DFBB, YBQ and LPZ. They all leads to point of no return.
    GJ two years learning at least three arts, plus guidance from 3/4 great level fighters, plus snake blood vs a LPZ couple of months on his own for the same results. Do we even need to do the maths.
    ZWJ total isolation for five years and even then needed specific events before he could fully access the art.
    LHC again needed a very specific chain of events to reach his level. Remember FQY said he needed at least a decade before he could master Dugu 9 sword.

    None of your examples show anyone studying a single art and producing the same or even similar results to Bixie in the same length of time and with no external factors. Although Bixie/Sunflower does require a great physical sacrifice I dispute that the art itself will lead to the point of no return for Lin Yuantu was able to create it without turning evil.

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    An interesting thing to think about is that Dongfong Bubai might have been happier after he practiced the manual. Prior to it, he was no doubt stressed by the scheming and power struggles of the world; afterwards he said he realized the joys and simplicity of life outside of those things...but then again he expressed his jealousy of not being born a pretty young woman like RYY.

    In the end, Bixie represented different things for different people, which may or may not have been the theme. For DFBB, he was already close to the peak of existence, but it brought him to the utter peak. For YBQ, he was stuck in the middle and needed a final boost. For LPZ, he was at the lowest rung and was desperate to get as high as he could as quickly as he could.
    The drawbacks for all three mirrored what they received. DFBB did not suffer too much as he did not gain as much; YBQ gained a lot but lost a lot; LPZ probably lost the most as he also gained the most in terms of relative martial arts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    You make it sound like they had a choice between 9 Yang, Dragon Palms, etc and decided on Bixie. They had no other choice.

    Lin Pingzhi was ecstatic at first to even have a chance to learn regular, crappy Huashan swordplay.
    LPZ was about to marry YLS, so if he was smart enough he could have wait for YBQ to depart his huashan martials art to him. YLS is YBQ only daughter so by common sense he would treat him as a family member.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandred Skavenslayer View Post
    GJ two years learning at least three arts, plus guidance from 3/4 great level fighters, plus snake blood vs a LPZ couple of months on his own for the same results. Do we even need to do the maths.
    ZWJ total isolation for five years and even then needed specific events before he could fully access the art.
    LHC again needed a very specific chain of events to reach his level. Remember FQY said he needed at least a decade before he could master Dugu 9 sword.

    None of your examples show anyone studying a single art and producing the same or even similar results to Bixie in the same length of time and with no external factors. Although Bixie/Sunflower does require a great physical sacrifice I dispute that the art itself will lead to the point of no return for Lin Yuantu was able to create it without turning evil.
    If I were LPZ, I would search all the caves in the mountains. Eventually I would find all the great martial arts like 9-yin, 9-yang, dugu 9 sword . If I were him, I would never learn Bixie myself, I would make thousand of copies and speed them throughout wulin.

    Quote Originally Posted by tape View Post
    An interesting thing to think about is that Dongfong Bubai might have been happier after he practiced the manual. Prior to it, he was no doubt stressed by the scheming and power struggles of the world; afterwards he said he realized the joys and simplicity of life outside of those things...but then again he expressed his jealousy of not being born a pretty young woman like RYY.

    In the end, Bixie represented different things for different people, which may or may not have been the theme. For DFBB, he was already close to the peak of existence, but it brought him to the utter peak. For YBQ, he was stuck in the middle and needed a final boost. For LPZ, he was at the lowest rung and was desperate to get as high as he could as quickly as he could.
    The drawbacks for all three mirrored what they received. DFBB did not suffer too much as he did not gain as much; YBQ gained a lot but lost a lot; LPZ probably lost the most as he also gained the most in terms of relative martial arts.
    Without Sunflower, DFBB was an intelligent man. He would be way more powerful, not by martial at but by intelligence. Without sunflower, RWX would not have a chance of coming back. DFBB would kill him and RYY. Without Bixie, YBQ would be a respectable man in wulin, a great teacher and a happy family. Without Bixie, LPZ would be a happy family man with a beautiful wife Lingshan. Sunflower/Bixie destroyed the life of 3 men.

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