Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 85

Thread: ZWJ, the real MAN of the Condor Trilogy

  1. #21
    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    currently in malaysia
    Posts
    1,772

    Default

    character wise, guo jing was the strongest, in that he had the least self doubts. he was confused often, but he learned from his expirences and often was able to make sound decisions without hesitation.
    yang guo was smart and honarable, he was weird but did not have much self doubt. when he made a decision, he stuck by it. he was a bit obsessed with XLN but not overly. he found his own way to be a hero through he initially did not want to be involved in the war.
    ZWJ had a sense of right and wrong but he often found his heart was not in all the task before him. he wanted to serve his people, but found the duty of cult chief conflicting with his desires. he had ability but i think he was happier as a physician then a sect/cult leader. he did not have ambitions and had a great deal of self-doubt. pontentially, he was the most likely to achieve the most but had the most self-doubt and least desire to achieve it.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

  2. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    512

    Default

    He's lucky with most women, fame, and powerful martial art ar his age while GJ and YG is far behind him at his age so ZWJ could be stronger then them later on.

  3. #23
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aniking_8 View Post
    He's lucky with most women, fame, and powerful martial art ar his age while GJ and YG is far behind him at his age so ZWJ could be stronger then them later on.
    In terms of martial arts development, Cheung Mo Gei already overtook them...not in absolute value terms, but Cheung Mo Gei in his twenties reached a level of martial arts development that Yeung Gor did not reach until his thirties, Gwok Jing in his fifties, and the older Greats in their seventies.

  4. #24
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    In this, I suppose Zhang Wuji did fail as a man, he left Ming Cult in Yang Xiao's care and left Jiang Hu.
    I think that although it turned out to be the wrong decision (as far as the fate of the Ming Cult went), it was nonetheless not an unwisely made decision in light of the known circumstances of the time. By the time he made the decision to withdraw from the Ming Cult, Cheung Mo Gei wasn't really the right man to lead them anymore. He was the right man for the job when the objective was to repair the relationship between the Ming Cult and mainstream Chinese wulin, but after the Ming Cult ceased being perceived as the evil "demonic" cult and came to be accepted, even admired by the wulin mainstream, the cult needed a different leader: someone who was less a diplomat (which Cheung Mo Gei was) and more of the aggressive, ambitious type leader. The Ming Cult's status in wulin had changed greatly under Cheung Mo Gei's leadership, and ironically, his success as leader made his function in the role obsolete.

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    512

    Default

    He did all he need and beside the Mongolian lost so he can live happy life likw GJ & HR in island and YG & XLN in the mountain.

  6. #26
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aniking_8 View Post
    He did all he need and beside the Mongolian lost so he can live happy life likw GJ & HR in island and YG & XLN in the mountain.
    At the time that Cheung Mo Gei resigned from the Ming Cult, the Mongols had not been driven out of China yet (although it was only a matter of time). The real disaster was setting up circumstances under which Chu Yeun Cheung would be able to seize power and ultimately purge the Ming Cult from within. Cheung Mo Gei's resignation precipated the chain of events that would lead to that sorry fate for the Ming Cult, but it's difficult to blame him for that because it was so unforeseeable.

  7. #27
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    The thing that I believe is unmanly for Yang Guo to do was to kill himself because he thought his Gu Gu was dead!
    I'm not sure YG was completely clear headed when he jumped. He ran from north to south exhausting himself when he found out that the south sea nun was not real. He also did not sleep for a couple of days and add on fact that the person who he had waited for 16 years had died...it just drove him over the edge. In fact he was seeing a vision of XLN talking to him before he jumped. When GX talked to him after when he was clear headed, he thought to himself that he would not attempt to take his life again even if he wanted to.

    The thing is, emotionally ZWJ is as soft as YG. If he went through the same thing as YG over that 3-4 day span I would not be surprised if he jumped as well....IMO ZWJ=YG minus the mean streak (not neccesarily a bad thing, but it does SOME people the impression that WJ is "weak".
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  8. #28
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    512

    Default

    Is HSDS characters ever mention later on and is all Jinyong novels connected like some I'm not familiar with like Twin Blade or Yue Maiden Sword.

  9. #29
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    2,822

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Zhang Wuji get's no respect. He's often viewed as wishy-washy with great kung fu, but poor fighting skills. While some of the criticisms against him are valid, I think that people over-look the things that makes him a "true" man, more so than the other 2 Condor Trilogy heroes: Guo Jing and Yang Guo.
    For the record, CMK is my favorite main male character of the trilogy. I might be the only one who feels this way, but I love how he loved all 4 girls equally in the end (3rd edition).
    Last edited by Felix; 03-04-08 at 02:33 AM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member i_fotted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    969

    Default

    ZWJ was a wuss, YG was emo, GJ was the real man!

  11. #31
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    771

    Default

    Most argue that ZWJ is a poor fighter. I disagree, he fights not to win, but to settle the fight. How many times during HSDS did he enter a fight with the intent of knocking the opponent down, in other words, giving physical damage? I recall three times; against the xuan min elders at the pagoda, against the 24 monks and the last fight against the Du monks. He did wery well in all three fights. We must remember that ZWJ does not like to fight and often he will go soft on his opponent. Like the time with the persians. As the central plains ming leader, he had to watch out to not start a war between the two ming sects.

    And his poor fighting instinct? He doesnt have poor fighting instince than the next guy. If you compare him to GJ or YG, how many days of fighting training did ZWJ get? GJ had the 7 freaks , H7Q , 9 yin and ZBT. YG had GJ, XLN, 9 yin, OYF, H7Q and big bird. If we strip GJ and YG training with their masters, they wouldnt be far ahead of ZWJ, in fact I think GJ would be like an ant in comparison. YG would do better, on par with ZWJ, maybe have a slight better fighting instinct because he's more cunning.

    Back to my first point, to fight just to knock down your opponent is easy. Fighting to gracefully settle a dispute or misunderstanding is much harder.

    I think JY made ZWJ' character more complex than GJ or YG.

    And his love life? He had it thougher than GJ or YG. The situation is more complex and authentic than GJ. JY made GJ to only love HR and vice verca. Everything that stod between their love were outside factors. YG and XLN only love each other as well. Society and traditional was the main factor. With ZWJ, it was mostly emotions.

    In wuxia context, GJ had the easiest obsticle to overcome. YG and ZWJ had it much harder. But the average wuxia fan has more understanding to YG's fight for love, because he is fighting external factors. The average wuxia fan is more into whos is better fighter than who, than into emotional issues. So ZWJ becomes wishy washy.

    But that doesnt mean he's wishy washy or a wuz. That only means that he has a more developed character. In a sense, a more real character --> the REAL man of the Condor trilogy.

    My 2 cents.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  12. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    712

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen View Post
    Ah yes. I didn't bother reading it completely because of the display errors. It's still jilted but, I see now that he's going through the list of all the women who left him, died on him and betrayed him. He can't lose another one. This sounds like the turning point for him, when he realizes that she's the one. Still, he didn't actually jump off a cliff.



    Fighting ability alone doesn't make a man. Dong Fang Bu Bai was the greatest fighter of his generation.
    Man I can't get any further than the title of this thread. ZWJ is not worthy to clean Yang Guo's boots.

  13. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    512

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by i_fotted View Post
    ZWJ was a wuss, YG was emo, GJ was the real man!
    GJ was dumb hero, YG was emotional hero, and ZWJ was a real hero in the end of trilogy.

  14. #34
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,492

    Default

    If you compare him to GJ or YG, how many days of fighting training did ZWJ get? GJ had the 7 freaks , H7Q , 9 yin and ZBT. YG had GJ, XLN, 9 yin, OYF, H7Q and big bird. If we strip GJ and YG training with their masters,
    Just to note. The 7 freaks proboally hurt GJ's development more than anything. He did not learn anything until MY taught him inner power(basic) methods. H7G taught GJ for a whopping month+ a couple of minutes with the last 3 stances of XL18Z. ZBT also taught GJ for a month or two max, and 9yin is a manual not a teacher..its like saying WJ had 9Yang.

    YG was taught sparingly by OYF and the lessons were not good. YG was only a kid at a time and could not understand alot of the advanced theories, he only progressed because of his natural talent. It was also mentioned that some of the martial arts that OYF taught YG was very dangerous and could have killed him if practiced wrong...in fact he did not teach a 30 year old OYK some of the things he taught a 13 year old YG because of this...so a messed up OYF was definetly not a good teacher. GJ did not teach YG anything. 7G spent a night teaching him only the stances of DBS(which is pretty useless without the formula).
    And the big bird is a big bird, without YG's intelligent he would have died in the rivers current. HYS taught YG theories for a couple of days and it was again up to YG to learn and master them by himself. Which leaves XLN as the only legimate teacher who spent years teaching and training YG, but even then YG and XLN learned both QZ's martial arts and the final stage of JMHM together.


    So I guess the real question is whether YG and GJ would be able to master 9Yang and QQDNY with only the manuals + couple of months of guidance from Z3F. IMO they proboally could.

    BTW, IMO WJ is proboally a martial arts genius though 2. He went through the full 9Yang manual in 5 years as a 14-15(?) year old kid...not 2 many people in the JY cannon could proboally do that.


    But that doesnt mean he's wishy washy or a wuz. That only means that he has a more developed character. In a sense, a more real character --> the REAL man of the Condor trilogy.
    Definetly agree with the first part..not 2 sure about the second lol.
    Last edited by duguxiaojing; 03-04-08 at 10:55 PM.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  15. #35
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by duguxiaojing View Post
    BTW, IMO WJ is proboally a martial arts genius though 2. He went through the full 9Yang manual in 5 years as a 14-15(?) year old kid...not 2 many people in the JY cannon could proboally do that.
    Even Cheung Mo Gei didn't learn all that from a vacuum, however. He had some background in the 9 Yeung Jen Ging even before he found the complete manual inside the gorilla because Cheung 3 Fung and the Mo Dong 5 Heroes had taught him some of the Mo Dong Sect 9 Yeung Technique to preserve his life from the Yeun Ming Divine Palm cold poison. Furthermore, Cheung Mo Gei's five years spent learning medicine from Dr. Wu Ching Ngau gave him medical insights that facilitated his further training in the 9 Yeung Jen Ging. It was a very unconventional background for learning advanced martial arts, but it worked.

  16. #36
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    771

    Default

    Re Dugu... and Ken.

    I was trying to make the point that ZWJ didnt have anyone to teach him HOW to fight. At least GJ and YG had guidence.

    I believe that if ZWJ swap place with GJ, then ZWJ would have become a GREAT (with great fighting abilities) just as GJ did, and perhaps much sooner than GJ.

    And for the part 9 yin = 9 yang. In this case it is not; 9 yin had fighting strategies, while 9 yang was only energy cultivation. After memorizing 9 yin, he watch the fight between H7Q and OYF. He could relate how they fought to the 9 yin text and gained a lot from that experience.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  17. #37
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    Re Dugu... and Ken.

    I was trying to make the point that ZWJ didnt have anyone to teach him HOW to fight. At least GJ and YG had guidence.

    I believe that if ZWJ swap place with GJ, then ZWJ would have become a GREAT (with great fighting abilities) just as GJ did, and perhaps much sooner than GJ.

    And for the part 9 yin = 9 yang. In this case it is not; 9 yin had fighting strategies, while 9 yang was only energy cultivation. After memorizing 9 yin, he watch the fight between H7Q and OYF. He could relate how they fought to the 9 yin text and gained a lot from that experience.
    swap place with GJ, ZWJ wouldn't reach greathood before GJ. ZWJ only reached that because of the QK bag without it would have taken him years...

    you just have to realize that ZWJ fighting abilities sucks sure he was unmacthed in HSDS only because he just had inner power and teq. better than just everybody else save Z3F. Even so he struggled to fight with fighters far far inferior to himself.

    If he was going to fight the greats of ROCH esp. GJ, YG and ZBT he would lose badly

  18. #38
    Senior Member flamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    绿柳山庄
    Posts
    2,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus View Post
    swap place with GJ, ZWJ wouldn't reach greathood before GJ. ZWJ only reached that because of the QK bag without it would have taken him years...

    you just have to realize that ZWJ fighting abilities sucks sure he was unmacthed in HSDS only because he just had inner power and teq. better than just everybody else save Z3F. Even so he struggled to fight with fighters far far inferior to himself.

    If he was going to fight the greats of ROCH esp. GJ, YG and ZBT he would lose badly
    Hmm i would have thought ZWJ at the end of HSDS would not be far below ROCH Greats, maybe even equal. And seeing how ZWJ was like in his 20s at that time, comparing with ppl who are in their 70s, 50s, and 30s is not too fair but despite that, ZWJ will not have too much of a disadvantage if he did fight with them. That is of course, he did want to fight, and fight to win.

  19. #39
    Senior Member AnhHung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    771

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamer View Post
    Hmm i would have thought ZWJ at the end of HSDS would not be far below ROCH Greats, maybe even equal. And seeing how ZWJ was like in his 20s at that time, comparing with ppl who are in their 70s, 50s, and 30s is not too fair but despite that, ZWJ will not have too much of a disadvantage if he did fight with them. That is of course, he did want to fight, and fight to win.
    Yes, ZWJ at the end HSDS were a much better fighter. IMHO, he would be on par with the other GREATS.
    You do know that it is just fiction, dont you?

  20. #40
    Senior Member endo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    SeaTown
    Posts
    215

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AnhHung View Post
    Yes, ZWJ at the end HSDS were a much better fighter. IMHO, he would be on par with the other GREATS.
    Skill wise and internal energy cultivation wise...ZWJ at the end of HSDS should be on par with the GREATS at the end of ROCH....however, in fighting and battle experience, he will probably lose out to the GREATS.

    but....what ZWJ has is some serious potential. He was in his early 20s at the end of HSDS and armed with an array of pretty impressive martial arts skills (9Yang, QKDNY, Persian MA from the Fire Tablets, Taichi Fists, Taichi Sword), his eventual martial arts evolution should surpass the GREATS easily when he reaches the same age as the relatively young YG at the end of ROCH.
    "my only fear of death is reincarnation...back into this life of strife" - 2pac

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 79
    Last Post: 12-06-12, 10:17 AM
  2. Replies: 58
    Last Post: 08-15-10, 09:15 PM
  3. More Condor Trilogy skepticism
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 130
    Last Post: 08-23-07, 09:59 AM
  4. 2 condor trilogy-related questions
    By PJ in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-01-05, 08:07 PM
  5. Ranking the weapons of Condor Trilogy
    By Temujin in forum Wuxia Fiction
    Replies: 61
    Last Post: 09-15-04, 10:30 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •