View Poll Results: Who would win this matchup?

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  • Zhang Wuji and Lady Yang

    12 41.38%
  • WCY and LCY

    16 55.17%
  • Tie.

    1 3.45%
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Thread: ZWJ and Lady Yang vs WCY and LCY...

  1. #21
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    We also know that ZWJ never thought she was on the same level as Z3F and himself.
    But has she demonstrated her maximum power or not, we don't know.
    If she only used 30% of her power and that was enough to quickly subdue Zhou Zhiruo, then it'd be understandable that nobody thought she's a Great.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #22
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    WCY and LCY die at age weaker then ROCH greats but close to Greats end of LOCH bu still ZWJ and Lady Yang are at high level already sothey miht win.

  3. #23
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    But i guess the "they are not famous, ie they can('t) be good/bad" doesnt always work. I mean like, who has heard of the Sweeper Monk and his prowess before he fought? So from looking at the character's written description on the way he/she fights should be a better indicator.

    LCY was said to be able to defeat WCY, which makes her at least LOCH Great+. But she might only be able to do this cuz of her specific swordplay designed against WCY. But still she wouldnt be far off WCY.

    Lady Yang would clearly be a more uncertain character cuz she did not actually fight with a top level fighter and the possibility that she only did it cuz she was familiar with 9 Yin (just like LCY's swordplay against WCY). Of course its still possible that Yang only used like 10% (0_0) to beat ZZR, but its not like she defeated ZZR in one stance, she took a couple, so she cant be the Sweeper Monk type character and it will be hard and strange fro JY to put someone between Sweeps and ROCH Great. The chances of her being as strong as a ROCH Great is not very high IMO, seeing how her dad was one, and the chances of her (in her age) being as strong as YG is not very likely, especially she should not be able to use Sad Palms to max effect, falling short to the level of YG.

    If Lady Yang is weaker than YG, LCY should have little difficulty handling her, although it might take some time. Or LCY and WCY can take them together with Jade Maiden which would even amplify their power. (Seeing how XLN and YG defeated GWM, who was about early ROCH Great, when they were younger and much weaker)

    Again, LCY and WCY should win

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But has she demonstrated her maximum power or not, we don't know.
    If she only used 30% of her power and that was enough to quickly subdue Zhou Zhiruo, then it'd be understandable that nobody thought she's a Great.
    Yeah, that's possible but knowing JY's writing style, what's the chance that she's really that good but JY just didn't bother to mention it? Based on how JY handled Great-level characters, I'd say it's not very likely.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Yeah, that's possible but knowing JY's writing style, what's the chance that she's really that good but JY just didn't bother to mention it? Based on how JY handled Great-level characters, I'd say it's not very likely.
    Jin Yong wanted her to be extremely mysterious.
    To have her exact martial arts level be a mystery is aligned with that goal.

    I pointed out before that Zhang Sanfeng also received no audience praise at all in HSDS for his feats. When he subdued the Xuanming Elder in one stance, nobody said "wow, that's really unbelievable." When he KO'ed the fake monk Kongxiang in one stance, nobody thought "Damn, that's great." His disciple Yu Lianzhou even solicited more praise than ZHANG REAL MAN. The response I got from you and/or others was that ZHANG REAL MAN was already known to be #1 in wulin, so no need for praise. But knowing Jin Yong's writing style, he consistently chimes in audience praises for anyone worth praising, regardless of their reputation. Sweeper Monk was unknown to wulin - he got countless praises from the DGSD Elites. Similarly, Murong Bo, Jiumozhi, and Xiao Feng, ALL received many praises from the audience, despite their well-known reputation. Zhang Wuji got plenty of it too. So I do not think your reason for Zhang Sanfeng not getting audience praise is valid, and therefore I do not think that "not getting praise" is a very valid reason for lowering the martial arts level of the Yellow-Dressed Lady.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #26
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    I'm talking more about JY letting us know that Lady Yang was a great rather than just about praise for her martial arts. You used the Sweeper Monk and Z3F as examples but for both example it's extremely clear that both men's martial arts levels were very high, regardless of praise or not from observers.

    In Lady Yang's case, there's just no such evidence. You said it's because JY wanted to give her an air of mystery but Sweeper Monk is arguably the most mysterious character, yet we know how powerful he really is. The fact that there's no suggestion whatsoever that she is that powerful leads me to believe that it's more likely she just isn't that powerful.

    Also, ZWJ's internal thought process was used as a device by JY many times to let us know about the martial arts levels of other characters. Yet, in the case of Yang, ZWJ never thought to himself that Yang was on the same level as himself. It would have been a huge deal if Yang was at the same level as ZWJ. Why didn't JY pen that thought into ZWJ if Yang happened to be the 3rd great of that era? Is it really to keep her status mysterious or is it because she just isn't at great level? Based on how JY handled such situations, I personally think that speculation about Yang being a great is just speculation.

  7. #27
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    But still i think the mopst compelling reason is that what are the chances of Lady Yang being as good as Yang Guo? To me, not very likey. Which would mean she falls short of a Great. Main reason is still that she would most likely not be able to use Sad Palms, which YG used to great effect to attain Great status.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I'm talking more about JY letting us know that Lady Yang was a great rather than just about praise for her martial arts. You used the Sweeper Monk and Z3F as examples but for both example it's extremely clear that both men's martial arts levels were very high, regardless of praise or not from observers.

    In Lady Yang's case, there's just no such evidence. You said it's because JY wanted to give her an air of mystery but Sweeper Monk is arguably the most mysterious character, yet we know how powerful he really is. The fact that there's no suggestion whatsoever that she is that powerful leads me to believe that it's more likely she just isn't that powerful.

    Also, ZWJ's internal thought process was used as a device by JY many times to let us know about the martial arts levels of other characters. Yet, in the case of Yang, ZWJ never thought to himself that Yang was on the same level as himself. It would have been a huge deal if Yang was at the same level as ZWJ. Why didn't JY pen that thought into ZWJ if Yang happened to be the 3rd great of that era? Is it really to keep her status mysterious or is it because she just isn't at great level? Based on how JY handled such situations, I personally think that speculation about Yang being a great is just speculation.
    AFAIK Lady Yang showed speed beyond that of anyone present, even the Batking (who's quicker than ZWJ over a this kind of distance), when she snatched Zhou Dian's sabre away before directing her claws at ZZR. She then fought with ZZR for a period, but it was stated that she was less interested in winning than prolonging the fight to see ZZR's moves. Her Qinggong at least is above anyone else's in the novel, while in the only fight she got into she deliberately fought below her true level, whatever that is. Here are ZWJ's thoughts on her martial arts level, from the wuxiapedia translation.

    Zhang Wuji turned around and saw that the woman in yellow was
    engaged in a close fight with Zhou Zhiruo. The woman in yellow was
    unarmed. Zhou Zhiruo had a whip in her right hand and a sabre in her
    left, yet she was losing ground. The techniques of the woman in
    yellow appeared to be similar to those of Zhou Zhiruo. ... After a
    moment, Zhang Wuji knew that the woman in yellow was bound to win,
    thus ensuring the safety of his godfather. Yet, he could tell from
    her moves that the woman in yellow seemed to be more interested in
    finding out what Zhou Zhiruo's martial arts foundations were. If she
    had sought a win in the first place, she would have struck Zhou
    Zhiruo down much earlier.

  9. #29
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I'm talking more about JY letting us know that Lady Yang was a great rather than just about praise for her martial arts. You used the Sweeper Monk and Z3F as examples but for both example it's extremely clear that both men's martial arts levels were very high, regardless of praise or not from observers.

    In Lady Yang's case, there's just no such evidence. You said it's because JY wanted to give her an air of mystery but Sweeper Monk is arguably the most mysterious character, yet we know how powerful he really is. The fact that there's no suggestion whatsoever that she is that powerful leads me to believe that it's more likely she just isn't that powerful.

    Also, ZWJ's internal thought process was used as a device by JY many times to let us know about the martial arts levels of other characters. Yet, in the case of Yang, ZWJ never thought to himself that Yang was on the same level as himself. It would have been a huge deal if Yang was at the same level as ZWJ. Why didn't JY pen that thought into ZWJ if Yang happened to be the 3rd great of that era? Is it really to keep her status mysterious or is it because she just isn't at great level? Based on how JY handled such situations, I personally think that speculation about Yang being a great is just speculation.
    Well, put the Sweeper Monk or Zhang Sanfeng in the Yellow-dressed Lady's shoes:

    -If Sweeper Monk or Zhang Sanfeng intentionally prolonged the fight in order to understand Zhou Zhiruo's true martial arts foundation, how long would the fight take? Would they be able to showcase their real martial arts level? I don't think so.

    You say that is would be a huge deal if Yellow-dressed Lady is as good as Zhang Wuji... why? How would that progress the story? In DGSD, Sweeper Monk stood for enlightenment; Jin Yong was trying to emphasize the inevitability of human suffering, and enlightenment was the only saviour. From that angle it made sense to expose Sweeper Monk's mightier-than-thou martial level. But why would the Yellow-dressed Lady's real martial arts level matter to HSDS?

    If you look at Zhang Sanfeng, his martial arts level was also used as a plot device to expose protagonist Zhang Wuji's mightiness. Remember how Jin Yong conveniently made a comparison to the ROCH Greats when Zhang Sanfeng assessed his level and Zhang Wuji's level. It's true that Jin Yong would not hesitate to shamelessly plug in characters' thoughts to give us information, but he only does so when such information actually matters.
    Last edited by PJ; 03-05-08 at 11:37 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  10. #30
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    I wonder why it took so long for the Yellow Dress Lady to figure out Zhou Zi-ruo's martial arts foundation? The Greats were often able to do this almost instantaneously.
    Last edited by Dennis Chen; 03-06-08 at 02:51 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Well, put the Sweeper Monk or Zhang Sanfeng in the Yellow-dressed Lady's shoes:

    -If Sweeper Monk or Zhang Sanfeng intentionally prolonged the fight in order to understand Zhou Zhiruo's true martial arts foundation, how long would the fight take? Would they be able to showcase their real martial arts level? I don't think so.
    Seriously, I don't think that either of them would have to even fight ZZR to know her level. We're talking about two of the greatest martial artists ever. Take for example how Z3F was able to guage ZWJ's internal power just by looking at his eyes. It wasn't like ZZR had reached a high level where no one could decipher how good she really was.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    You say that is would be a huge deal if Yellow-dressed Lady is as good as Zhang Wuji... why? How would that progress the story? In DGSD, Sweeper Monk stood for enlightenment; Jin Yong was trying to emphasize the inevitability of human suffering, and enlightenment was the only saviour. From that angle it made sense to expose Sweeper Monk's mightier-than-thou martial level. But why would the Yellow-dressed Lady's real martial arts level matter to HSDS?

    If you look at Zhang Sanfeng, his martial arts level was also used as a plot device to expose protagonist Zhang Wuji's mightiness. Remember how Jin Yong conveniently made a comparison to the ROCH Greats when Zhang Sanfeng assessed his level and Zhang Wuji's level. It's true that Jin Yong would not hesitate to shamelessly plug in characters' thoughts to give us information, but he only does so when such information actually matters.
    All I'm saying, is that based on precedence, Lady Yang is probably not a great. I get your points about how her power level is not relevant to the story but in general, anyone who is at great level is a big deal in JY's stories. It's just odd that there was no mention at all of Yang being at such a high level despite her several apperances in the story.

  12. #32
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    Well, Hong Qi couldn't figure out what Yang Guo's martial arts was, but that's because the only person that knew about Lin Chao-ying's martial art was Wang Chong-yang.

    Maybe this is only an indication of how cloistered the Yellow Dress Lady was and not her level.

  13. #33
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    Ah, how did I miss this reply before...

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Seriously, I don't think that either of them would have to even fight ZZR to know her level.
    Alright, let's make the comparison more meaningful.

    We know that Sweeper Monk can execute Jiumozhi in one stance.
    Let's say that Sweeper Monk wants to find out exactly what level
    Jiu has reached in the 72 arts. It is very reasonable that the fight
    would then be prolonged.

    We're talking about two of the greatest martial artists ever. Take for example how Z3F was able to guage ZWJ's internal power just by looking at his eyes.
    It was the combination of feeling Zhang Wuji physically transferring the internal energy to him, AND the look in Zhang Wuji's eyes, that confirmed his internal energy level. But remember, Zhang Wuji was right next to him, so Zhang Sanfeng could gaze into his eyes and see it clearly. Yellow-dressed Lady was quite far from Zhou Zhiruo.

    It wasn't like ZZR had reached a high level where no one could decipher how good she really was.
    Actually, no one present at the conference could see through Zhou Zhiruo's trickery. Even Zhang Wuji was fooled into thinking that she was near a Great; that's why he used ALL his strength to attack her. So if Zhang Wuji, a young Great who was earlier described as "unable to be puzzled by any martial arts", could not see through it, it doesn't subtract from Yellow-dressed Lady's greatness if she didn't see through it either.

    All I'm saying, is that based on precedence, Lady Yang is probably not a great. I get your points about how her power level is not relevant to the story but in general, anyone who is at great level is a big deal in JY's stories. It's just odd that there was no mention at all of Yang being at such a high level despite her several apperances in the story.
    The problem is that Yellow-dressed Lady is a useless character.
    She has nothing to do with the story, and was awkwardly inserted
    for the only reason of having a reference to Yang Guo.
    It's difficult to tell anything about her because Jin Yong
    made her seem so mysterious and fake.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  14. #34
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    Hi,
    was it ever mentioned that YG learned completely 9yin? As I remember he only learned the part of 9yin what WCY left in the tomb and it is only the part of 9yin what can defeat Jade Maiden Sword. The rest WCY didnt leave in the tomb. So YG didnt learn completely the 9yin manual. It is more likely that he completely learned the contrary 9yin from OYF. But even this it is not sure. The time when OYF taught him the contrary 9yin (the same time when XLN was raped), OYF was still confused, so when he recited the contrary 9yin, he mixed a part of Toad Stance in it.
    For the case Lady Yang could learn 9yin what YG left, it is still inferior to the 9yin of GJ. So it is a match between ZWJ/Lady Yang (full 9yang, a big part of original 9yin but not 100 percent) and LCY/WCY (Yue Maiden Sword, Quanzhen Martial Arts and the understanding of 9yin, because WCY never learned/execute 9yin, except the big dipper fomation).
    It is doubtful whether WCY loved LCY as much as YG XLN, so the Yue Maiden Sword cant show its full potential. So even Lady Yang couldnt learn completely 9yin, i think it is still enough to defeat LCY/WCY.
    So it is more likely that ZWJ/Lady Yang will win.
    Last edited by muidi; 04-07-08 at 11:02 AM.

  15. #35
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    How many of you think that Lady Yang can be as good or better than Yang Guo? If not, then ZWJ+Yang will not win against WCY+LCY. Nuff said.

  16. #36
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    ZWJ+Lady Yang combination will lose the first fight. Then ZWJ will somehow happen upon the Ancient Tomb and learn all of WCY and LCY's arts. Then he will win the rematch with ease.

    (hey, it happened all the other times)
    Reverend Rongku prepared himself.

    Suddenly, he toss his hands and screamed: "I am not human! I am an animal!"

    The crowd startled at such a bizarre beginning to the story.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    I know the point that PJ's making, which is why I also mentioned that we know for sure that LCY is on par with WCY. OTOH, there's insufficient evidence to suggest that Lady Yang is a great. We also know that ZWJ never thought she was on the same level as Z3F and himself.
    I wonder about Lady Yang 9yin practice and expertise. She lives in secret place and never get into real fight except with ZZR. We all assume that she knows 9 yin well. But, If most people doubt ZWJ experience is still much below other great, even at the end of HSDS, how about Lady Yang?

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