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Thread: Dugu Qiubai: did Jin Yong mess up his story?

  1. #41
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing View Post
    Disagree. As far as I'm concerned, HIS neither has form, nor is formless. It's basically just swinging very hard. There is NOTHING particularly special, unique, or impressive about that. Quite frankly, give Shi Potian the heavy iron sword, or Xu Zhu the heavy iron sword, without any particularly training, and their HIS would probably be more devastating than Yang Guo's. What's so special about that?
    Actually there is something special about that.
    As pannonian mentioned, Yang Guo gave Qiu Qianren a lot of trouble with the surprising positioning of the Heavy Iron Sword. Ah ha, fans of Surprising Position rejoice (or maybe it's just me and CC ), it doth exist in ROCH too!

    Here is the quote:

    慈恩右掌斜劈,欲以掌力震开他剑锋。可是杨过这路剑法实是独孤求败的绝技,虽然年代相隔久远,不能亲得这位 前辈的传授,但洪水练剑,蛇胆增力,仗着神雕之助,杨过所习剑法已仿怫于当年天下无敌的剑魔。慈恩这一掌击 出,杨过剑锋只稍偏数寸,剑尖仍是指向他左臂。慈恩大骇,向右急闪,才避过了这一剑,

    As some other posters have mentioned, the 'zen-like' nature of elite martial arts in Jinyong, much as with Zen Buddhism itself, thrives in contradiction; to be indescribably complex, but also be incredibly simple.

    To view it another way, at the peak of softness, there is hardness, and when hardness reaches its peak, there is softness. Soft itself is of a truly high level only when it is birthed from hardness, and vice versa.
    True, and HIS itself has more than just a blunt stab. Judging by the deftness and precision of Yang Guo's sword positioning, there is no doubt that HIS embodies great learnings.

    But at the end of the day, HIS has no stance, while Dugu 9 Swords does.

    No stance by itself is not a 'high level'. As is commented in DG9J, when a random person untrained in martial arts strikes out, no one can predict where he will attack, but he will still be easily defeated, because he knows no martial arts. DG9J is at the opposite end of the spectrum; where a person has reached such an incredible in martial arts that from complexity is born simplicity.
    True, true.
    But HIS is still one cut above, because it would be very easy to emulate Dugu 9 Swords with the HIS, but it would be more difficult to emulate HIS with Dugu 9 Swords, since the internal energy requirement is very high. And once you've reached the stage of L->H (wielding a Light weapon as if Heavy), you've basically reached the Wooden Sword stage.

    In fact, the more I think about it, the more similarity I see in HIS and Dugu 9 Swords! This is the essence of heating up a discussion with strong one-sided arguments, so that the opposite side will feel more inclined to pitch in, and then I can take the best of both worlds

    HIS might have no stance aside from the basic attack patterns inherent in all swordplay, but that doesn't necessarily make it particularly profound. Training in it is the equivalent of giving that random person massive internal energy and decent speed, and a very basic idea of swordplay.
    Yes, but remember: Jin Yong's Pre-SPW philosophy was always massive internal energy conquers all. Or to put it a little more elegantly: with a strong internal foundation comes strong power to conquer all fancy techniques.


    I think this is a very weak analogy. LHC's lack of internal strength had nothing to do with DG9J, whereas Yang Guo's internal strength had everything to do with HIS. There's room for further growth with DG9J. I see no room for growth in HIS.
    But HIS is already way more powerful than Dugu 9 Swords. Even when Dugu 9 Swords has reached its zenith, which Linghu Chong still has a long way to go, it would be at best an even match for Heavy Iron Sword theories.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #42
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogeyman View Post
    I told you before why people in SPW would not call DGQB the "DEMONIC SWORDSMAN". It's because only one person knew of his story, and he was Feng Qingyang. Feng Qingyang is like the descendant of DGQB, so why the heck would he call his ancestor a "demon"?

    He later relayed the story to Linghu Chong, omitting the part about the "DEMONIC SWORDSMAN". So how in the world would other people know if FQY don't tell?
    I don't see why Feng Qingyang can't refer to Dugu Qiubai as Demonic Swordsman. I mean heck, Dugu Qiubai HIMSELF wanted to be referred to as Demonic Swordsman -- this was written on his tomb! I believe it was Dugu Qiubai's intention (at least in ROCH) to be KNOWN as the Demonic Swordsman. By not complying with this wish, Feng Qingyang is actually being an ungrateful tink.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #43
    Senior Member Ren Ying Ying's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But at the end of the day, HIS has no stance, while Dugu 9 Swords does.
    dugu 9 sword is a rather "board" art. on one hand, it is emphesizes the theory of "freedom of movement" which allows users to improvise. for most of the story, LHC was pretty much making things up as he goes. yet, another part of it is the "general index", which i imagine gives general principles & guidelines (ie. LHC blinding 15 swordsman with "breaking arrow stance"). but, the fact is that dugu 9swords does not limit one's movement to only the guidelines...which is what formless is.

    Similarily, HIS also has "form" in a sense. YG had to think hard about how to swing his sword for the maximum efficiency. While he is not entirely restricted to the movements that he practiced, he nevertheless strikes his sword according to the guidelines he practiced.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    But HIS is already way more powerful than Dugu 9 Swords. Even when Dugu 9 Swords has reached its zenith, which Linghu Chong still has a long way to go, it would be at best an even match for Heavy Iron Sword theories.
    but...the HIS is utterly limited to one's internal power. and what was the raw purpose of technique? i imagine technique is used to overcome opponents who have more power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post

    Personally, I think when Jin Yong was pressured into writing more about Yang Guo, he wanted to come up with someothing exciting, and the result was Sad Palms. Even though it has nothing to do with the sword art that Yang Guo dedicated many years to practice, I think Jin Yong just wanted to insert it for the hell of it.

    So, I agree that Yang Guo NEVER completed the wooden sword stage. There's no hint that he did. But I also believe that Jin Yong f*cked up the last part of his story regarding his post-16 years martial arts.
    Look at the thread I made regarding this last week. I was arguing that JY had decided retroactively that YG didn't really learn DGQB's swordsmanship the right way, even though he had originally intended for YG's way to be correct. As much as I hate retconning, it actually makes sense for JY to change his mind in this case. All YG knew about DGQB's swordsmanship were the vague descriptions about his career and whatever he can infer from training with the condor. As smart as the condor was, there's only so much that YG can learn from a bird that can neither talk nor wield a sword. It would have been really farfetched, even for a Wuxia novel, if YG can somehow duplicate DGQB's swordsmanship simply from the little info that he had. YG learned DGQB's internal power cultivation methods but little of DGQB's swordsmanship, other than the fundamental philosophy of formlessness.


    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    But HIS is already way more powerful than Dugu 9 Swords. Even when Dugu 9 Swords has reached its zenith, which Linghu Chong still has a long way to go, it would be at best an even match for Heavy Iron Sword theories.
    That's only because you're assuming that someone with DG9J won't have the same internal power as someone with HIS. Just because YG ismore powerful than LHC, it doesn't mean that the HIS theories are superior. Any other great from the LOCH/ROCH era is more powerful with a sword than LHC too? Does it mean that their swordplay is more advanced than DG9J? Of course not. It simply meant that their internal power is stronger. If LHC had the same level of internal power as YG, he should easily beat YG's swordplay with DG9J.

    In SPW, JY actually did address the issue of whether internal power or technique is more important in swordsmanship. Although we were never given a direct answer, I think it's quite clear that technique is far more important in swordsmanship than internal power.

    JY recognized the way YG trained with the HIS as giving him an edge over LHC in terms of internal power. In terms of swordsmanship though, YG learned a lot less than LHC from DGQB. Do you honestly believe that a phrase "simplicity can overcome complexity" contains more useful info than the whole set of DG9J theories? Even if FQY's DG9J was incomplete, it sure is a lot more useful than telling a student "simplicity is greater than complexity."

    Based on the evidence, I believe that whatever swordplay YG praticed with the HIS, it was mostly of his own creation and had little to do with how DGQB actually wielded a sword. Like I said before, JY had originally intended for YG to be along the right path but as he gained experience, he realized otherwise.

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    I think a lot of the disagreement here is over the definition of formlessness.

    The chinese characters "wu zhao" literally translate to "no form", but remember that the Chinese language is very metaphorical. "No form" doesn't necessarily mean "without form" in the literal sense. I think its meaning encompasses more the idea that there is no confining form, and thusly being able to assume all forms.

    You can almost see the progression of this idea as the epitome of martial arts in both the chronologies of Jin Yong and Gu Long. I remember reading an article that stated Jin Yong and Gu Long frequently discussed martial arts theories with each other, and this idea of formless form came about slowly and as a collaborative effort from both.

    Consequentially, we can see how each author put their own interpretation into it. For Jin Yong, it became Dugu 9 Jian, the idea of having no formal form, but being able to incorporate all forms as the user wishes. The main point of formless form is to make it impossible for the opponent to counter. If you have no form that can be predicted, then the opponent can't react or think of a plan of attack. That is not to say a person who never learned martial arts is formless (just because they strike randomly and have no formal form). This was stated very explicitly by Jin Yong.

    In my humble opinion, Heavy Iron Sword and the various other things written, specifically, "overcoming the sword without a sword" were probably Jin Yong's earliest interpretations of formlessness before he had it all drawn out. While Dugu 9 Jian, especially in Chapter 10 of XAJH, represents his complete and most refined expulsion of his interpretation of formlessness. He goes very in-depth laying out the underlying concepts of "dynamic learning, dynamic execution", "sword intent", and "overcoming technique with no [confining] technique".

    In addition, from the thread I bumped earlier, the consensus seemed to be that Dugu 9 Jian was a sword technique that trained the user how to approach the ideas of formlessness that Dugu Qiubai probably developed in his much later years, after he accumulated all his knowledge into one.
    Last edited by bliss; 03-14-08 at 11:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post

    Similarily, HIS also has "form" in a sense. YG had to think hard about how to swing his sword for the maximum efficiency. While he is not entirely restricted to the movements that he practiced, he nevertheless strikes his sword according to the guidelines he practiced.
    Yes, YG had to think hard because his HIS techniques were basically his own creations.

    Quote Originally Posted by bliss View Post

    In my humble opinion, Heavy Iron Sword and the various other things written, specifically, "overcoming the sword without a sword" were probably Jin Yong's earliest interpretations of formlessness before he had it all drawn out. While Dugu 9 Jian, especially in Chapter 10 of XAJH, represents his complete and most refined expulsion of his interpretation of formlessness. He goes very in-depth laying out the underlying concepts of "dynamic learning, dynamic execution", "sword intent", and "overcoming technique with no [confining] technique".

    The problem I have with believing that YG's HIS theories are closer to DGQB's formlessness than DG9J is simply because YG basically had nothing to go on except the phrase "simplicity can overcome complexity." Isn't it really farfetched to believe that YG learned more about DGQB's swordsmanship from that phrase alone than all the DG9J theories in SPW? That phrase was a description of DGQB's abilities and not actual techniques like DG9J. As we saw in ROCH, YG was talented enough to wield the HIS in an effective manner without any teacher other than the condor. However, at the end of ROCH, YG's swordsmanship still hadn't advanced to the level where he could be just as effective without a HIS. In fact, his swordsmanship was kinda limited when using a normal sword, because it was so based on power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Yes, YG had to think hard because his HIS techniques were basically his own creations.

    The problem I have with believing that YG's HIS theories are closer to DGQB's formlessness than DG9J is simply because YG basically had nothing to go on except the phrase "simplicity can overcome complexity." Isn't it really farfetched to believe that YG learned more about DGQB's swordsmanship from that phrase alone than all the DG9J theories in SPW? That phrase was a description of DGQB's abilities and not actual techniques like DG9J. As we saw in ROCH, YG was talented enough to wield the HIS in an effective manner without any teacher other than the condor. However, at the end of ROCH, YG's swordsmanship still hadn't advanced to the level where he could be just as effective without a HIS. In fact, his swordsmanship was kinda limited when using a normal sword, because it was so based on power.
    I agree. I think Yang Guo misinterpreted formlessness as being simplicity. Heavy Iron Sword was still one of Dugu's earlier stages. I think in his later stages Dugu realized true formlessness is in the ability to incorporate and encompass all forms.

    Coincidentally, Bruce Lee had pretty much the same martial arts philosophy behind Jeet Kune Do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    I can rephrase it for Dugu 9 Swords:

    "Your sword has unbelievable adaptability and you wield it with tremendous proficiency. But it has a weakness. Your internal strength sucks and I can blast you dead with a LDA. You cannot defeat me."
    Ridiculous. Why can't DG9J be wielded with internal energy? Half the time LHC used a thrust instead of a slash. Such an attack powered by strong internal energy has the capability to react as well as deal heavy damage. With the HIS, reaction is physically hampered by the weapon. Furthermore, a blast of LDA has concussive force which can be mitigated by abundant internal energy while a sword emits a cutting chi that is much more difficult to deal with.



    Besides, the most important thing with bladed weapons is to land a hit. It doesn't matter as much how much damage you do as long as you can actually inflict serious damage. A sharp sword stab with solid internal energy can easily deal fatal damage in JY canon. So why waste so much energy with an "unstoppable" attack when all that effort is completely useless with a simple half-sidestep thrust? Dodging at the last second by a hair's breadth is always done at the high level. Blow are countered and evaded with pin-point precision. If you're being hampered by a tremendously unwieldy weapon, your full potential is stopped.



    I'm going to reiterate though. The HIS is limited to the 9 basic sword strokes. It simply can not (physically) and does not (philosophically) do anything else. If the surprise factor of the weapon (its indestructibility and its extraordinary mass) was removed, a master of comparative level should be able to deal with it.

    How can the HIS be faster than a lighter sword if both have similar ability? How can the simplistic arcs and stabs of the HIS not easily be predicted when far quicker and maneuverable swords can have their paths be tracked accurately? How can such a sword not be evaded if the target is aware of its properties?


    Right, you can see how Dugu 9 Swords with its surprising positions would work, but not the HIS.
    I can EASILY see a "surprising position" as you put it in such derogatory terms working out. It's simple geometry after you realize that all attacks must have a target. There's a reason why a proper Saber Fencer has almost 3 feet of range advantage in reach over a two-handed katana wielder (who would have other advantages... I'm not saying the fencer wins).



    True enough, I suppose. But I can say that Dugu 9 Swords is definitely not the technique to be used with HIS. HIS was almost completely based on internal energy. Linghu Chong in the early part of the story would have trouble PICKING UP the damn 80 pound sword, let alone use it in combat.
    Unless you count the internal energy clashed LHC, that is patently not true. A non-martial artist can pick up 80 pounds, much less a trained and fairly skilled martial artist like LHC who had a solid internal energy base (although not yet abundant).
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 03:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    Ridiculous. Why can't DG9J be wielded with internal energy? Half the time LHC used a thrust instead of a slash. Such an attack powered by strong internal energy has the capability to react as well as deal heavy damage. With the HIS, reaction is physically hampered by the weapon. Furthermore, a blast of LDA has concussive force which can be mitigated by abundant internal energy while a sword emits a cutting chi that is much more difficult to deal with.
    Dugu 9 Swords is NOT meant to be wielded with high internal energy, that's just not what it's designed for. HIS is the answer to that. If you can't see that, then you're just blind. Dugu 9 Swords is a BASIC training art to bring a newbie such as Linghu Chong up to speed in the progression towards formlessness. When he reaches the level that Yang Guo has reached with HIS, he no longer needs Dugu 9 Swords. Think of HIS as a simplified and more advanced version of Dugu 9 Swords because you have already cultivated enough internal energy and are ready to move on to the next step.

    Think about it: HIS already encompasses everything that Dugu 9 Swords offers. Palm-Breaking Stance? That's what Yang Guo did with Qiu Qianren! The famous Qi-Breaking Stance that Linghu Chong has yet to reach? Yang Guo triumphed with that over Golden Wheel Monk!

    In my opinion, Dugu 9 Swords is what a newbie such as Linghu Chong need in order to get to the point where he doesn't need it any more --> which is exactly what Yang Guo has already achieved.

    How can the HIS be faster than a lighter sword if both have similar ability? How can the simplistic arcs and stabs of the HIS not easily be predicted when far quicker and maneuverable swords can have their paths be tracked accurately? How can such a sword not be evaded if the target is aware of its properties?
    You need to think about why the Heavenly Weapon, a large and heavy weapon, is so feared.

    I can EASILY see a "surprising position" as you put it in such derogatory terms working out. It's simple geometry after you realize that all attacks must have a target. There's a reason why a proper Saber Fencer has almost 3 feet of range advantage in reach over a two-handed katana wielder (who would have other advantages... I'm not saying the fencer wins).
    Yes, and blinding 15 experts' 30 eyes when he's half dead?
    Some real surprising position it must be!

    Unless you count the internal energy clashed LHC, that is patently not true. A non-martial artist can pick up 80 pounds, much less a trained and fairly skilled martial artist like LHC who had a solid internal energy base (although not yet abundant).
    I'm not saying he can't pick it up at all, but he would have major trouble wielding it effectively in real combat. Thus not prepared to use it unless he gains more internal energy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Ying Ying View Post
    but...the HIS is utterly limited to one's internal power.
    Well that's the whole point of HIS!
    Internal energy trumps all.
    Jin Yong stated so in ROCH.

    and what was the raw purpose of technique? i imagine technique is used to overcome opponents who have more power.
    Technique can overcome opponents with more raw power, but the vice versa can be said as well: internal energy can overcome opponents with better technique. Jin Yong already confirmed this with Golden Wheel Monk and Xiao Longnu. Goldie would have crushed Xiao Longnu if he used more force.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Dugu 9 Swords is NOT meant to be wielded with high internal energy, that's just not what it's designed for. HIS is the answer to that. If you can't see that, then you're just blind. Dugu 9 Swords is a BASIC training art to bring a newbie such as Linghu Chong up to speed in the progression towards formlessness. When he reaches the level that Yang Guo has reached with HIS, he no longer needs Dugu 9 Swords. Think of HIS as a simplified and more advanced version of Dugu 9 Swords because you have already cultivated enough internal energy and are ready to move on to the next step.
    You'd be quite blind to see that LHC was a special case where it brought LHC up to speed EXTREMELY quickly. Going by the normal route of at least another decade even for a talented individual to master it, there's no indication that it's not like ANY OTHER MARTIAL ART where you have both internal energy and technique.


    Think about it: HIS already encompasses everything that Dugu 9 Swords offers. Palm-Breaking Stance? That's what Yang Guo did with Qiu Qianren! The famous Qi-Breaking Stance that Linghu Chong has yet to reach? Yang Guo triumphed with that over Golden Wheel Monk!
    Both incorrect examples. QQR was surprised by the weapon and put into a poor position. Run that fight again with QQR in a clear mind and YG would have lost. Against GWM that's an even poorer example. YG lost out the internal energy fight until XLN intervened. If we IGNORE XLN, then we have YG trying to sneak in and use his sleeve to strike GWM. So much for SIMPLICITY.




    Yes, and blinding 15 experts' 30 eyes when he's half dead?
    Some real surprising position it must be!
    Not a surprising position. It was a random burst of illogical speed. Quite different. Besides, I explained how it could have been possible in the other post.

    In any case, one of the most blatant disregards of reality of DG9J has NOTHING to do with a "surprising position".



    I'm not saying he can't pick it up at all, but he would have major trouble wielding it effectively in real combat. Thus not prepared to use it unless he gains more internal energy.
    A normal practicioner of DG9J would have had to train diligently for over a decade just to compete with the masters of wulin according to FCY. Even training orthodox Huashan internal energy for that long would give you a solid base.


    Technique can overcome opponents with more raw power, but the vice versa can be said as well: internal energy can overcome opponents with better technique. Jin Yong already confirmed this with Golden Wheel Monk and Xiao Longnu. Goldie would have crushed Xiao Longnu if he used more force.
    So you DO get it. Extremely high technique can make up for lower internal energy just as extremely high internal energy can make up for lower technique. But having both is still better.

    HIS is high internal energy coupled with little technique. The little technique part is forced by the weapon itself.

    DG9J is high technique period. There's no reason and in fact it'd be ridiculous to not work on internal energy as well. And this is only if you're working from ZERO. If DGQB really invented DG9J after HIS, then he naturally already had powerful internal energy to back up his strokes.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 01:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Dugu 9 Swords is NOT meant to be wielded with high internal energy, that's just not what it's designed for. HIS is the answer to that. If you can't see that, then you're just blind. Dugu 9 Swords is a BASIC training art to bring a newbie such as Linghu Chong up to speed in the progression towards formlessness. When he reaches the level that Yang Guo has reached with HIS, he no longer needs Dugu 9 Swords. Think of HIS as a simplified and more advanced version of Dugu 9 Swords because you have already cultivated enough internal energy and are ready to move on to the next step.
    Like I said before, YG's HIS techniques aren't like DGQB's sword techniques at all and therefore there's no way that it's a more advanced version of DG9J. What you say about YG's feats is true but keep in mind that YG accomplished those feats with the HIS. He failed miserably 16 yrs later with a normal sword against BWM. In fact, it seems the pre-handicaped YG fared better with a normal sword against the BWM. YG's growth as a swordsman was stunted because he was too myopic to think beyond using a sword with power. If anything, that proves the HIS techniques are for newbies because they can increase one's internal power quickly. OTOH, DG9J is a MA that can allow one's ability with a sword to keep growing with no limit.


    Clearly, there's more to being a great swordsman than swinging a sword with a lot of power. If the pinnacle of swordsmanship is just a lot of internal power, which is what you're arguing, why even bother to pratice with a sword at all? There're many different ways to attain high internal power.
    JY basically answered this question in SPW. With regards to swordsmanship, technique is more important than internal power. Basically, there's nothing that disprove what JY said about YG having a lot of internal power but was somewhat a mediocre swordsman.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    Look at the thread I made regarding this last week. I was arguing that JY had decided retroactively that YG didn't really learn DGQB's swordsmanship the right way, even though he had originally intended for YG's way to be correct.
    Do you think that Jin Yong already had a change of heart when he wrote the last part of ROCH? And then he waited 7 (?) more years to put this down on paper? Or is it more likely that the change of heart was gradual, and finally matured 7 years later.

    As much as I hate retconning, it actually makes sense for JY to change his mind in this case. All YG knew about DGQB's swordsmanship were the vague descriptions about his career and whatever he can infer from training with the condor. As smart as the condor was, there's only so much that YG can learn from a bird that can neither talk nor wield a sword. It would have been really farfetched, even for a Wuxia novel, if YG can somehow duplicate DGQB's swordsmanship simply from the little info that he had. YG learned DGQB's internal power cultivation methods but little of DGQB's swordsmanship, other than the fundamental philosophy of formlessness.
    Yes, I agree mostly with that. Dugu Qiubai's condor was able to teach Yang Guo the internal generation aspect, but not the techniques of the swordplay... but then, the question remains: was there any technique to be taught? HIS is simple and effective. There wasn't any technique to it.

    Even though Brother Condor could not have taught Yang Guo Dugu 9 Swords the same way that Feng Qingyang taught Linghu Chong Dugu 9 Swords, I believe that in fact Yang Guo doesn't need to know Dugu 9 Swords, because HIS already encompasses everything Dugu 9 Swords can do a more. Even though the theories and execution behind Dug 9 Swords and HIS are quite different, they i fact achieve the same thing: simplicity overcomes complexity. Just because Yang Guo doesn't rely on swordplay principles as much as Linghu Chong, doesn't make his way, his result, any less bona fide.

    Here is what I wrote to ChronoReverse:

    Dugu 9 Swords is a BASIC training art to bring a newbie such as Linghu Chong up to speed in the progression towards formlessness. When he reaches the level that Yang Guo has reached with HIS, he no longer needs Dugu 9 Swords. Think of HIS as a simplified and more advanced version of Dugu 9 Swords because you have already cultivated enough internal energy and are ready to move on to the next step.

    Think about it: HIS already encompasses everything that Dugu 9 Swords offers. Palm-Breaking Stance? That's what Yang Guo did with Qiu Qianren! The famous Qi-Breaking Stance that Linghu Chong has yet to reach? Yang Guo triumphed with that over Golden Wheel Monk!

    In my opinion, Dugu 9 Swords is what a newbie such as Linghu Chong need in order to get to the point where he doesn't need it any more --> which is exactly what Yang Guo has already achieved.


    That's only because you're assuming that someone with DG9J won't have the same internal power as someone with HIS. Just because YG ismore powerful than LHC, it doesn't mean that the HIS theories are superior. Any other great from the LOCH/ROCH era is more powerful with a sword than LHC too? Does it mean that their swordplay is more advanced than DG9J? Of course not. It simply meant that their internal power is stronger. If LHC had the same level of internal power as YG, he should easily beat YG's swordplay with DG9J.
    In my opinion, Yang Guo IS Linghu Chong + more internal energy.

    In SPW, JY actually did address the issue of whether internal power or technique is more important in swordsmanship. Although we were never given a direct answer, I think it's quite clear that technique is far more important in swordsmanship than internal power.
    To be honest, I think you're too tied into to the concept of swordsmanship as presented in SPW. Swordsmanship isn't just one thing. There are many ways to achieve great swordsmanship. For example, the "No Sword" stage could mean executing sword qi with your finger, as 6MSJ does; but it could also mean using your opponent's sword, as Ximen Chuixie did. They're both "No Sword," but they do not employ the same method.

    Likewise, Dugu 9 Swords stresses technique over internal energy. So? HIS stresses internal energy over technique, and we saw how powerful it was -- Yang Guo defeated Xiaoxiang Zi, Ni Moxing, and Yin Kexi each in one stance.

    Here is a good point of reflection: Since you think that technique is more important than internal energy, why don't we have a contest between internal energy-centric Yang Guo as presented in chapter 26 of ROCH, -vs- technique-centric Linghu Chong as presented in chapter 26 of SPW (at the time of meeting Chongxu). Let's pit HIS' specialty against Dugu 9 Swords' specialty. Which exponent would win? Of course, Yang Guo would kick Linghu Chong's ***.

    And you were saying?

    Even in SPW, can Linghu Chong in chapter 20 beat more internal energy-centric Ren Woxing? Can Linghu Chong in chapter 26 beat internal energy-prepared Priest Chongxu? You can't even say for sure that he can beat those internally prepared guys, let alone Yang Guo from the Condor Trilogy.

    Based on the evidence, I believe that whatever swordplay YG praticed with the HIS, it was mostly of his own creation and had little to do with how DGQB actually wielded a sword. Like I said before, JY had originally intended for YG to be along the right path but as he gained experience, he realized otherwise.
    There are textual quotes specifically saying that Yang Guo practiced the same thing that Dugu Qiubai practiced! If Jin Yong wanted to he had 30 years of time to change those small excerpts. But he didn't.

    Well, let me give a short summary of what I believe:

    1. Yang Guo learned the HIS as Dugu Qiubai created.

    2. HIS does not have much that Yang Guo didn't learn.

    3. Condor is not able to each Yang Guo techniques, but HIS doesn't have any technioque.

    4. HIS = Dugu 9 Swords + more internal energy.

    5. Yang Guo = Linghu Chong + more internal energy.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    That's just assertion though. We see YG beat some relative grunts with the HIS and one crazed QQR who went weaponless against a supreme weapon.

    We also see LHC beat some relative grunts with a random sword while half dead.

    There's no true indication that LHC would definitely lose against YG if LHC had proper control of his internal energy such that he can still dodge.

    You're still missing the point of DG9J. Your opponent should never hit you. All the power in the world would not matter if you miss your target.

    And this is still just martial arts in general.



    In any case, I'll bring up the illogical point about HIS again. IF brute power is so great and all, how can martial arts allow those with less physical strength to not only beat really physically strong fighters, but even EASILY beat them?

    I propose that the HIS is a even more special weapon than we anticipated. It has the ability to make your opponents FORGET THEIR MARTIAL ARTS. Clearly when this weapon is unleashed, your opponents will never dodge.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 02:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    To be honest, I think you're too tied into to the concept of swordsmanship as presented in SPW. Swordsmanship isn't just one thing. There are many ways to achieve great swordsmanship.
    There's where I think you're wrong. You're equating greater power with greater swordsmanship. Even before reading JY's interview, I thought that YG was a great martial artist but not a great swordsman. What JY said merely confirmed what my suspicions.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Here is a good point of reflection: Since you think that technique is more important than internal energy, why don't we have a contest between internal energy-centric Yang Guo as presented in chapter 26 of ROCH, -vs- technique-centric Linghu Chong as presented in chapter 26 of SPW (at the time of meeting Chongxu). Let's pit HIS' specialty against Dugu 9 Swords' specialty. Which exponent would win? Of course, Yang Guo would kick Linghu Chong's ***.
    Anyone with YG's level of internal power would beat LHC though. Does that mean that they're all better swordsmen than LHC?

    YG's performance against BWM showed that his sword techniques were useless against someone with equal power. Do you really believe that DGQB was only able to beat someone with his sword when the opponent has less internal power? If so, DGQB really wasn't much of a swordsman.


    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    Even in SPW, can Linghu Chong in chapter 20 beat more internal energy-centric Ren Woxing? Can Linghu Chong in chapter 26 beat internal energy-prepared Priest Chongxu? You can't even say for sure that he can beat those internally prepared guys, let alone Yang Guo from the Condor Trilogy.
    He did beat them both though in swordsmanship. Both of them would admit their skills with a sword are inferior. You're again confusing greater power with greater swordsmanship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post

    Well, let me give a short summary of what I believe:

    1. Yang Guo learned the HIS as Dugu Qiubai created.

    2. HIS does not have much that Yang Guo didn't learn.

    3. Condor is not able to each Yang Guo techniques, but HIS doesn't have any technioque.

    4. HIS = Dugu 9 Swords + more internal energy.

    5. Yang Guo = Linghu Chong + more internal energy.
    The Condor praticed with YG and helped him train physically the same way DGQB did. It was basically a weight training regimen. Where's the proof that YG learn to use the HIS as DGQB did? The phrase that "simplicity is greater than complexity" contains just as much info about wielding a sword as DG9J?

    Based on what you say, basically any great can just use the HIS and reach the same level as DGQB's swordsmanship during the HIS level. You're basically arguing that learning no technique at all is better than learning DG9J. Somehow, I doubt that's what simplicity is about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse View Post
    That's just assertion though. We see YG beat some relative grunts with the HIS and one crazed QQR who went weaponless against a supreme weapon.

    We also see LHC beat some relative grunts with a random sword while half dead.

    There's no true indication that LHC would definitely lose against YG if LHC had proper control of his internal energy such that he can still dodge.
    There's definitive indication that Xiao Feng can definitely beat the One-Armed Nun either. Most of the things we believe are totally in the eye of the beholder. There's no definitive conclusion.

    You're still missing the point of DG9J. Your opponent should never hit you. All the power in the world would not matter if you miss your target.
    And this is still just martial arts in general.[/quote]

    If it's martial arts in general then HIS would share the same attribute. But we know that Linghu Chong did get hit by Dongfang Bubai's needle. In fact, if Yang Guo is faster than Linghu Chong (which isn't all that unlikely, since movement speed does tend to increase with internal energy, and LHC was never particularly trained in speed), then Linghu Chong can say goodbye to his surprising positions.

    In any case, I'll bring up the illogical point about HIS again. IF brute power is so great and all, how can martial arts allow those with less physical strength to not only beat really physically strong fighters, but even EASILY beat them?
    Not sure if I understand you ...

    HIS is not brute PHYSICAL strength, but brute INTERNAL strength. There are plenty of examples in Jin Yong universe where brutal force (simplicity) overcomes fancy techniques. Xiao Feng is one of the best examples. At Juxian Manor, he smashed through Reverend Xuannan's Heaven and Earth in Sleeves with just one straight-forward stroke.

    How to beat opponents stronger than you? HIS gives the user a huge advantage by being a powerful weapon. Just look at Qiu Qianren and Golden Wheel Monk, both had more internal energy than Yang Guo, but both lost (and would have lost even in a fair combat).

    I propose that the HIS is a even more special weapon than we anticipated. It has the ability to make your opponents FORGET THEIR MARTIAL ARTS. Clearly when this weapon is unleashed, your opponents will never dodge.
    Seriously, HIS is just a weapon that frightens the opponent. Golden Wheel Monk did not dare go near it. If he didn't have his 5 wheels to throw, he would have been in more trouble.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Wudi View Post
    There's where I think you're wrong. You're equating greater power with greater swordsmanship. Even before reading JY's interview, I thought that YG was a great martial artist but not a great swordsman. What JY said merely confirmed what my suspicions.
    Which begs the question: what exactly are we debating about?

    Is it about which art embodies a greater sense of swordsmanship?

    If that's the case, then yes, Dugu 9 Swords embodies more swordsmanship than HIS.

    But being a more swordsmanship-centric art does not make Dugu 9 Swords better than HIS in general.

    Anyone with YG's level of internal power would beat LHC though. Does that mean that they're all better swordsmen than LHC?
    I'm not saying anyone can beat LHC.
    I'm saying Yang Guo with Dugu Qiubai's Heavy Iron Sword in ROCH would beat Linghu Chong with Dugu Qiubai's Dugu 9 Swords in SPW.

    YG's performance against BWM showed that his sword techniques were useless against someone with equal power.
    No, it doesn't. It showed that Yang Guo made a bad judgment to thrust a delicate sword straight into a superior weapon. It doesn't mean Yang Guo would always do that. In fact, I believe it was simply a bad judgment due to his pride.

    Do you really believe that DGQB was only able to beat someone with his sword when the opponent has less internal power?
    Personally, I don't believe that.
    However, there's no proof that Dugu Qiubai did beat stronger opponents either.
    We only know that he couldn't find an equal during the later point of his life,
    but nowhere was it stated that he could defeat stronger opponents.
    However, if Dugu Qiubai really did use Dugu 9 Swords in his 20s/30s,
    then we can safely believe that he did indeed beat stronger opponents.
    Please stay with me for a moment, as I have more to say about this coming up.

    He did beat them both though in swordsmanship. Both of them would admit their skills with a sword are inferior. You're again confusing greater power with greater swordsmanship.
    Yes, Linghu Chong did beat them in swordsmanship. And yet, he may or may not be able to beat them in a contest of martial arts where all of them use the sword. In my opinion, the fact that Chongxu and Ren Woxing's swordplay have fused with their internal energy makes it very difficult for Linghu Chong to overcome.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    If it's martial arts in general then HIS would share the same attribute. But we know that Linghu Chong did get hit by Dongfang Bubai's needle. In fact, if Yang Guo is faster than Linghu Chong (which isn't all that unlikely, since movement speed does tend to increase with internal energy, and LHC was never particularly trained in speed), then Linghu Chong can say goodbye to his surprising positions.
    Faster than LHC isn't good enough. TBG was faster than LHC to the point LHC couldn't do anything back. LHC EASILY beat him because he learned to read TBG's moves.

    DFBB's speed is beyond just "fast". Plus he had at least as strong internal energy as LHC. His technique, while not special, was also not terribly weak. DFBB won with the virtue that his speed was so far above his opponents that even LHC's merely high technique and RWX's merely high internal energy couldn't compete.


    HIS is not brute PHYSICAL strength, but brute INTERNAL strength. There are plenty of examples in Jin Yong universe where brutal force (simplicity) overcomes fancy techniques. Xiao Feng is one of the best examples. At Juxian Manor, he smashed through Reverend Xuannan's Heaven and Earth in Sleeves with just one straight-forward stroke.
    The ability to time a last second counter is technique. It's even brilliant technique in GL canon. And we know that XF definitely had great technique. It comes back to the whole limited by the martial artist itself part of SPW. How do you tell when the best time to strike is for the counter? It's up to the martial artist's understanding and ability.


    How to beat opponents stronger than you? HIS gives the user a huge advantage by being a powerful weapon. Just look at Qiu Qianren and Golden Wheel Monk, both had more internal energy than Yang Guo, but both lost (and would have lost even in a fair combat).
    I JUST mentioned how that is not true. The weaker case QQR went weaponless and was in a crazed state of mind. Perhaps YG would win even if QQR wasn't going nuts.

    The stronger one is GWM who was winning against YG. YG had to resort to trickery going completely against HIS theories (although he was saved by the intervention of XLN).

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    You're giving HIS an unfair advantage in the end. The HIS gets a special weapon, massive internal energy as well as the opponents forgetting how to evade and counter.

    Meanwhile, you're making out DG9J to use a normal sword and to lack internal energy.


    But that's clearly impossible for the normal usage of DG9J. LHC learned DG9J far faster than FCY did. Yet FCY didn't think LHC would master DG9J for at least another decade of DILIGENT training. With the Huashan internal energy formula LHC had, he'd naturally gain good internal energy along with DG9J.

    And FCY was right. LHC gained great benefit from dueling with RWX and CX and the like, but he still wasn't on their levels yet.





    In any case, if we're talking PURELY sword. Then DG9J is better and you even just acknowledged that.

    If we're going to talk in complete martial arts, then there's no reason to make the DG9J use have no internal energy. Why would the DG9J user put such a limit on himself? The whole philosophy was able NOT limiting yourself.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 03-15-08 at 03:07 PM.

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